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  1. #51
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    Default American Academy of Paediatrics backs circumcision

    To make that decision****
    Obviously I make decisions for them all the time haha
    But changing their body permanently I wouldn't do unless needed.

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    Default American Academy of Paediatrics backs circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    I have explained my 'objectives' above. Does that not answer your agenda question?
    I have never said that circumcision is a necessity. So I do not know what you are referring to with 'benefits vs necessity'. One would normally access a benefit against a risk or a cost.
    Yes I want to protect a parent's right to decide. I am not being condescending to those who choose not to do it. It is the parents right to choose not to, and I have absolutely no problems with that. My argument lies with those who are trying to remove the ability for parents to make any decision.
    So, no. I do not see I 'come across', nor am I concerned as to how I 'come across'. I'm am not trying to recruit a team of activists.
    Clearly it didn't answer my question or I would have asked it.

    What I am referring to I already posted but to reiterate-you are advocating a procedure that is completely unnecessary for the *vast* majority of males. Even the benefits of said procedure can be obtained through other means. Which makes the risk more unacceptable IMO.

    I have read many of your posts on this topic and you always come off as condescending to those who disagree with you or challenge your views.

    A parents right to decide is one thing, but you've yet to clarify why this right trumps that of the child that owns the body. This is not like giving a vaccine to prevent life threatening illness or consenting to a necessary procedure, this is the surgical removal of a body part when scientific research (such as you yourself have posted) has shown that it is not needful.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Even the benefits of said procedure can be obtained through other means. Which makes the risk more unacceptable IMO.
    My bold. That is your opinion. You are entitled to have it.
    In my opinion, the benefits OUTWEIGH the risks. Whilst the procedure can be labelled as 'unnecessary', it doesn't change a risk/benefit analysis.

    I'm sorry that you feel I am condescending. It is sometimes challenges to be answering the same questions from 3 or more people at the same time. Constantly repeating the same thing is a little annoying.

    The parents right to decide doesn't 'trump' the child's. The child is incapable of making a decision when they are 2 weeks old. It just so happens that the best benefit to risk ratio occurs whilst they are a newborn. As they get older, the risks increase, and the benefits decrease. A parent sometimes has to make some tough decisions on behalf of their child. I am confident with my decision and will live with the consequences.

    Unlike you, I do see similarities with a vaccine. Vaccinations are not necessary either. They carry benefits and risks.

    I've said before, I don't need you to agree with me. I just don't like other people trying to make decisions for my children.

  4. #54
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    Default American Academy of Paediatrics backs circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    It might not cut it in your eyes, but it doesn't have to. We are all different and will view things differently.
    If you are seriously interested, I have explained my reasons many times in this forum, including evidence. Feel free to read through my older posts.
    Or, if you would rather go direct to the source about this evidence, this website is very well referenced.
    http://www.circinfo.net/

    You may not be a fan of the author of the website, but the evidence is all there. If you are unhappy with one of his comments, just look at the source behind it and read the evidence for yourself. If you are serious in your interest for the evidence, you will look at that website. If your response is limited to, "ha, I wouldn't read anything that horrible man writes", then I would not regard you as serious in your pursuit of evidence.

    Sorry if it sounds like I am not answering your question, but I have done the whole 'explain yourself' so many times before, that I really cannot be bothered going through it all again.

    If you have a more specific question, I am more than happy to answer.

    ETA: You have not answered my question as to which fact(s) I have ignored. I would appreciate that you retract your comment or provide me with an example.
    Thanks but I can't be bothered reading through 50,000 pages and posts. Surely in as much time it took you to type out the above you could have written a couple of bullet points such as:
    - risk of penile cancer not circ'ing is unacceptably high to me (70%)
    (I just made that up).

    This is the internet and we're all anonymous strangers...you're seriously asking for a retraction?
    - I can't be bothered reading through this whole thread to see what I said, so I'm going to have a guess. I was probably referring to the fact that you take bits and pieces of AAP's information to suit yourself and conveniently gloss over things that don't suit your agenda. For example you totally underplay the fact that AAP is not actually recommending widespread circumcision. And ignore the implication that this is because the benefits are so tiny. Instead you play up the fact that the teeny tiny benefits outweigh the teeny tiny risks by a teeny tiny amount.

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    Witwicky is offline A closed mouth gathers no foot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Father, you yourself own that around 7% of men will have a medical issue and need a Circumcision, leaving 93% that will not.
    So you advocate a surgical procedure whereby a functional body part is surgically removed from a baby, without his consent and without medical need, that carries risks of its own. This is done on the off chance that he will be part of the minority 7% and to provide him benefits that could be obtained by being taught to be clean and safe sexually. It makes no sense to me. And frankly, the way you talk down to people who disagree with you and twist words to suit your agenda probably won't win you any converts either.
    People can sprout their "medical reasons", but I don't buy it. You wouldn't remove other parts of the body based on pathetic stats like that. It is my belief that these babies get circumcised solely because the father is circumcised.
    Last edited by DQ; 29-08-2012 at 22:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    For example you totally underplay the fact that AAP is not actually recommending widespread circumcision. And ignore the implication that this is because the benefits are so tiny. Instead you play up the fact that the teeny tiny benefits outweigh the teeny tiny risks by a teeny tiny amount.
    I did not ignore that fact. Of course they aren't going to mandate circumcision for all.

    If I provided the bullet points, you and several others, will then question and argue each individual point. It has all been covered before. It is not the purpose of this thread.

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    Default American Academy of Paediatrics backs circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    I did not ignore that fact. Of course they aren't going to mandate circumcision for all.

    If I provided the bullet points, you and several others, will then question and argue each individual point. It has all been covered before. It is not the purpose of this thread.
    1.They are not simply 'not mandating it'. They are not recommending it. They are sitting on the fence which they wouldn't be doing if it was just a great and useful procedure.
    2. Fair enough but don't complain that people don't understand or are judging circ'ers unfairly.

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    Default American Academy of Paediatrics backs circumcision

    Please keep the personal insults out of this thread. If you cannot debate this topic without resorting to personal attacks, then please reconsider posting on this topic.

    Personal attacks will result in infractions and the thread will be closed.

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    Laydeebugxxx  (29-08-2012)

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    Default American Academy of Paediatrics backs circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    My bold. That is your opinion. You are entitled to have it.
    In my opinion, the benefits OUTWEIGH the risks. Whilst the procedure can be labelled as 'unnecessary', it doesn't change a risk/benefit analysis.

    I'm sorry that you feel I am condescending. It is sometimes challenges to be answering the same questions from 3 or more people at the same time. Constantly repeating the same thing is a little annoying.

    The parents right to decide doesn't 'trump' the child's. The child is incapable of making a decision when they are 2 weeks old. It just so happens that the best benefit to risk ratio occurs whilst they are a newborn. As they get older, the risks increase, and the benefits decrease. A parent sometimes has to make some tough decisions on behalf of their child. I am confident with my decision and will live with the consequences.

    Unlike you, I do see similarities with a vaccine. Vaccinations are not necessary either. They carry benefits and risks.

    I've said before, I don't need you to agree with me. I just don't like other people trying to make decisions for my children.
    The benefits outweigh the risks, yes, but the benefits can be obtained through other means. This fact demonstrates that it is unnecessary so it does change the risk/benefit analysis- you are taking a risk to gain benefits that can be gained through other means IYKWIM.

    Vaccines have a far greater list of benefits and the risk is tiny. Also the benefits cannot safely be obtained through any other means so the two don't really compare well.

    When it comes to a procedure you concede can be labelled unnecessary, I just don't think ANY person has the right to decide that for another. Not their parent or anyone else. It is their body, their choice.
    Last edited by Atropos; 29-08-2012 at 22:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    The benefits outweigh the risks, yes, but the benefits can be obtained through other means. This fact demonstrates that it is unnecessary so it does change the risk/benefit analysis- you are taking a risk to gain benefits that can be gained through other means IYKWIM.
    I assume you are only considering STIs here? Phimosis, UTIs, balanitis, penile cancer, etc. You have to weigh up ALL the benefits. This is what the AAP has done in their risk/benefit analysis. It is not just STIs.


 

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