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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
    On routine circumcision, 'procedures for purposes other than remedying health state' is correct; that is, the logical opposite of therapeutic. Glad we agree.
    Do you have an actual definition of 'routine' other than the deduction method used above? The dictionary does. Is the medical definition different? If it is, do you have a reference?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witwicky View Post
    Obviously I was referring to the previous quote

    The point is that you are ignoring the medical recommendations by RACP, despite this being the driving force behind your reasoning.
    I am not ignoring it at all. They list what the benefits are. They list the risks. I have made my own judgement based on what I have read (just as the RACP says I should).
    My judgement also seems to line up nicely with the AAP's - who state that the benefits DO outweigh the risks. You seem again to be ignoring that the RACP states that parents are in the best position to determine the benefits. Here is the quote again.... in its entirety.

    After reviewing the currently available evidence, the RACP believes that the frequency of diseases modifiable by circumcision, the level of protection offered by circumcision and the complication rates of circumcision do not warrant routine infant circumcision in Australia and New Zealand. However it is reasonable for parents to weigh the benefits and risks of circumcision and to make the decision whether or not to circumcise their sons.

  3. #73
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    Witwicky is offline A closed mouth gathers no foot.
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    I have just stated the purpose of the final sentence. Are you being deliberately vague?

    But yes, continue referring to the AAP
    Last edited by Witwicky; 02-10-2012 at 15:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witwicky View Post
    I have just stated the purpose of the final sentence. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

    But yes, continue referring to the AAP
    What are you talking about?

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    This definition of routine is not only "logical", but any other reading would render illogical a large body of medical literature, including the very first recommendation by the Australian Paediatric Association.

    But, anyway, I'm more interested in the ethical issue, which strikes me as central to the entire debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
    But, anyway, I'm more interested in the ethical issue, which strikes me as central to the entire debate.
    The debate will just continue to go around in circles John. I don't know why you bother. I don't consider it an ethical issue as it is a carried out in the best interest of the child and there is medical benefits to be had from it. For this reason, there is no point in me debating it on ethical grounds as I don't consider it an ethical problem.

    If you want to debate it on medical grounds, you know where to find me. Enjoy your narrowed down debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    For this reason, there is no point in me debating it on ethical grounds as I don't consider it an ethical problem.

    If you want to debate it on medical grounds, you know where to find me. Enjoy your narrowed down debate.
    On the first point, you and the AAP are of one mind, since they also give little/no weight to autonomy in their calculus of benefits/harms.

    This is not a narrowing but a broadening of the debate.

    As for the potential medical benefits, clearly the RACP does not agree, at least as far as the Australian context is concerned, even though they considered the same evidence base. Presumably, that's what Australian parents should take into account, rather than the HIV risk for African Americans attending a Baltimore STI clinic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Well said Mrs P. You can tell me too John!
    I have come across a few that have had issues with not having it done. Have not met a 'real' person that has said a bad word about it. Maybe they're all just hanging out on Bubhub??? Even then, I don't think I've seen anyone on here either?

    Not that it matters anyway. Anecdotes do not change the facts that in my opinion (and the American Academy of Pediatrics's), the benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks. I have great confidence that my two boys will understand why I made this decision on their behalf when they were infants.

    A parent HAS the right to make any decision for their child..if we say they doint where do we stop? how the child is birthed? how its fed?
    I have not come across very many uncirc'd men in my experiences, and nor do i know of any who sit around and complain of the fact they were done :s

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
    I said "some parents", whether that includes you is not for me to say.

    Meanwhile, you've neither replied to the ethical issue I've raised about a child's right to bodily integrity, nor corrected your earlier imputation about a lack of negative effect on many, many men. Did you even read the short piece in the link I provided?
    I don't feel the need to explain and defend myself to some random bloke on some forum on the Internet. With anything there will always be happy and unhappy people. In my experience im yet to come across a negative experience and 90% of the males in my life were circumcised. I have eyes, ears and personal experience with the matter I can make my own judgement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mumma Katt View Post
    A parent HAS the right to make any
    decision for their child..if we say they doint where do we stop? how the child is birthed? how its fed?
    I have not come across very many uncirc'd men in my experiences, and nor do i know of any who sit around and complain of the fact they were done :s
    Both birth and feeding are "necesary". The baby has to come out, the baby has to be fed. Both are medically necessary.
    RIC isnt a medical necessity.
    Im sure if i came on here stating im going to get my sons perfectly fine tonsils, appendix removed just because as a parent i have that right there would be an uproar.
    Whats the difference?

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to diesal444 For This Useful Post:

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