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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartiecat View Post
    Before I had children I worked in an office ... Our hours were 8-6 everyday BUT our manager was the only one who had a child so she worked 8.30-5.30 because she had to pick him up from childcare the other staff in the office were expected to cover her for this time.

    This is where I get totally lost with feminism ... See I totally respect her being a working mother but why should that be at the expense of other people working in that environment?

    This also happens to my dh; the lady who works for him (and we all love her to pieces) but if she has a day off work (wether it is for herself being sick or her child) he will have to make up for her work and will get home 1-2 hrs later (he already works 7.30-6.30 as a general rule).

    Does this make sense?
    The issue isn't mums dashing off 30 mins early to collect kids from a DC or after school care that;s closing, it's partly the business (and most employers) who are unsupportive of families, demand long hours and only care about bottom lines. Also partly the lack of a village where grandma or aunt can pick the kids up and watch them until knock off time.

    I'm assuming you are either at home with the kids or work and deal with the pick ups not your DH. What if, heaven forbid, something happened to you and your DH was left to care for the kids. Would you change your mind about him needing a sick day or leaving half and hour early? or would you just expect him to suck it up and have your kids sick at school or DC? the only difference I see between your DH and these women are that they are responsible for pick ups and sick days and he isn't.

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  3. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by shelle65 View Post
    Yes it makes sense, but the problem doesn't lie with feminisim - it lies with an outdated work structure that was based on the patriarchal notion that only men who weren't primary carers worked in these types of environments.

    It's not feminism or the working mother that makes it unfair for your husband - it is your husband's employer who does not put adequate measures in place to ensure that the work is spread evenly and any inequity is rectified.

    Ultimately it will affect the working mother negatively too, as she may be resented by her colleagues, be seen as not pulling her weight, will get bad performance reviews and therefore lower payrises... Feiminism doesn't support this at all.

    I'm sure there are things the employer could do to spread the work more evenly. However most employers won't - they will simply allow it all to unfold, the resentment to grow, and then it will be "well, we tried employing a working mother but that didn't end well for us". THIS is why we need feminism - not to just put women in the workplace, but to make it worthwhile for everyone for them to be there.
    Thank you!!

    <sigh> I like you Shell!

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  5. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg2 View Post
    Getting back to the issue of people using the term ‘feminism’ or not, there is no doubt that the feminist movement has achieved some great things, I don’t think many people here have denied that. I think the problem with the use of the word has been highlighted well in this thread; it covers such a diverse range of ideologies and views that it has really become meaningless in general conversation unless you put a huge explanation or disclaimer after it. That leaves the term open to misinterpretation, and people can attack you based on what they think feminism means, rather than on anything that you have actually said. In extreme cases you even get bizarre, nonsensical arguments like the one tough love put up early on (). I think this is the case with any broad ranging label, your stance gets lumped in with a whole lot of other things that you may not believe in. People are fundamentally lazy – they will fall back on tired old anti-feminist arguments rather than respond to what you are trying to explain to them.

    To actually achieve rational debate about a particular topic I find that it is best focus on the specific points you actually want to make and stay away from labels like this, not because I disagree with them, but just because it clouds people’s thinking and makes it difficult to focus on the topic at hand.
    Meg2, I wholeheartedly agree with you that this is what happens, but the idea of not using the term just because others might jump to an erroneous conclusion about me irks me. Just my opinion, not saying it has to apply to others.

    Call me stubborn. Call me proud - I am proud to call myself a feminist, and will do so 'til the cows come home. Call me lazy for wanting to use shorthand. Would a Christian (a Muslim, a gay person, etc., etc.,) be expected to not call themselves a Christian because others will make erroneous assumptions about them, or might question their beliefs? Others are always going to make erroneous assumptions about you, no matter what you do.
    Last edited by Petulia; 09-08-2012 at 19:45. Reason: spelling

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  7. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petulia View Post
    Meg2, I wholeheartedly agree with you that this is what happens, but the idea of not using the term just because others might jump to an erroneous conclusion about me irks me. Just my opinion, not saying it has to apply to others.

    Call me stubborn. Call me proud - I am proud to call myself a feminist, and will do so 'til the cows some home. Call me lazy for wanting to use shorthand. Would a Christian (a Muslim, a gay person, etc., etc.,) be expected to not call themselves a Christian because others will make erroneous assumptions about them, or might question their beliefs? Others are always going to make erroneous assumptions about you, no matter what you do.
    Exactly!

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  9. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    The issue isn't mums dashing off 30 mins early to collect kids from a DC or after school care that;s closing, it's partly the business (and most employers) who are unsupportive of families, demand long hours and only care about bottom lines. Also partly the lack of a village where grandma or aunt can pick the kids up and watch them until knock off time.

    I'm assuming you are either at home with the kids or work and deal with the pick ups not your DH. What if, heaven forbid, something happened to you and your DH was left to care for the kids. Would you change your mind about him needing a sick day or leaving half and hour early? or would you just expect him to suck it up and have your kids sick at school or DC? the only difference I see between your DH and these women are that they are responsible for pick ups and sick days and he isn't.
    I'm a sahm ... I could never afford to return to work with the cost of cc ... My point is if a mother needs to be with her child (and that is understandable) is there not something wrong with it being at the cost of a fathers time with his children.

    Rather than just blame employers and their outdated models ... I guess I am genuinely looking for feminist views on fathers? (not sure I expressing myself here??)

    Ok here's another example I am curious about ... I saw a thread on bh the other day ... The woman felt done with children but her dh wanted another, the first response on the thread was ... Is he going to sit up late, have a sore body, etc ... The implication was clear that it was the woman's decision, honestly I didn't read further in the thread. There was another thread ... Poster was upset her dh has pinched babies nose to getbit to open mouth to eat ... The dh ultimately apologized but posters were saying don't leave baby with him. I just find that on bh a lot men aren't allowed a learning curve or to do it their way(I'm not advocating pinching a babies nose) but it must be the others way ... It's almost like they are the woman's children.

    Don't get me started on when people call the fathers sperm donors!!!

    Where is the equity and equality in the above??? This is what i personally struggle with.

  10. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartiecat View Post
    I'm a sahm ... I could never afford to return to work with the cost of cc ... My point is if a mother needs to be with her child (and that is understandable) is there not something wrong with it being at the cost of a fathers time with his children.

    Rather than just blame employers and their outdated models ... I guess I am genuinely looking for feminist views on fathers? (not sure I expressing myself here??)

    Ok here's another example I am curious about ... I saw a thread on bh the other day ... The woman felt done with children but her dh wanted another, the first response on the thread was ... Is he going to sit up late, have a sore body, etc ... The implication was clear that it was the woman's decision, honestly I didn't read further in the thread. There was another thread ... Poster was upset her dh has pinched babies nose to getbit to open mouth to eat ... The dh ultimately apologized but posters were saying don't leave baby with him. I just find that on bh a lot men aren't allowed a learning curve or to do it their way(I'm not advocating pinching a babies nose) but it must be the others way ... It's almost like they are the woman's children.

    Don't get me started on when people call the fathers sperm donors!!!

    Where is the equity and equality in the above??? This is what i personally struggle with.
    There IS something wrong if father HAS to sacrifice his time with his child simply if the only reason is so the mother can have more time - how is that fair? Equality would ensure that there was paid paternity leave for as long as a woman was paid maternity leave. But until raising a child is recognized as having a valuee it won't happen and it will continue to relegated as women's work.

    Women want equality, but we do recognize that men and women are not the same - and one thing that isn't 'fair' is that a woman does gestate the child and as a result. It's her body her choice to not have a pregnancy - exactly the same as if a father doesn't want more kids he can take steps to ensure it doesn't happen.

    As for not leaving a child with a person who force feeds them by pinching their nose - I wouldnt leave a child with them no matter what gender or parent they were - that's not sexist that's common sense and protecting a child.

    As for calling men - if the FOB's - if they step up and act like fathers then they'll get recgonised as fathers - until then sperm doner is probably the most polite term I've seen. It certainly beats what I've heard men call the MOB's when he 'has' to pay CS.

    I understand your struggle but it is against those things that frustrate you that feminists try to rectify.

    Misandry is not a goal of feminists, and most fight against that as much as we fight against misogyny

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  12. #287
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    My understanding men get labeled sperm donor because that's literally the only contribution he's made. It's far more polite than all the colourful things I'd call a person abandoning a child they created.


    Sent from my GT-I9300 using BubHub

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  14. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartiecat View Post
    I'm a sahm ... I could never afford to return to work with the cost of cc ... My point is if a mother needs to be with her child (and that is understandable) is there not something wrong with it being at the cost of a fathers time with his children.
    so what do you suggest to remedy the issue of working parents needing to take sick days and pick kids up?

    Ok here's another example I am curious about ... I saw a thread on bh the other day ... The woman felt done with children but her dh wanted another, the first response on the thread was ... Is he going to sit up late, have a sore body, etc ... The implication was clear that it was the woman's decision, honestly I didn't read further in the thread. There was another thread ... Poster was upset her dh has pinched babies nose to getbit to open mouth to eat ... The dh ultimately apologized but posters were saying don't leave baby with him. I just find that on bh a lot men aren't allowed a learning curve or to do it their way(I'm not advocating pinching a babies nose) but it must be the others way ... It's almost like they are the woman's children.

    Don't get me started on when people call the fathers sperm donors!!!

    Where is the equity and equality in the above??? This is what i personally struggle with.
    I didn't see the first thread you are talking about but I actually responded to the one where the father pinched the child's nose, and I, amongst most of the responders said give him a break, he's not perfect. I think one maybe 2 come down on him.

    I've seen negative threads about partners, usually tbh they deserve it but I've also seen nice threads about women that trust and love their husbands, and I'm one of those... On the flipside I've seen threads where male members complain about their wives too, maybe deservingly. remember 99% of the regular members here are women. I never speak badly of my DH here, and whether I stick up for a member has nothing to do with their gender....

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  16. #289
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    I do agree that children are seen as 'belonging' to their mother. This is because mothers (generally) do most of the work when it comes to raising children

    I know if DS is sick his father would never take a day off, his employers would never complain that he takes too much time off to look after a sick child because that's the "mother's job".

    I do know that FOB is hailed as a hero for doing SUCH a great job raising DS when he sees him (by choice) a handful of times per year. If DS plays up, it's my fault, where has the mother gone wrong, she works long hours, she's not there yet I am the bloody one trying my best as opposed to fobbing the work off to someone else!

    When DS was in hospital it was assumed that I would stay. I did. I was covered in sh!t, vomit so went home to change clothes and come straight back. When I returned I was lectured by the burses for being so awful and leaving my baby I left him with his father. "where is the mother" is what was asked while I was gone for that entire half an hour out of three days!

    Anyway, I find it funny that so many are quick to bag working mums because they take time off yet nobody would ever question a working father or make assumptions. No need for femnism, hey?

    Re feeling pressure to return to work, feminists cannot help the cost of living. That ain't our fault! I feel immense pressure to be a SAHM and am often accused of"putting lifestyle before family". This is the pressure placed on women, no matter what we do we are doing the wrong thing, hence why we need feminism.

    [/rant]

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    My DDs bio father accused me of being a bad parent for working full time when he refused to pay CS. Sometimes you just can't win!

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