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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    My bold. That is your opinion. You are entitled to have it.
    In my opinion, the benefits OUTWEIGH the risks. Whilst the procedure can be labelled as 'unnecessary', it doesn't change a risk/benefit analysis.

    I'm sorry that you feel I am condescending. It is sometimes challenges to be answering the same questions from 3 or more people at the same time. Constantly repeating the same thing is a little annoying.

    The parents right to decide doesn't 'trump' the child's. The child is incapable of making a decision when they are 2 weeks old. It just so happens that the best benefit to risk ratio occurs whilst they are a newborn. As they get older, the risks increase, and the benefits decrease. A parent sometimes has to make some tough decisions on behalf of their child. I am confident with my decision and will live with the consequences.

    Unlike you, I do see similarities with a vaccine. Vaccinations are not necessary either. They carry benefits and risks.

    I've said before, I don't need you to agree with me. I just don't like other people trying to make decisions for my children.
    In relation to your last point, I think this is one of the things that I can't agree with. Other people can and do make decisions for our children. They require us to keep kids 7 and under in special car seats. Other decisions are made which indirectly effect our children, such as speed limits in school zones, seat belts in cars generally, speed limits, stopping at red lights. The list goes on.

    We don't own our children. I agree wholeheartedly that as parents it is our job to make the best decisions for our children with the facts we have on a daily basis. But that does not extend to (IMO) removing parts of their body because of our religious beliefs or because of the fear of a medical condition developing which might never happen and which could be avoided. Should I have my children's appendixes removed because one day they might rupture? No doctor would allow it because it's ridiculous.

    I put circumcision in that same category.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    I assume you are only considering STIs here? Phimosis, UTIs, balanitis, penile cancer, etc. You have to weigh up ALL the benefits. This is what the AAP has done in their risk/benefit analysis. It is not just STIs.
    I've read the AAP material you linked (the parts I could access). I can only see the referral to health benefits (such as Atropos refers). When you say ALL the benefits, what are the others? I can't access other news releases on the site so I may be missing something but I can only see the health benefits in the material on the AAP website.

    Thanks.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    Should I have my children's appendixes removed because one day they might rupture? No doctor would allow it because it's ridiculous.

    I put circumcision in that same category.
    You summed up why it shouldn't be in the same category. Because no doctor would allow it. Circumcision is different. There is medical evidence of the benefits outweighing the risks. And doctors are quite happy to do the procedure as they are aware of the benefits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    It might not cut it in your eyes, but it doesn't have to. We are all different and will view things differently.
    If you are seriously interested, I have explained my reasons many times in this forum, including evidence. Feel free to read through my older posts.
    Or, if you would rather go direct to the source about this evidence, this website is very well referenced.
    http://www.circinfo.net/

    You may not be a fan of the author of the website, but the evidence is all there. If you are unhappy with one of his comments, just look at the source behind it and read the evidence for yourself. If you are serious in your interest for the evidence, you will look at that website. If your response is limited to, "ha, I wouldn't read anything that horrible man writes", then I would not regard you as serious in your pursuit of evidence.

    Sorry if it sounds like I am not answering your question, but I have done the whole 'explain yourself' so many times before, that I really cannot be bothered going through it all again.

    If you have a more specific question, I am more than happy to answer.

    ETA: You have not answered my question as to which fact(s) I have ignored. I would appreciate that you retract your comment or provide me with an example.
    I can't believe you reference that site! Seriously? You pull apart and mock it's counterpart and you expect parents to take this as fact? And yes I have read it all, spoken to paeds, GP's etc....regarding it's content.

    The fact that a horrible man wrote it means squat, it's the fact that it's not factual that matters.

    ETA For those playing at home the counterpart and JUST as biased site against RIC is circinfo.org. I won't link directly.
    Last edited by misskittyfantastico; 29-08-2012 at 23:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    I've read the AAP material you linked (the parts I could access). I can only see the referral to health benefits (such as Atropos refers). When you say ALL the benefits, what are the others?

    Thanks.
    They are all discussed in the AAP Technical Report. I have only ever been talking about the health benefits.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskittyfantastico View Post
    The fact that a horrible man wrote it means squat, it's the fact that it's not factual that matters.
    Not factual? Every fact is very well referenced. Can you please provide an example of something that is not factual in regard to the benefits or the risks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Not factual? Every fact is very well referenced. Can you please provide an example of something that is not factual in regard to the benefits or the risks?
    Do you concede it's a site that is heavily biased towards RIC?

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    The supposed health benefits (they say) include PREVENTION of HIV. How can circ possibly prevent this unless it prevents men from actually ejaculating?!

    And I expect it could prevent penile cancer in the tip of the foreskin because it's no longer attached to the penis. But if one has any knowlege of the pathology of cancer, you cannot possibly believe that it can prevent penile cancer not associated with the tip of the foreskin...can you?

    I am not trying to be inflammatory in any sense, and I believe if a man/boy has real, anatomical problems in this dept, he has every right to choose circ. But that it can prevent these 2 problems just does not make scientific/medical sense to me. And I have a pretty scientific mind and extensive layman's medical training!

    If anyone can enlighten me, I'd appreciate it! Cheers.
    Last edited by BaronessM; 29-08-2012 at 23:30. Reason: my dodgy spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskittyfantastico View Post
    Do you concede it's a site that is heavily biased towards RIC?
    Yes it biased. I have no problem conceding that. But that does not mean that it is 'not factual'. All his facts are supported by scientific research. Facts are facts. It just so happens that there are a substantial amount of facts that supports his position.

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    I have been reading along and I am genuinely curious, if there is so much medical evidence in support of it, why does the health system in this country not support and even the AAP stop slightly short of recommending it?

    I have a real problem with the *reduced risk of STI* part of the argument. It worries me that people are told it is less of a risk so people may engage in more risky sexual activities. Also along these lines, there is some discussion that there is greater friction created in intercourse with a circ'd penis which can abrade the walls of the vagina opening the woman up to increased risk of STI, not to mention considerable discomfort.


 

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