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  1. #51
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    Default Re: Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    Bec, i dont think its blackmailing but a true reflection of what they will do if it becomes illegal.

    I do really understand where both sides come from, being married to a Jewish man. For my in law family, they were more concerned about hygiene then religious reason.

    Although the concern about human right, body choice is very valid, going straight to bash religion/culture beliefs and calling these parents child abusers will not help any baby, it more just shows disrespect, ignorance, arrogance and insentivity. Religion/culture beliefs last for centuries, to change them you need a proper and respectful approach and education over a long period of time.

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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    Quote Originally Posted by ToughLove View Post
    We'll be circumcising all of our sons.

    DH has a genetic condition that still doesn't come under the "medically necessary" umbrella. We were told {when we didn't know what gender DD was} that the child has to have the issue at the time or it's not medically necessary.

    DH's grandfather, both brothers, father and himself have suffered from this embarassing issue, which develops after puberty.
    In DH's case, his mum went for the "he can make his own decision" road, leading to multiple infections as a child, and finally, a circumcision as a teenager that was so painful and long to heal that he had to be sedated to urinate.
    His Dad also had a late, long healing and extremely painful circumcision thanks to his mother making that same "he can choose" decision.

    As long as we have the option, ALL of our boys will be cut, very shortly after birth, if not at birth.
    I don't care what private costs we have to pay.

    I assume everyone here is also strictly against ear piercing for young girls? Because after all, it's an elective surgery that has no purpose, causes pain and bodily trauma, and can come with a whole host of severe health issues.
    I don't think anyone is talking about banning circumcision in medically necessary situations, as yours definitely sounds to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Yes it is 'my call'. Well, to be more accurate, 'our call'. I include my wife in decision making.
    And I guess our view on raising children is a little different to yours. We don't allow our young children to make their 'own, informed decisions'. We can't. They do not have the ability when they are young to make decisions. This is where parenting comes into it. You, as a parent, MUST make decisions for your children. We accept responsibility for our children 100%. They are not my flatmates. We make them brush their teeth and go to bed we tell them. We choose what they are eating for dinner (at least most of the time, and we will discipline them when we feel it is appropriate.
    It sounds to me like you are living with a human being that you have no control of. I hope that this is not the case, as their are many parents out there that are allowing their kids to 'run wild'.

    Sorry to go on. I went a little off topic there
    But it is something I feel strongly about. We are parents. We have to make decisions about what we feel is in their best interest. Your decision doesn't have to be the same as mine, but I am confident in the decisions I make for my children. I accept responsibility for those decisions. And I feel that my children will be better for it.
    So until my kids are 18, we will 'own' our kids. They are OUR responsibility.
    Of course you don't expect your children to make informed decisions regarding circumcision - they aren't able to as babies, but that was my point. Let them decide once they're adults. Telling them they need to brush their teeth and when to go to bed are not the same as cutting off part if their body!

    I am also 100% responsible for my child, BUT I don't assume I own him, not in the sence that I have a right to say, cut off the tip of his pinky just because I believe strongly in the practice. The only thing I OWN is the responsibility to nurture, guide, love and protect him as long as I live. But his body is his own, and he was born just perfect - no adjustment needed (IMO).

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    Default Re: Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    I am not jewish, so forgive me if this is wrong. When I studied religion, I found that circumcision was performed in biblical times due to dirty water, sand, dust and inability for hygienic cleaning of the penis.

    It's not really in the torah that to be a jewish man you have to be circumcised.

    In this day and age, those reasonings are null and void.

    As far as I'm concerned, unless you are grown and are having issues with it, it should not be performed. Especially on newborns and for the basis of religion, hygiene or prevention of disease (that one is just ignorant).

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    Quote Originally Posted by lovesushi View Post
    Although the concern about human right, body choice is very valid, going straight to bash religion/culture beliefs and calling these parents child abusers will not help any baby, it more just shows disrespect, ignorance, arrogance and insentivity. Religion/culture beliefs last for centuries, to change them you need a proper and respectful approach and education over a long period of time.
    I need to be clear about this, I am not bashing religion or cultural beliefs. I fully support adults rights to their beliefs with the provisions mentioned in an earlier post. However, that does not mean that we cannot challenge religious practices. I realise this is a very taboo area but there is no valid reason why religious practices and beliefs are to be off limits to any and all criticism or challenge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witwicky View Post
    It's interesting that you say that about 'control', given the history of male circumcision in certain cultures.

    I thought I should mention by the way, that there are Jewish and Muslim men who are not happy that the procedure was performed on them. There is actually an organisation called "Jews against circumcision". Their headline description is - "We are a group of educated and enlightened Jews who realize that the bar baric, primitive, torturous, and mutilating practice of circumcision has no place in modern Judaism".

    There are males and females within these religions and cultures who are fighting for the abolishment of certain practices. We are seeing an increase in individuals who are opposed to it and I believe the larger the numbers opposed, the less it will be performed, as it then gives others the courage to say no. A ripple starts a wave. It's just unfortunate that in many situations, they can only say 'no' for their own sons, but not for themselves.

    Also, I wasn't comparing FGM and male circumcision... I tend to avoid doing that on here these days. I merely mentioned it to point out another religious and cultural practice which is actually illegal in Australia, despite it being performed under the veil of religious practice. I don't actually agree that we have to tread carefully with FGM. It is a disgusting, highly abhorrent practice that has no place in society. The fact that women in these patriarchal societies have been told that it is essential for cleanliness/purity/repression of sexuality and therefore have been essentially conditioned into believing it is 'integral', does not make it any more acceptable. Have you read the book "Desert Flower" by Waris Dirie?
    Absolutely, I'm sure there are Jewish and Muslim men unhappy about being circumcised, and hopefully, through them and the awareness they can create in their communities, the practise will become less common. And yes I agree FGM is awful and have no desire to have it legalized, but I think it would be highly offensive to a woman who has been through it to be told by someone with very little understanding of the deeper issues, that it is mutilation etc.

    I guess I am just saying that although I personally don't agree with these things, I believe it is important to acknowledge that my (our) understanding of the cultural and religious meaning attached to circumcision is very limited, and therefore I'd prefer if those people themselves changed their practice rather than being the stereotypical white/western hero going in and enforcing MY values onto them.

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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    I am Jewish and there is no way in heII I will be circumcising any of my sons. I am sure I will cop a lot of flack from my family but I just do not believe it's my choice to make. If my son decides he wants to join the males in my family and be circumcised when he's old enough to make that decision, I will support him 100% and help him to find someone reputable who will perform the procedure on him.

    Until then, I will not be chopping any of my children's genitals to placate family and their tradition

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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    I just read the article. So horrible. I haven't read any of the othe discussion so not sure where the conversation has progressed to but...

    I have been pro-circ in the past, however since having my daughter my views have changed drastically on a number of fronts. This is the first time I've thought about circumscision on any level for ages, & I have to say, I am now firmly in the anti-circ camp. I can't imagine seeking to have something like that done to my child.

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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    Quote Originally Posted by ToughLove View Post
    We'll be circumcising all of our sons.

    DH has a genetic condition that still doesn't come under the "medically necessary" umbrella. We were told {when we didn't know what gender DD was} that the child has to have the issue at the time or it's not medically necessary.

    DH's grandfather, both brothers, father and himself have suffered from this embarassing issue, which develops after puberty.
    In DH's case, his mum went for the "he can make his own decision" road, leading to multiple infections as a child, and finally, a circumcision as a teenager that was so painful and long to heal that he had to be sedated to urinate.
    His Dad also had a late, long healing and extremely painful circumcision thanks to his mother making that same "he can choose" decision.

    As long as we have the option, ALL of our boys will be cut, very shortly after birth, if not at birth.
    I don't care what private costs we have to pay.

    I assume everyone here is also strictly against ear piercing for young girls? Because after all, it's an elective surgery that has no purpose, causes pain and bodily trauma, and can come with a whole host of severe health issues.
    It sounds to me like your case is medical need even though technically some may say its not. There's a far cry between you wanting to circumcise your sons for a real fear of medical issues and someone circ'ing because it's their culture or religion or for the old 'look like daddy' reason.

    Fortunately your case would be in the minority...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Bec~ View Post
    I need to be clear about this, I am not bashing religion or cultural beliefs. I fully support adults rights to their beliefs with the provisions mentioned in an earlier post. However, that does not mean that we cannot challenge religious practices. I realise this is a very taboo area but there is no valid reason why religious practices and beliefs are to be off limits to any and all criticism or challenge.
    Only the first paragraph was directed to you, not the rest of my post. Sorry for confusing u. I'm actually grateful that you want to understand about how religion belief stands behind the decision to circ and didn't jump straight to say it's bs.

    Again this is not directed at you Bec, just writing down my thought.

    I'm more for cultural belief as I said that my in laws believe it's hygienic to circ, they would live in fear of infection if it's not done. They don't do it for fun, not to torture their babies nor because G-d tells them to do so. That belief ran in generations, supported by health professions in their culture. And I'm disgusted by the German government's ban of the practice, what a insensitive decision to make seeing how many Jews were killed by them. That's not so long ago!

    Now people belong to some certain cultures have the tendency to believe that they're superior. They think Aboriginal people should go to university and live in buildings (maybe they prefer to live in nature and go hunting), they think Muslims and Jews abuse their baby boys by cir, they think Asians abuse their children by smacking etc. The world is not one dimension. Imagine on some other culture forums, people are bashing you (in general) for invading land, your teenagers are disrespectful for lack of discipline and your uncir'd males are unhygienic.

    I do and i really do understand that there are dark areas in religions/cultures where human rights are hurt, where human beings are harmed but i don't believe approaching it with arrogant and ignorant attitude will change anything other than bringing hatred.


 
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