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  1. #71
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    Default Private hospital births: 'horror' figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Leens View Post
    GRRRRRR THIS STUDY IS ANNOYING ME.

    It's completely flawed and I'm miffed it's getting any kind of air time at all because the bit they forgot to include makes the numbers entirely irrelevant.

    The women surveyed were not asked whether their interventions were requested or not.

    Yet these figures are being tossed around as though they speak for unwanted intervention. They DO NOT. Whether the women planned elective c-sections or not is not taken into account, whether a woman was exhausted and asked for ventouse assistance is not taken into account. We all know women that request epidurals, they're rarely "forced" onto people. It doesn't take this into account at all, only that interventions happened.

    Well interventions aren't always inflicted upon women who don't want them. This study is making noise like they are.

    It's COMPLETELY irrelevant as any kind of statement without this information. Interventions don't happen in a vacuum. There are plenty of times interventions are requested, and for them to not take this into account is ridiculous.

    If they asked whether the interventions were wanted or not, THEN they might have some interesting stats with which to start a conversation -- but they don't want to start a conversation, they just want to make private hospitals look like they're salivating while waiting to gut us all like fish. They just want to say "Intervention baaaaad, natural, gooooood!" like it was that simple.

    Absolute rubbish and shouldn't be getting the kind of traction it is.
    Hallelujah!!

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    I know it's pedantic, but I would also dispute the use of the word 'horror' in the title.

    I had a CS which was classed as an elective, and there was nothing horrific about it. I have many friends who have requested inductions, c-sections, etc. and I don't know any that have described their experience as being anything but a good one.

    I've said this before in this type of thread, but when I asked my OB about the high rates of CS in his hospital, he said that he found it very frustrating that people look at the percentages, but not any of the reasons for it.

    He was very pro-natural birth where possible, but he said that because he is a FS, he sees a lot of women who have complicated pregnancies and deliveries. His patient demographic is that of the older mother, and he said that his patients also tend toward being overweight/ obese (which again can cause complications). Further to that, he said they get a lot of requests for c-sections from the mothers.

    My MIL is a midwife at a different private hospital, and she said that they very commonly get social inductions/ elective c-sections from their patients.

    A statistic is meaningless without a decent study to back it up.

    I agree that it is a bad situation if women are being bullied into unnecessary intervention. However, at this point I don't think any studies have conclusively shown that to be true or, if so, to what extent. Anecdotal evidence is one thing, but a proper study is needed before we can leap to conclusions. And, as a PP said, that may be hard for ethical reasons!

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  5. #73
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    Did anyone see this article in response to this one?

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/lette...910-25nes.html

    The Case for Private Births

    Letter of the morning: September 10
    Given that the “horrifying” obstetric intervention rates of Australia's private obstetricians have been extensively reported over recent years (Private doctors criticised on births, September 10), we are left with an obvious question: Why do women who are intelligent and capable of making high-quality decisions regarding their health and that of their families continue to choose private obstetricians in – if anything – greater numbers than in the past?
    (It is worth remembering that because of Medicare and the comparative affordability of both health insurance and private obstetric care more Australian women are able to choose private obstetric care than women in, for instance, Britain).
    One possible answer lies in the renowned "Three Cs" of maternity care – choice, control and continuity. We may need to accept the possibility in that in Australia women perceive private obstetric care to be superior to the public system in these three important areas and that when women are truly provided with choice and control they may opt for at least a low threshold for obstetric intervention.
    It is also possible that when compared with the public system women perceive the private system to be safer for themselves and their babies – a view that can be supported by the scientific literature. My own figures for my seven years of private practice reveal a “horrifying” rate of intervention yet no babies (without major genetic abnormalities) dying or being born in poor condition, despite an ageing and medically complex obstetric population.
    Advertisement
    And like many private obstetricians I see a small but steady ****** of women coming through my door who gave birth to their first babies in the public system. Most were physically and/or psychologically traumatised by their “normal” births and a small number lost their babies.
    Dr Rob Buist, Randwick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl X View Post
    I agree that it is a bad situation if women are being bullied into unnecessary intervention. However, at this point I don't think any studies have conclusively shown that to be true or, if so, to what extent. Anecdotal evidence is one thing, but a proper study is needed before we can leap to conclusions. And, as a PP said, that may be hard for ethical reasons!
    Oh my goodness. You would require a study done to show that women are bullied into interventions. Even in this short thread alone, women have clearly stated that they HAVE been bulled into interventions. But that anecdotal evidence is not enough to prove to you that it happens at all? No wonder women suffer PTSD, post partum depression. If they even get the courage to discuss mistreatment during birth, some people don't even believe it...

  7. #75
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    headoverfeet is offline The truth will set you free, but first it will **** you off. -Gloria Steinem
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    My own figures for my seven years of private practice reveal a “horrifying” rate of intervention yet no babies (without major genetic abnormalities) dying or being born in poor condition, despite an ageing and medically complex obstetric population


    This bit nearly made me vomit. I wonder what his PTSD and PND rates are like?

    healthy-baby-apple.jpg



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    What a load of crap that Ob is spouting. Babies don't die in private hospitals - only public. Women only have traumatic births in the public system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToBe View Post
    Oh my goodness. You would require a study done to show that women are bullied into interventions. Even in this short thread alone, women have clearly stated that they HAVE been bulled into interventions. But that anecdotal evidence is not enough to prove to you that it happens at all? No wonder women suffer PTSD, post partum depression. If they even get the courage to discuss mistreatment during birth, some people don't even believe it...
    You misunderstand me. Perhaps I didn't explain it clearly enough, so I'll give it another go.

    I believe that women are sometimes bullied into interventions, and I believe that this is wrong.

    However, I do not know the extent to which this happens, and - I would suggest - none of us do.

    What I'm objecting to is not that it happens at all, but the extrapolation of 'facts' that comes from a statistic that has no context or study to explain it.

    If the patient demographic is different between the private and public systems (as it is) then immediately a study that does not account for that is skewed.

    I'm not saying no woman is bullied. I'm saying that we can't assume from that statistic that all women/ most women/ any quantifiable number are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl X View Post
    I've said this before in this type of thread, but when I asked my OB about the high rates of CS in his hospital, he said that he found it very frustrating that people look at the percentages, but not any of the reasons for it.

    He was very pro-natural birth where possible, but he said that because he is a FS, he sees a lot of women who have complicated pregnancies and deliveries. His patient demographic is that of the older mother, and he said that his patients also tend toward being overweight/ obese (which again can cause complications). Further to that, he said they get a lot of requests for c-sections from the mothers.

    My MIL is a midwife at a different private hospital, and she said that they very commonly get social inductions/ elective c-sections from their patients.

    A statistic is meaningless without a decent study to back it up.
    !
    I agree whole-heartedly (and so my more eloquently than I could put it).

    In reference to the fertility specialists/IVF treatment, if one can not fall pregnant naturally (assuming its female infertility not male infertility) that how can we expect that ones body will be able to produce the hormones/function right to go into labour naturally and then give birth naturally without any intervention.

    I remember a breastfeeding lecture at uni where a good point was made regarding breastfeeding help with IVF mums. Whilst we shouldn't expect that IVF mothers will have issues breastfeeding, its something to consider as a cause if there is problems.

    I also noticed that the study was from 2000-2008.... How many women could have an emergency c/s in 2000 and then went on to have another 2 or 3 kids via elective c/s in the next 8 years?

    I've just finished my midwife degree and also disagree with the use of horror in the title of the article. Midwives have enough trouble getting a reputation this country as university-educated health professionals, we don't need newspaper articles making us sound like we can't do research properly and will come out with all sorts of outlandish statements against the medical system.
    Last edited by wannawannabe; 11-09-2012 at 12:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl X View Post
    You misunderstand me. Perhaps I didn't explain it clearly enough, so I'll give it another go.

    I believe that women are sometimes bullied into interventions, and I believe that this is wrong.

    However, I do not know the extent to which this happens, and - I would suggest - none of us do.

    What I'm objecting to is not that it happens at all, but the extrapolation of 'facts' that comes from a statistic that has no context or study to explain it.

    If the patient demographic is different between the private and public systems (as it is) then immediately a study that does not account for that is skewed.

    I'm not saying no woman is bullied. I'm saying that we can't assume from that statistic that all women/ most women/ any quantifiable number are.
    Ok, fair enough. Your wording with "shown that to be true" was the part that was misleading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToBe View Post
    Ok, fair enough. Your wording with "shown that to be true" was the part that was misleading.
    I can understand that. I'd hoped that it made sense within the context of my post, but obviously it wasn't clear enough. I also understand that this may be a sensitive topic for some.


 

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