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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    Deleted, my point has been made for others.

    Sent from my GT-P5110 using BubHub
    Last edited by speckled; 27-08-2012 at 00:21.

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    I'm on the fence. I would not circumcise my boys unless it was absolutely medically necessary. However I have many close friends who have had their sons done, some for religious reasons, and some for whatever other reason, I'm surprised to be honest that some if them made that decision, but j can assure you they are all very loving parents and I think the term 'child abuse' is being thrown around a bit lightly and is highly offensive and inflammatory.

    I also think its interesting that many of the same people who talk about the child's 'right to bodily autonomy' in cases of circumcision, believe that a childs right to LIFE is overridden by a woman's right to bodily autonomy maybe 10 days prior when they are still In their mother's womb. Yes, I get the whole argument about women not being incubators etc, the rights of an unborn child simply cannot outweigh the rights of a breathing independent woman etc. but it's interesting don't you think, that people who are so passionate avout the child's rights would not advocate for said child's right to stay alive if his mother decided to terminate.

    Anyway I know that's a bit off topic but it's just something I personally find a bit contradictory. just thinking out loud.

    Anyway, that's just my opinion, again I'm not pro-RIC at all, but I dont think i am anti. I guess it's just when I think of my friends who have done it, I can't equate it with child abuse. I'd be happy for laws to be passed like in tas, to make it a bit harder, but I also think we need to allow parents some right to make decisions for their children as well.

  3. #33
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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    Quote Originally Posted by Annabella View Post
    I'm on the fence. I would not circumcise my boys unless it was absolutely medically necessary. However I have many close friends who have had their sons done, some for religious reasons, and some for whatever other reason, I'm surprised to be honest that some if them made that decision, but j can assure you they are all very loving parents and I think the term 'child abuse' is being thrown around a bit lightly and is highly offensive and inflammatory.

    I also think its interesting that many of the same people who talk about the child's 'right to bodily autonomy' in cases of circumcision, believe that a childs right to LIFE is overridden by a woman's right to bodily autonomy maybe 10 days prior when they are still In their mother's womb. Yes, I get the whole argument about women not being incubators etc, the rights of an unborn child simply cannot outweigh the rights of a breathing independent woman etc. but it's interesting don't you think, that people who are so passionate avout the child's rights would not advocate for said child's right to stay alive if his mother decided to terminate.

    Anyway I know that's a bit off topic but it's just something I personally find a bit contradictory. just thinking out loud.

    Anyway, that's just my opinion, again I'm not pro-RIC at all, but I dont think i am anti. I guess it's just when I think of my friends who have done it, I can't equate it with child abuse. I'd be happy for laws to be passed like in tas, to make it a bit harder, but I also think we need to allow parents some right to make decisions for their children as well.
    I'm not one I'd those. I rate the rights of the innocent baby very highly. I think the only time you should be able to do something drastic to
    Another human being (baby) is if your own life is at risk.

  4. #34
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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    You are not talking from experience here.
    I have held my boy during a circumcision. I did not have to 'hold him down'. Just had to make sure he didn't move.... which he didn't. I would not regard it as 'trauma' at all. If anything, I would say that his reactions during his immunisations were much worse.

    But hey, who am I to comment? I am apparently just a child-abusing parent. What would I know? Never mind the months of research that went into our decision. I regularly pay hundreds of dollars for medical procedures that I don't know anything about.
    How old was your boy when he was circumcised? The one in the story was 2 years and from the sound of the story it was traumatic for the kid.
    Last edited by Mod-pegasus; 27-08-2012 at 12:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    You are not talking from experience here.
    I have held my boy during a circumcision. I did not have to 'hold him down'. Just had to make sure he didn't move.... which he didn't. I would not regard it as 'trauma' at all
    Thats just the thing - its nor your call. When it's your body, then you can do whatever the heck you choose to it and decide for yourself if it was traumatic or not. People need to stop assuming ownership of their children and let them grow up and make their own, informed decisions. You don't 'own' your son!
    Last edited by Ellewood; 27-08-2012 at 07:39.

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    I guess with the religion thing, it is bs to those who don't practice that religion but very very important to those that do. I, being a non-Jewish, non-Muslim western woman values bodily autonomy over the parents right to choose something so permanently altering for my child. That is a VALUE based in MY upbringing, culture, class etc etc. Other people have different values, I'm not really sure if it's fair for us to say OUR values are right and others' are wrong.

    We all do things that permanently affect or alter out children in non physical ways, we make decisions as parents about what we think is best for our child, our religion or lack of, the food we feed our kids, the school we send them to, the forms of smfisipline we use, vax/non vax... I guess unless you (we) are part of one of those religions we don't really understand how deeply rites and traitions such as circumcision are embedded in their identity etc.

    I would like to think that slowly it changes and becomes less common- based on MY personal values, but I feel uncomfortable preaching to others that MY way is the right way.

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    On the contrary, we have an obligation to speak up for those who can't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackEyedPea View Post
    Thats just the thing - its nor your call. When it's your body, then you can do whatever the heck you choose to it and decide for yourself if it was traumatic or not. People need to stop assuming ownership of their children and let them grow up and make their own, informed decisions. You don't 'own' your son!
    Yes it is 'my call'. Well, to be more accurate, 'our call'. I include my wife in decision making.
    And I guess our view on raising children is a little different to yours. We don't allow our young children to make their 'own, informed decisions'. We can't. They do not have the ability when they are young to make decisions. This is where parenting comes into it. You, as a parent, MUST make decisions for your children. We accept responsibility for our children 100%. They are not my flatmates. We make them brush their teeth and go to bed we tell them. We choose what they are eating for dinner (at least most of the time, and we will discipline them when we feel it is appropriate.
    It sounds to me like you are living with a human being that you have no control of. I hope that this is not the case, as their are many parents out there that are allowing their kids to 'run wild'.

    Sorry to go on. I went a little off topic there
    But it is something I feel strongly about. We are parents. We have to make decisions about what we feel is in their best interest. Your decision doesn't have to be the same as mine, but I am confident in the decisions I make for my children. I accept responsibility for those decisions. And I feel that my children will be better for it.
    So until my kids are 18, we will 'own' our kids. They are OUR responsibility.

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  13. #39
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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    Quote Originally Posted by Annabella View Post
    I guess with the religion thing, it is bs to those who don't practice that religion but very very important to those that do. I, being a non-Jewish, non-Muslim western woman values bodily autonomy over the parents right to choose something so permanently altering for my child. That is a VALUE based in MY upbringing, culture, class etc etc. Other people have different values, I'm not really sure if it's fair for us to say OUR values are right and others' are wrong.

    We all do things that permanently affect or alter out children in non physical ways, we make decisions as parents about what we think is best for our child, our religion or lack of, the food we feed our kids, the school we send them to, the forms of smfisipline we use, vax/non vax... I guess unless you (we) are part of one of those religions we don't really understand how deeply rites and traitions such as circumcision are embedded in their identity etc.

    I would like to think that slowly it changes and becomes less common- based on MY personal values, but I feel uncomfortable preaching to others that MY way is the right way.
    The whole point is that religious organisations are not exempt from upholding human rights - their beliefs, no matter how deeply ingrained - does not excuse that behaviour. If it did, there are many abhorrent practices which would still be legal today.

    Just out of curiosity, do you feel this way about FGM? It is a deeply embedded cultural and religious practice.

    What about domestic violence? Sharia law can be interpreted to allow the bashing of wives within the home, and many Islamic men will proudly refer to it to defend their revolting and violent actions. Sharia law is very deeply embedded and is the moral code of Islam. That doesn't excuse the actions though.

    I can understand what you are getting at. Cultural relativism is imperative in understanding different practices between cultures, and to ignore such culturally relevant traditions can seem intolerant of said customs. However, human rights need to be looked at on a universal scale. When we begin exempting particular religions from our international system of human rights, no matter how severe or minor the practice might seem, then the world becomes a very scary place. Little baby boys, from all corners of the world, have the RIGHT to decide whether their genitals are permanently altered.

    I'm also curious to know if you have ever spoken with a male who did not wish to be circumcised as a child? It's really heartbreaking The psychological repercussions are very real and it's so sad.

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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    Its interesting that people respond by thinking this is an example is a reason for why people must have access to circumcision. Increasing access to circumcision is not going to reduce the incidence of circumcision related injury. Only reducing circumcision does that.

    Perhaps these parents should have been given information about circumcision and the reasons it's not available. Rather than just being turned loose after being turned away in the public system.

    It's ridiculous to think that the way to reduce the amount of injuries and Trauma endured by young boys as a result of circumcision gone wrong is to ensure it's availability. A reason for the decline in circumcision is because of the inherent risk of an outcome like what happened to this young boy.

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