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  1. #41
    Witwicky's Avatar
    Witwicky is offline A closed mouth gathers no foot.
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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Yes it is 'my call'. Well, to be more accurate, 'our call'. I include my wife in decision making.
    And I guess our view on raising children is a little different to yours. We don't allow our young children to make their 'own, informed decisions'. We can't. They do not have the ability when they are young to make decisions. This is where parenting comes into it. You, as a parent, MUST make decisions for your children. We accept responsibility for our children 100%. They are not my flatmates. We make them brush their teeth and go to bed we tell them. We choose what they are eating for dinner (at least most of the time, and we will discipline them when we feel it is appropriate.
    It sounds to me like you are living with a human being that you have no control of. I hope that this is not the case, as their are many parents out there that are allowing their kids to 'run wild'.

    Sorry to go on. I went a little off topic there
    But it is something I feel strongly about. We are parents. We have to make decisions about what we feel is in their best interest. Your decision doesn't have to be the same as mine, but I am confident in the decisions I make for my children. I accept responsibility for those decisions. And I feel that my children will be better for it.
    So until my kids are 18, we will 'own' our kids. They are OUR responsibility.
    There is a difference between OWNING your child like a piece of chattel and raising your child in a respectful manner like a human being with his or her own rights being honoured.
    Last edited by Witwicky; 27-08-2012 at 09:35.

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  3. #42
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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    There's no point legalising the violation of someones rights because you think 'oh at least the violation will be done safely and not in a backyard procedure'

    By that logic we should legalise rape, because then at least it can be monitored and done in hygienic conditions.

    Or let's legalise murder so it can be done without trauma or pain by lethal injection.

    It's ridiculous.

    Our laws exist to maintain an ethical and moral expectation by society ( however improperly enforced).

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  5. #43
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    We'll be circumcising all of our sons.

    DH has a genetic condition that still doesn't come under the "medically necessary" umbrella. We were told {when we didn't know what gender DD was} that the child has to have the issue at the time or it's not medically necessary.

    DH's grandfather, both brothers, father and himself have suffered from this embarassing issue, which develops after puberty.
    In DH's case, his mum went for the "he can make his own decision" road, leading to multiple infections as a child, and finally, a circumcision as a teenager that was so painful and long to heal that he had to be sedated to urinate.
    His Dad also had a late, long healing and extremely painful circumcision thanks to his mother making that same "he can choose" decision.

    As long as we have the option, ALL of our boys will be cut, very shortly after birth, if not at birth.
    I don't care what private costs we have to pay.

    I assume everyone here is also strictly against ear piercing for young girls? Because after all, it's an elective surgery that has no purpose, causes pain and bodily trauma, and can come with a whole host of severe health issues.

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  7. #44
    Witwicky's Avatar
    Witwicky is offline A closed mouth gathers no foot.
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    ^^ I would never, EVER have my young child's ears pierced, girl or boy. My sons are welcome to have their ear/s pierced at an age where they have the capacity to make that decision about their body and the responsibility and maturity to properly care for it.

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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    While I have chosen to not circumcise my son, I cannot know how I would feel about it if it was a significant part of my cultural upbringing.

    I think the heartbreaking story in this article highlights that families who do choose to have this procedure done need more options.

    I cannot help but feel if they could have taken their son to a reputable hospital then he would have been spared the extended trauma that he suffered.

    Perhaps if children's hospitals performed this procedure for these families then these boys would be getting the best care possible?

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  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witwicky View Post
    The whole point is that religious organisations are not exempt from upholding human rights - their beliefs, no matter how deeply ingrained - does not excuse that behaviour. If it did, there are many abhorrent practices which would still be legal today.

    Just out of curiosity, do you feel this way about FGM? It is a deeply embedded cultural and religious practice.

    What about domestic violence? Sharia law can be interpreted to allow the bashing of wives within the home, and many Islamic men will proudly refer to it to defend their revolting and violent actions. Sharia law is very deeply embedded and is the moral code of Islam. That doesn't excuse the actions though.

    I can understand what you are getting at. Cultural relativism is imperative in understanding different practices between cultures, and to ignore such culturally relevant traditions can seem intolerant of said customs. However, human rights need to be looked at on a universal scale. When we begin exempting particular religions from our international system of human rights, no matter how severe or minor the practice might seem, then the world becomes a very scary place. Little baby boys, from all corners of the world, have the RIGHT to decide whether their genitals are permanently altered.

    I'm also curious to know if you have ever spoken with a male who did not wish to be circumcised as a child? It's really heartbreaking The psychological repercussions are very real and it's so sad.
    I completely get where you are coming from, I can't argue with any of your points because, in part, I agree with you.

    I guess for me, I know many men who are from cultures where it is such a huge part of their identity to be circumcised- some as infants without a choice, and some as an initiation into adulthood (although this takes place usually at the beginning of adolescence), and although its when they are older and technically have a 'choice', its kind of not if you know what I mean. For me, not coming from one of those religions/cultures, I don't understand the importance of it, but I am comfortable letting parents make that decision for their kids, as I make decisions for my kids every day based on what *i* think it is important for them.

    With FGM, I am definitely against it, but at the same time, its one of those things that I think we need to tread very carefully with. Its a really hard one again, because for many women it is integral to their identity, but at the same time, I see it as abhorrent. Personally I don't think it is comparable to male circumcision though, because the roots of FGM lie in controlling women's sexuality, whereas I don't think that is the case for male circumcision. Also FGM in most cases means life-long pain and complicatons for women. For men, USUALLY there is no long-term pain associated with it.

    I don't agree horrible practice should be excused on religious/cultural grounds, but again, I think a lot of those things you mentioned are often about control, and people use religion or culture to justify it. But either way no i don't think it makes it ok, i guess i just see those things as worse long term.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giggle berry View Post
    While I have chosen to not circumcise my son, I cannot know how I would feel about it if it was a significant part of my cultural upbringing.

    I think the heartbreaking story in this article highlights that families who do choose to have this procedure done need more options.

    I cannot help but feel if they could have taken their son to a reputable hospital then he would have been spared the extended trauma that he suffered.

    Perhaps if children's hospitals performed this procedure for these families then these boys would be getting the best care possible?
    They had the option of taking their child to a reputable doctor. Instead they let their decision be made by their wallet and chose the cheapest option they could find. They also waited too long to go to the hospital. My sympathy lies with their son, not with them and their questionable choice.

  13. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annabella View Post
    I completely get where you are coming from, I can't argue with any of your points because, in part, I agree with you.

    I guess for me, I know many men who are from cultures where it is such a huge part of their identity to be circumcised- some as infants without a choice, and some as an initiation into adulthood (although this takes place usually at the beginning of adolescence), and although its when they are older and technically have a 'choice', its kind of not if you know what I mean. For me, not coming from one of those religions/cultures, I don't understand the importance of it, but I am comfortable letting parents make that decision for their kids, as I make decisions for my kids every day based on what *i* think it is important for them.

    With FGM, I am definitely against it, but at the same time, its one of those things that I think we need to tread very carefully with. Its a really hard one again, because for many women it is integral to their identity, but at the same time, I see it as abhorrent. Personally I don't think it is comparable to male circumcision though, because the roots of FGM lie in controlling women's sexuality, whereas I don't think that is the case for male circumcision. Also FGM in most cases means life-long pain and complicatons for women. For men, USUALLY there is no long-term pain associated with it.

    I don't agree horrible practice should be excused on religious/cultural grounds, but again, I think a lot of those things you mentioned are often about control, and people use religion or culture to justify it. But either way no i don't think it makes it ok, i guess i just see those things as worse long term.
    It's interesting that you say that about 'control', given the history of male circumcision in certain cultures.

    I thought I should mention by the way, that there are Jewish and Muslim men who are not happy that the procedure was performed on them. There is actually an organisation called "Jews against circumcision". Their headline description is - "We are a group of educated and enlightened Jews who realize that the bar baric, primitive, torturous, and mutilating practice of circumcision has no place in modern Judaism".

    There are males and females within these religions and cultures who are fighting for the abolishment of certain practices. We are seeing an increase in individuals who are opposed to it and I believe the larger the numbers opposed, the less it will be performed, as it then gives others the courage to say no. A ripple starts a wave. It's just unfortunate that in many situations, they can only say 'no' for their own sons, but not for themselves.

    Also, I wasn't comparing FGM and male circumcision... I tend to avoid doing that on here these days. I merely mentioned it to point out another religious and cultural practice which is actually illegal in Australia, despite it being performed under the veil of religious practice. I don't actually agree that we have to tread carefully with FGM. It is a disgusting, highly abhorrent practice that has no place in society. The fact that women in these patriarchal societies have been told that it is essential for cleanliness/purity/repression of sexuality and therefore have been essentially conditioned into believing it is 'integral', does not make it any more acceptable. Have you read the book "Desert Flower" by Waris Dirie?
    Last edited by Witwicky; 27-08-2012 at 14:37.

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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    Quote Originally Posted by WineTime View Post
    They had the option of taking their child to a reputable doctor. Instead they let their decision be made by their wallet and chose the cheapest option they could find. They also waited too long to go to the hospital. My sympathy lies with their son, not with them and their questionable choice.
    Agreed, sympathy definitely lies with the innocent little boy. Also agree that they put trust in the wrong medical professional and his poor advice.

    From what I've heard from those who are 'pro' though, the options for finding a Dr who will perform the procedure are extremely limited. I just don't think that helps. People whose belief system includes circumcision are going to get it done no matter what. If we limit their options they will then find themselves at the hands of Drs like the one in this article whether it be here or abroad....

  16. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by giggle berry View Post
    From what I've heard from those who are 'pro' though, the options for finding a Dr who will perform the procedure are extremely limited. I just don't think that helps. People whose belief system includes circumcision are going to get it done no matter what. If we limit their options they will then find themselves at the hands of Drs like the one in this article whether it be here or abroad....
    But isn't that akin to blackmail? "I'm going to circ my son regardless if it can be done safely or not because my religion requires this of me". It's mind-boggling to think that a mother and father would knowing put their child at such a risk.

    I'm not sure where it is stated in Jewish Law that an infant boy must be circ'd but I wanted to share some information I have read from a US Jewish website:

    In the Torah, adultery (Lev. 20:10), fornication by women (Deut 22:21), homosexual acts (Lev. 20:13), blasphemy (Lev. 24:16), insulting one's parents (Exodus 21:17), and stubbornly disobeying one's parents (Deut. 21:18-21) are all punishable by death. Obviously, these laws are no longer enforced by traditionalists. In addition, according to Torah law, only a man can divorce his spouse (Deut. 24:1). This law was changed by rabbis to allow a woman to terminate a marriage. The Torah law which restricted inheritance to sons (Deut. 21:15-17) was also changed to allow transfer of property to daughters. Awareness of this precedent for change helps us to view circumcision with openness and flexibility.
    To add, I know very little about Jewish and Muslim law (and Christian law) so if someone with a deeper knowledge about the Torah refutes the above quote then I am more than happy to be proven wrong on this particular matter (ie the Torah contains laws that are no longer practiced).


 
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