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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ana Gram View Post
    I'd have to completely disagree with you there. Israel has made abundantly clear that they want Palestine destroyed. Killing civilians, specifically children has been referred to as 'mowing the lawn'.

    And I can criticise Israel without supporting Hamas.
    Can you provide an example where Israel has intentionally killed civilians/children? There will sometimes be collateral damage during military action, and I'm sure that Israel take steps with every attack to minimise any collateral damage. I would love to hear your examples of this civilian/children targeting.

    Do you criticise Hamas?
    I have not heard one member on this forum criticise Hamas's stance against women and homosexuals.

  2. #12
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    Default Greens and Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Can you provide an example where Israel has intentionally killed civilians/children? There will sometimes be collateral damage during military action, and I'm sure that Israel take steps with every attack to minimise any collateral damage. I would love to hear your examples of this civilian/children targeting.
    I don't know if either side intentionally target civillian's. I'm not in their "war room" and neither are you. But I would bet that neither side really care how many civillian's get hurt or killed in these attacks.

    I don't know the name of the school, but it was on the ABC News a couple of days ago. No one was hurt as the school had been evacuated. But I did find this http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...sidential-area

    You can argue the text is bias, but hard to argue with the video.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Californication View Post
    I don't know if either side intentionally target civillian's. I'm not in their "war room" and neither are you. But I would bet that neither side really care how many civillian's get hurt or killed in these attacks.

    I don't know the name of the school, but it was on the ABC News a couple of days ago. No one was hurt as the school had been evacuated. But I did find this http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...sidential-area

    You can argue the text is bias, but hard to argue with the video.
    I disagree. The Israelis would care how many civilians get hurt.

    That video does not show what or who the target was.

    If they did in fact target a school, would you not think that the story would be plastered all over the internet? I'm sure the Greens would be raising it in parliament if that did occur.

    Attacks against a specific target is a hell of a lot better than hundreds of indiscriminate rocket attacks.

    I would like to know. What do you think Israel should do?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Both sides DO NOT think the solution is to bomb each other. Israel would be more than happy to live in peace. It just so happens that the Palestinians refuse to allow Israel to exist. That is why they have been launching hundreds of rockets into Israel all year. Israel has shown great restraint in waiting so long before retaliating with a targeted attack on a leader.

    I do not see how you can view them as the same.
    Here is a link to the story about the Palestinian kid shot dead while playing soccer.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/09/wo...nce/index.html

    Here is a link to a story about when Israel bombed schools in Gaza in 2009.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...a-israel-obama

    Both are examples of Israel deliberately targeting civilians.

    If you want more evidence of Israel deliberately targeting civilians, read Norman G. Finkelstein's books This Time We Went Too Far and Goldstone Recants, which are about Operation Cast Lead.

    Then there is the fact that Israeli military has a record of using cluster bombs and white phosphorous bombs, both of which are clealry indiscriminate weapons.

    Here are some more links to reports about the Israeli military deliberately targeting civilians.

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/05/20/i...order-protests

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/04/12/i...vilians-attack

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/04/05/g...els-war-record

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israe...ors-2012-11-19

    http://www.cpj.org/2012/11/in-gaza-n...ts-injured.php

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ma...y-1305571.html

    They are really not hard to find.

    Regarding your argument about recognising Israel's right to exist:

    - Israel has never defined its borders.

    - Israel has never recognised Palestine's right to exist.

    - Fatah recognises Israel's right to exist but Israel continues to occupy the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

    - I do not believe Israel should be a nation for Jews. Instead, I believe Israel should be a nation for Israelis.

    Regarding that Hamas official Israel recently assassinated, thereby breaking the truce:

    http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=14385

    And here's a report that Californication's link links to.

    http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/in...d=145:in-focus
    Last edited by nasalhaironfire; 23-11-2012 at 13:04.

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  6. #15
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    Here are examples of recent advice from particular Israeli officials on how the Israeli military should treat Palestinian civilians.

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...c-figures-urge

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...gaza-slaughter

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...c-figures-urge

  7. #16
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    Here is some more information about the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2...campaign=sm_tw

  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nasalhaironfire View Post
    Here is a link to the story about the Palestinian kid shot dead while playing soccer.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/09/wo...nce/index.html

    Here is a link to a story about when Israel bombed schools in Gaza in 2009.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...a-israel-obama

    Both are examples of Israel deliberately targeting civilians.

    If you want more evidence of Israel deliberately targeting civilians, read Norman G. Finkelstein's books This Time We Went Too Far and Goldstone Recants, which are about Operation Cast Lead.

    Then there is the fact that Israeli military has a record of using cluster bombs and white phosphorous bombs, both of which are clealry indiscriminate weapons.

    Here are some more links to reports about the Israeli military deliberately targeting civilians.

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/05/20/i...order-protests

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/04/12/i...vilians-attack

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/04/05/g...els-war-record

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israe...ors-2012-11-19

    http://www.cpj.org/2012/11/in-gaza-n...ts-injured.php

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ma...y-1305571.html

    They are really not hard to find.

    Regarding your argument about recognising Israel's right to exist:

    - Israel has never defined its borders.

    - Israel has never recognised Palestine's right to exist.

    - Fatah recognises Israel's right to exist but Israel continues to occupy the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

    - I do not believe Israel should be a nation for Jews. Instead, I believe Israel should be a nation for Israelis.
    Thanks for at least providing some links. My thoughts are as follows:

    The boy playing soccer was shot. Why would the Israelis target a boy? What motivation would they have for such an act?
    It seems that no-one knows who shot the boy. Shot in the head by a helicopter? Shot in the side by vehicles? The Israeli investigation showed that they were not connected. I know who I believe.

    In regard to the school. This quote jumps out at me:
    Explaining its attack on al-Fahora school, the Israeli military claimed that a mortar was fired from the playground, and it responded with a single shell which killed known Hamas fighters; the resulting explosion was compounded because Hamas "booby-trapped the school". Two Hamas militants were among the dead, both part of a rocket-launching cell.
    I would suggest that Hamas should not be launching rockets whilst surrounded by innocent civilians.

    Next link. One would be wise not to throw stones at troops with guns. I'm sorry, but I can not feel too much sympathy for these people. They can protest all they want. But when you start trying to hurt people by throwing rocks at them, you can only blame yourself if they retaliate. I have seen plenty of videos of this rock throwing activity. The Israeli troops are generally very well controlled. There must come a point though where the use of force is required in self defence.

    Next.
    Hamas's armed wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, claimed responsibility for an attack on an Israeli school bus on April 7 that wounded two people, while various Palestinian armed groups fired mortars and rockets deliberately or indiscriminately at Israeli population centers.
    A school bus!
    In a statement on its website, the al-Qassam Brigades claimed it had fired "mortars" and "targeted the bus" in reprisal for an Israeli attack that killed three Hamas fighters on April 5.
    Some of their soldiers are killed, so they target a school bus. Disgusting.
    Palestinian armed groups had fired more than 45 rockets and 100 mortar rounds at Israel so far in 2011, before April 7; since then, armed groups have fired around 120 rockets and mortar rounds, including more than a dozen Soviet-designed "Grad" rockets, according to Israeli and other sources. Indiscriminate or deliberate attacks on civilians are serious violations of the laws of war, Human Rights Watch said.
    They are quite a number of indiscriminate attacks.
    The article then lists a handful of Israeli 'attacks'. Most of which do not sound like they were targets - but were innocent people at the wrong place at the wrong time. It is actions like this that cause such deaths.
    The Palestinian fighters who fired mortar shells from a cemetery in the midst of a crowded residential neighborhood placed civilians at unnecessary risk from counter-strikes.
    I'm sure the rest are quite similar in content.

    What do you mean Israel has never defined its borders? Does this mean that you can fire rockets into a civilian area because you don't know where the border is? What are you getting at?

    Yes Israel has recognised Palestine. They withdrew from Gaza in 2005. How is this not recognition?

    Fatah is not in power. And depending on who you talk to - they also don't think Israel has the right to exist.
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...3#.ULG504Yuh8E

    I do not believe Israel should be a nation for Jews. Instead, I believe Israel should be a nation for Israelis.
    What are you talking about? 20% of the Israeli population are Arabs. 16% are muslims. They are a democracy. One who treats all people equally. Women, gays, Jews, and Muslims. The same cannot be said about the Palestinians. So I still cannot understand why the Greens have the stance that they do. They are supporting the group who will kill you if you are homosexual.

    Can anyone (especially those who vote Greens) explain why the Greens support a group who is so anti women and anti gay?
    Last edited by Father; 25-11-2012 at 19:23.

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nasalhaironfire View Post
    Here are examples of recent advice from particular Israeli officials on how the Israeli military should treat Palestinian civilians.

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...c-figures-urge

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...gaza-slaughter

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...c-figures-urge
    Officials??? Who? The uni students?

    Would you like me to get some some quotes from anti-Israeli protests too? I'm sure you won't hear a bad word at one of those!
    Apparently you can't even run a chocolate shop in Australia without anti-Israel protestors attempting to destroy your business.

    Comments from protestors are not official Israel policy.

  10. #19
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    *sigh*

    Okay here I go.

    The boy playing soccer was shot. Why would the Israelis target a boy? What motivation would they have for such an act?
    It seems that no-one knows who shot the boy. Shot in the head by a helicopter? Shot in the side by vehicles? The Israeli investigation showed that they were not connected. I know who I believe.
    So obviously you simply trust the Israeli military on what the Israeli military's human rights record is. Here is a quote from the third link in my list:

    Israeli investigations into alleged serious wrongdoing by its armed forces have a poor record for accountability
    You write,

    I would suggest that Hamas should not be launching rockets whilst surrounded by innocent civilians.
    Still, you simply trust the Israeli military as to what the Israeli military's conduct is. Also, that article says that two schools were bombed.

    You write,

    One would be wise not to throw stones at troops with guns. I'm sorry, but I can not feel too much sympathy for these people. They can protest all they want. But when you start trying to hurt people by throwing rocks at them, you can only blame yourself if they retaliate. I have seen plenty of videos of this rock throwing activity. The Israeli troops are generally very well controlled. There must come a point though where the use of force is required in self defence
    Here are quotes from that very report:

    Witness statements and Human Rights Watch's observations while monitoring the demonstrations in Lebanon indicate that although demonstrators did throw stones, the risk to Israeli soldiers was limited because the demonstrators did not breach the multi-layered, electrified border fence that separated them from the soldiers. A row of trees on the Israeli side of the fence provided additional cover to the soldiers. The circumstances indicate that the soldiers could have avoided risks of injury by stones and prevented a border breach without resorting to lethal force.
    In Gaza, no soldiers were on the ground or in range of stones thrown but Israeli forces shot dozens of protesters with live fire. In the West Bank, many protesters threw stones but peaceful demonstrators said they were also targeted with rubber bullets and gun-launched teargas canisters.
    You then go on to cite the links' reporting of Hamas targeting civilians, and then go on to dismiss the links' reporting of the Israeli military's targeting of civilians as "people being in the wrong place at the wrong time".

    Here is a quote from one of the links:

    Human Rights Watch also investigated some of the cases in which Israeli troops fired at and killed Palestinian civilians. In seven cases, for example, Israeli troops killed a total of 11 Palestinian civilians who had been waving white flags to signal their civilian status. In six other cases, Israeli drone operators fired on and killed a total of 29 Palestinian civilians, including five children, even though drone technology offers the capacity and time to determine whether the targets were combatants.
    Read the Amnesty International report, the Committee to Protect Journalists report and The Independent's report about Israel's bombing of Qana.

    You write,
    What are you talking about? 20% of the Israeli population are Arabs. 16% are muslims. They are a democracy. One who treats all people equally. Women, gays, Jews, and Muslims
    .

    Here are some links that explain why I believe Israel should be nation for Israelis, not Jews. Contrary to what you write, Jews and Gentiles are not treated as equals under Israeli law.
    http://www.arabhra.org/HRA/Secondary...ryArticle=1499

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/08/0...in-homes-negev

    http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/03/30/map-0

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/03/3...gainst-bedouin

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2004/08/1...-arab-citizens

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2004/08/1...-arab-citizens

    http://www.adalah.org/eng/backgroundhistory.php

    http://www.assoc40.org/en/

    http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/c...n-conflict-101

    http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Hurid...E/G0411812.pdf

    http://www.nif.org/issue-areas/israeli-arabs/

    http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt...nea/154463.htm

    http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/

    There is also the fact that Israel refuses to allow Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland, while at the same time, under Israeli law, every Jew in the world is instantly a citizen of Israel and is encouraged to migrate there.


    You write,

    What do you mean Israel has never defined its borders? Does this mean that you can fire rockets into a civilian area because you don't know where the border is? What are you getting at?

    Yes Israel has recognised Palestine. They withdrew from Gaza in 2005. How is this not recognition?

    Fatah is not in power. And depending on who you talk to - they also don't think Israel has the right to exist.
    My point about Israel having never defined its borders is this: what is the Israel that one is expected to recognise?

    Israel has not recognised Palestine. The withdrawal of the Israeli settlements from Gaza does not equal Israeli recognition of the state of Palestine. Also, according to Noam Chomsky's and Ilan Pappe's book Gaza In Crisis, Israel only withdrew the settlements from Gaza because it was seen as not worth the money and effort to sustain them. Then Israel subjected Gaza to a crippling blockade, and expanded settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

    Fatah is in power in the West Bank.

    That link you provided has the quoted person saying that Fatah does not recognise Israel's right to exist, but does recognise Israel's existence. A similar situation to this would be Mexicans and Native Americans not recognising the United States of America's right to exist, but recognising its existence. Another situation would be Indigenous Australians not recognising Australia's right to exist, but recognising its existence.

    At the Oslo Accords, the PLO recognised Israeli sovereignty over all the land within the 1967 Green Line.

    You write,

    Officials??? Who? The uni students?
    The links I provided cite the following Israeli officials as calling for the mass murder of Israeli civilians:

    Gilan Sharon, who is Ariel Sharon's son
    Michael Ben-Ari from the Knesset's National Union Party
    Rabbi Yaakov Yosef
    Knesset member Arye Eldad
    Israeli settler activist Baruch Marzel
    Last edited by nasalhaironfire; 29-11-2012 at 15:22.

  11. #20
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