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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renn View Post
    Again... nobody (who disagrees with me) is responding to what I'm asking.
    How is it NOT a choice? Whether you think it's a more valid/natural choice is irrelevant. If you have the ability to make a decision between the options then how can it not be a choice?
    I think it's an issue of semantics. No-one is disputing the use of the word "choice", rather the connotations of the term "lifestyle choice".

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    Quote Originally Posted by kw123 View Post
    Not read whole thing but I did not have a baby for the greater good.. I had one because I (we) wanted one. Did you? Really?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renn View Post
    Again... nobody (who disagrees with me) is responding to what I'm asking.
    How is it NOT a choice? Whether you think it's a more valid/natural choice is irrelevant. If you have the ability to make a decision between the options then how can it not be a choice?

    That statement's also completely unfair. There are plenty of people here (myself included) who see children as a lifestyle choice, and have chosen to have children. Calling something a choice doesn't mean you value it any less - only that you're acknowledging that somewhere along the line that person had other options.
    IMO, here is why . Just because we have the intellecual capacity to rationalise, justify, take steps to make it not happen, doesn't mean it is a *lifestyle choice*.

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    Default Are children a "lifestyle choice"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialPatrolGroup View Post
    KW, can I ask you seriously, have you ever examined the reasons why you wanted children, what drove you to that decision?
    It's a good question and yes I have

    Are you asking the question because you think that societal norms may have contributed to my decision? If so, then I agree with you as I think they did. But mostly because they are so darn cute I wanted a little person who was half me and DH, to watch them grow up, go to school, become an adult, and to give me grandchildren one day lol! I think this does mainly fit in with me wanting them for myself rather than to benefit society?

    Although I'm sure my offspring will contribute enormously to the greater good of course as they will be so awesome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    Further, I would argue that the urge to reproduce is also instinct for many humans. I can attest to the fact that this instinct can surpass all logical reasoning!
    Agree. I have 2 kids and have this overwhelming uncontrollable urge to have a 3rd. While physically getting pg is a choice, the choice to become pg almost isn't one.... if that makes sense lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialPatrolGroup View Post
    IMO, here is why . Just because we have the intellecual capacity to rationalise, justify, take steps to make it not happen, doesn't mean it is a *lifestyle choice*.
    Thankyou for actually giving an answer.
    I disagree with you, but that's not the point. Just wanted somebody to fully explain their reasoning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by babyla View Post
    I think this is the question... The answer is no. IMO having a baby is a lifestyle choice for the couple but it also serves a wider societal function.
    I think this is a good way of putting it, although I appreciate it doesn't address the later question of whether all lifestyle choices are equal (i.e., should having a baby be given the same weight in society as having a tattoo/ badminton competition/ sudoku addiction?)

    I accept that societally we need to have children, and therefore it is important that we value this and work together to make it possible for people to do this.

    Societally it is less important for someone to indulge in their favourite hobby. So they are not equal.

    But... that's at a societal level. At an individual level I understand the inclination to call it a lifestyle choice and treat it as such.

    For a long time I did not want children. I have never been a maternal person, never wanted to hold other people's babies, and never felt any physical longing/ biological urge to have children. DH and I made the decision to try for DD on the basis that we felt we would regret not having children in the future, and because we pictured our lives with children in it (amongst other things, but that's a brief outline).

    After having DD we both suddenly 'got it'. I understood why people liked children (!) and we both fell in love with her. We're now trying for another because we know how wonderful it is and how much joy DD brings to us.

    But I've never felt that 'biological urge' that some people describe and, pre-DD, I didn't understand it.

    I guess what I'm saying is that if your friend doesn't have children of her own, and hasn't felt that urge to have children, then she may well view it as a 'mental' decision rather than a 'physical' one. And society probably hasn't entered into her thoughts at all. It took having kids for me to change my thinking on this one.

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    It's much of a muchness IMO... She may use the term 'lifestyle choice' but she's still a 'parent' just like the rest of us whatever her opinions regarding government, employee leave benefits etc. It wouldn't occur to me to be offended or annoyed by the phrasing... There's worse things one could say.

  10. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackEyedPea View Post
    It's much of a muchness IMO... She may use the term 'lifestyle choice' but she's still a 'parent' just like the rest of us whatever her opinions regarding government, employee leave benefits etc. It wouldn't occur to me to be offended or annoyed by the phrasing... There's worse things one could say.
    I think you've misunderstood, she doesn't have children. And I've never been offended by what she's said, just disagreed with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kw123 View Post
    It's a good question and yes I have

    Are you asking the question because you think that societal norms may have contributed to my decision? If so, then I agree with you as I think they did. But mostly because they are so darn cute I wanted a little person who was half me and DH, to watch them grow up, go to school, become an adult, and to give me grandchildren one day lol! I think this does mainly fit in with me wanting them for myself rather than to benefit society?

    Although I'm sure my offspring will contribute enormously to the greater good of course as they will be so awesome!
    And see, they are biologically created to be cute and gorgeous with their little squishy peaches, and their little heart shaped lips, just looking enough like their dads so they see themselves in them and don't eat them, and we are programmed to respond to them as we do - to nurture and protect them, so they grow up to be big and strong, to be able to provide for the herd, ensure that the elders are taken care of against predators, and that the elders are able to help us care for their young while we go and provide. We may not live in caves anymore but our social structure are rooted in this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl X View Post
    I think this is a good way of putting it, although I appreciate it doesn't address the later question of whether all lifestyle choices are equal (i.e., should having a baby be given the same weight in society as having a tattoo/ badminton competition/ sudoku addiction?)

    I accept that societally we need to have children, and therefore it is important that we value this and work together to make it possible for people to do this.

    Societally it is less important for someone to indulge in their favourite hobby. So they are not equal.

    But... that's at a societal level. At an individual level I understand the inclination to call it a lifestyle choice and treat it as such.

    For a long time I did not want children. I have never been a maternal person, never wanted to hold other people's babies, and never felt any physical longing/ biological urge to have children. DH and I made the decision to try for DD on the basis that we felt we would regret not having children in the future, and because we pictured our lives with children in it (amongst other things, but that's a brief outline).

    After having DD we both suddenly 'got it'. I understood why people liked children (!) and we both fell in love with her. We're now trying for another because we know how wonderful it is and how much joy DD brings to us.

    But I've never felt that 'biological urge' that some people describe and, pre-DD, I didn't understand it.

    I guess what I'm saying is that if your friend doesn't have children of her own, and hasn't felt that urge to have children, then she may well view it as a 'mental' decision rather than a 'physical' one. And society probably hasn't entered into her thoughts at all. It took having kids for me to change my thinking on this one.
    Wow - I could have written this. I agree 100%. I also had no urge and for me it was entirely a mental decision with massive lifestyle implications.

    You're right there are macro and micro implications; macro - societal implications and micro - individual implications, it's these individual implications which relate to the term 'lifestyle choice'.

    I can also see how some people might feel this is a somewhat flippant turn of phrase.

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