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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToBe View Post
    I believe it is a plausible theory that multiple vaccines could be tied in to auto immune disorders/diseases that develop later in life.
    Why do you believe? Have you read something? Have you seen some studies? If so then link them. I am interested in reading all things, even negative studies on vaccination. I am not so pro vaccination that I am blinded to anything else.

    I read that one study that was posted. From what I read it had interesting hypothesis but not really enough to sway my current philosophies on vaccinating.

    You are right, there is still so much that medical scientist don't know about the immune system, in relation to auto immune disease, could it not be the same as Autism, that it isn't in fact more common, but more known about now and therefore more widely diagnosed? I am just musing here by the way - I have no idea.

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    Default Here we go, measles outbreak in Campbeltown and all the children involved were not fu

    Quote Originally Posted by Ffrenchknickers View Post
    When dd had whooping cough I didn't waste my energy being angry at anybody, blaming or pointing fingers. What a waste of time.
    Well aren't you a good person for having such a level head then

  4. #203
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    Ulysses is offline In the eyes of a child you will see...the world as it should be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToBe View Post
    It is a fact that the long term effect of vaccinations on the immune system of humans has not been tested against a non-vaccinated control group. Obviously this concerns some parents. I don't know why this is so dismissed by others.
    I am unsure of what type of testing outcome you would get from using a non vaccinated control group? All you have to do is compare people who are not vaccinated with those who are vaccinated?

    In such a study you could not rule out confounding factors, environmental aspects etc either.

    Can you please elaborate on what exactly you mean by this statement - it is just a bit unclear to me?

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    It seems common sense that the unnatural introduction of a dozen strains of disease at one time into a young child's immune system could potentially be detrimental. Unfortunately no studies to link, as I stated.

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    Ulysses is offline In the eyes of a child you will see...the world as it should be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToBe View Post
    It seems common sense that the unnatural introduction of a dozen strains of disease at one time into a young child's immune system could potentially be detrimental. Unfortunately no studies to link, as I stated.
    sorry, i am still confused - what do think is missing from a study comparing vaccinated people to non vaccinated people? The majority of the population is vaccinated and links between disease and medicine are not proved by comparing to groups that do not receive them - that is not how the empirical method works - that would be called correlation and cannot be used to infer causation - therefore would not be helpful.

    to prove causation you need to do three things;
    1. time order relationship
    2. rule out confounding variables
    3. they need to co vary (the two variables)

    There could just as easily be a correlation between peanut butter and autism - this is the example i made earlier of people who do not understanf science trying to interpret it themselves.
    Last edited by Ulysses; 17-08-2012 at 09:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    I am unsure of what type of testing outcome you would get from using a non vaccinated control group? All you have to do is compare people who are not vaccinated with those who are vaccinated?

    In such a study you could not rule out confounding factors, environmental aspects etc either.

    Can you please elaborate on what exactly you mean by this statement - it is just a bit unclear to me?
    I'm not sure what further clarification you need. Where is a study comparing health outcomes of fully vaccinated v non vaccinated human adults? Is there one? Isn't it obvious what could be achieved by such a study? Aren't there conflicting environmental factors of most long term studies eg. birth outcomes? Don't researchers account for these when interpreting results?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    sorry, i am still confused - what do think is missing from a study comparing vaccinated people to non vaccinated people? The majority of the population is vaccinated and links between disease and medicine are not proved by comparing to groups that do not receive them - that is not how the empirical method works - that would be called correlation and cannot be used to infer causation - therefore would not be helpful.

    There could just as easily be a correlation between peanut butter and autism - this is the example i made earlier of people who do not understanf science trying to interpret it themselves.
    And this is the perfect example of what a failure medical worship makes of looking at humans holistically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ffrenchknickers View Post
    When dd had whooping cough I didn't waste my energy being angry at anybody, blaming or pointing fingers. What a waste of time.
    I'd be very angry, especially if I knew they had caught it from children or adults who said they didn't vax due to their 'intuition'. Sometimes people ARE to blame for doing the wrong thing and identifying that wrongdoing can prevent it from happening again. I can't brush it all off with 'oh its their choice' when it affects others so badly.

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    Atropos  (17-08-2012),beebs  (17-08-2012),Ulysses  (17-08-2012)

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    Default Here we go, measles outbreak in Campbeltown and all the children involved were not fu

    I think what she is saying is that there has never been a study ( or likely to be one) on the long term effects with the current recommended schedule of 29 vaccines by 18 months of age, to do this you would need thousands of babies half vaccinated half not, in similar environments, study them for 10 plus years

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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Why do you believe? Have you read something? Have you seen some studies? If so then link them. I am interested in reading all things, even negative studies on vaccination. I am not so pro vaccination that I am blinded to anything else.

    I read that one study that was posted. From what I read it had interesting hypothesis but not really enough to sway my current philosophies on vaccinating.

    You are right, there is still so much that medical scientist don't know about the immune system, in relation to auto immune disease, could it not be the same as Autism, that it isn't in fact more common, but more known about now and therefore more widely diagnosed? I am just musing here by the way - I have no idea.
    My dd's paed and paediatric gastroenterologist said there are current studies underway regarding possible links between the vax schedule and her auto-immune disease, however at the time (over a year ago) the studies were not yet complete.

    However, as you know my dd is not fully vaxed, and not to schedule, I am fully vaxed and carry the gene but don't have the disease, and my mum had very few vaxes (lived in the bush with limited access to anything medical) until 4 years ago when she started working with Indigenous children in a school, it was part of her being employed there. Although not tested until dd's diagnosis, she has had symptoms her entire adult life and before that she lived off fruit, veg and rice growing up so no symptoms could be present.


 

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