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  1. #21
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    They talk about this a lot in the article.

    That's one of the reasons I feel neutral about religious circumcision. The last thing we want to do is to "force" people who are going to have it done come hell (or other undesirable afterlife option) or high water, into backyard procedures. It's a tricky one.

    The only thing I am disappointed about in the coverage of the topic in this article, is that the proponents of earlier vs later circumcision talk about ease of restraint rather than the option of a general anaesthetic which is much more controlled and ensures adequate analgesia. It's not even mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by jennibear View Post


    I agree with sweet seven, while its still legal there needs to be avenues of capable doctors to perfom this prodecure.
    It makes me wonder if, it was to become illegal in the future, would people go to the 'black market' to still have this procedure done?? VERY SCAREY

  2. #22
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    Interesting article.

    I do not believe, however, that religion gives anyone a carte blanche to do as they please. If ric is so out of favour with pediatricians and other specialists then why are children of Jewish and Muslim parents not afforded the same rights? The article alludes that Jewish and Muslim parents (and any other parents keen to secure a ric on their baby boy) may seek less that ideal conditions to have the procedure done, thereby putting the baby at further risk so we should allow ric to be undertaken to keep these baby boys safe. That's just blackmail.

    Consider these scenarios:
    - My religion required me to have my newborn baby boy have a tattoo on their right ear. This practice has been long established, it fact it's been around for hundreds of years. It is done as a sign to our God that our child will be raised in our faith.
    - My religion required me to have my baby girl's clitoral hood removed. The baby is given analgesic so she won't feel any pain. This practice was first carried out in chapter x of my holy book and is undertaken as a spiritual connection to our God.

    What would you think if someone insisted that they must be allowed to practice either of the above scenarios?

    It's not about respecting someone's religion and their right to follow their religious convictions, it's about the right of the baby to bodily autonomy and that right trumps everything. I have no issue with adults practicing what every faith they wish, bring it on! Yah! Diversity! My issue is when those beliefs are indoctrinated into children thereby giving them no option than to follow their parents' religion or when religion is used as a basis of social or political policy.

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  4. #23
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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    I don't buy into the "it was the medical professions fault for restricting circumcisions in public hospitals."

    It was partially the parents fault for:
    1. Undertaking, at all cost, an unecessary medical procedure on their son.
    2. Getting their son circumcised at aged 2 instead of earlier when it would have been easier/less traumatic.
    3. Not checking into the Doctor more thoroughly.
    4. Not twigging that the procedure was wrong and/or being conduced in a dodgy manner.... having to hold their agitated sons arm down on the table would create doubt in responsible and caring parents.
    5. Not researching appropriate circumcision methods for toddlers. At that age anything short of knocking the child out cold is just plain cruel.

    Yes I'm judging the parents and yes I think they were wrong and yes I think they are partially to blame for their sons trauma. And yes I think using religion to justify circumcision is a crock of $hit.
    Last edited by VicPark; 26-08-2012 at 20:45.

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  6. #24
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    How could anyone, any parent hold their conscious child down while subjecting them to such trauma? This breaks my heart. I look at my little 2 year-old bub and nothing in the universe could make me do such a thing to him. The fact they could put their son through that ordeal is in my eyes, child abuse.

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    Default Interesting article in Weekend Australian

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackEyedPea View Post
    How could anyone, any parent hold their conscious child down while subjecting them to such trauma? This breaks my heart. I look at my little 2 year-old bub and nothing in the universe could make me do such a thing to him. The fact they could put their son through that ordeal is in my eyes, child abuse.
    I agree

  9. #26
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    I'm not going to provide a link but Christopher Hitchens sums up the argument for me about this matter when he debates with Rabbi Harold Kushner.

    **Warning if you go googling - it is a very strong opinion**

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackEyedPea View Post
    How could anyone, any parent hold their conscious child down while subjecting them to such trauma? The fact they could put their son through that ordeal is in my eyes, child abuse.
    You are not talking from experience here.
    I have held my boy during a circumcision. I did not have to 'hold him down'. Just had to make sure he didn't move.... which he didn't. I would not regard it as 'trauma' at all. If anything, I would say that his reactions during his immunisations were much worse.

    But hey, who am I to comment? I am apparently just a child-abusing parent. What would I know? Never mind the months of research that went into our decision. I regularly pay hundreds of dollars for medical procedures that I don't know anything about.

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Bec~ View Post
    Consider these scenarios:
    - My religion required me to have my newborn baby boy have a tattoo on their right ear. This practice has been long established, it fact it's been around for hundreds of years. It is done as a sign to our God that our child will be raised in our faith.
    - My religion required me to have my baby girl's clitoral hood removed. The baby is given analgesic so she won't feel any pain. This practice was first carried out in chapter x of my holy book and is undertaken as a spiritual connection to our God.

    What would you think if someone insisted that they must be allowed to practice either of the above scenarios?
    I would think that they/you just made up a random religion on the spot with this requirement in order to further their/your anti-circumcision agenda. I would like to read chapter x of their/your holy book though. Can you provide a copy? I'm guessing it would be the only chapter in the book?

    The fact that this is not occurring renders this argument useless. It is not a religious practice that has been carried out for thousands of years.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    I would think that they/you just made up a random religion on the spot with this requirement in order to further their/your anti-circumcision agenda. I would like to read chapter x of their/your holy book though. Can you provide a copy? I'm guessing it would be the only chapter in the book?
    The fact that this is not occurring renders this argument useless. It is not a religious practice that has been carried out for thousands of years.
    Of course it's made up, I thought that was obvious. My point was to make an allegory to illustrate that this would not be so accepting if it were other similar practices. RIC, however, has been so normalised that it is acceptable.

    The point is that religion is not a reason or excuse to violate someone else's human rights (yes human rights, bodily autonomy is a human right). Many Muslims practice FGM as part of their religion, do you think that is acceptable? Remember, the motive here for RIC is not any alleged health benefits, it's because their religion is telling them they have to comply in order to appease their deity. The nature of religion is that for many, critical thinking and/or challenging the beliefs is frowned on whilst unwavering faith is considered a virtue. Religion can make otherwise good, humane, caring people do things they wouldn't ordinarily consider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Bec~ View Post
    Of course it's made up, I thought that was obvious. My point was to make an allegory to illustrate that this would not be so accepting if it were other similar practices. RIC, however, has been so normalised that it is acceptable.

    The point is that religion is not a reason or excuse to violate someone else's human rights (yes human rights, bodily autonomy is a human right). Many Muslims practice FGM as part of their religion, do you think that is acceptable? Remember, the motive here for RIC is not any alleged health benefits, it's because their religion is telling them they have to comply in order to appease their deity. The nature of religion is that for many, critical thinking and/or challenging the beliefs is frowned on whilst unwavering faith is considered a virtue. Religion can make otherwise good, humane, caring people do things they wouldn't ordinarily consider.
    Absolutely...and the way I see it, is that people are saying that Muslim baby boys and Jewish baby boys are not deserving of the same protection as baby boys who are not in the process of being indoctrinated by their parents religion. ALL baby boys deserve the same protection. Religion should never be used as an excuse to violate human rights in any way, shape or form.

    EVERYONE is entitled to bodily integrity, including all babies. An infant's penis is still his, regardless of his cognitive capacity at the time. A parent does not have the right to modify his penis, whether religion is involved or not.
    Last edited by Witwicky; 26-08-2012 at 23:47.

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