Until MEN are equally accepted into traditionally held female roles, then equality also hasn't been achieved.
Because the Australian workplace does not yet value women and women work, women still get traditional women's work type jobs - child care and food service - which are lower paid than most traditional men's work type jobs.
Even many women that work within no gender specific work places still get paid less than men doing the same jobs.
So yes, feminism still has a looong way to go, and then once we get 'there' on an equal footing as men, then we can be an example and help people in other countries to achieve that same equal status.
Whether this comes about through feminism, or anti-capitalism or by any other ism I don’t really care – I just think it would make our society a bit less antagonistic and competitive.
Ps leaving at 5:15... I plan on leaving at 4!
Getting back to the issue of people using the term ‘feminism’ or not, there is no doubt that the feminist movement has achieved some great things, I don’t think many people here have denied that. I think the problem with the use of the word has been highlighted well in this thread; it covers such a diverse range of ideologies and views that it has really become meaningless in general conversation unless you put a huge explanation or disclaimer after it. That leaves the term open to misinterpretation, and people can attack you based on what they think feminism means, rather than on anything that you have actually said. In extreme cases you even get bizarre, nonsensical arguments like the one tough love put up early on (). I think this is the case with any broad ranging label, your stance gets lumped in with a whole lot of other things that you may not believe in. People are fundamentally lazy – they will fall back on tired old anti-feminist arguments rather than respond to what you are trying to explain to them.
To actually achieve rational debate about a particular topic I find that it is best focus on the specific points you actually want to make and stay away from labels like this, not because I disagree with them, but just because it clouds people’s thinking and makes it difficult to focus on the topic at hand.
Does the role you are in have the potential to bring in big money for the employer, thus creating a means for that employer to pay you more? Unfortunately a lot of carer roles (including teachers) don't have that earning potential. A stock broker on the other hand has the potential to make a big profit for the company.
(not saying carer roles are any less valuable to society).
That being said I really like your point about if there was more equal pay accross 'traditional' roles then men would be more inclined to work in traditional female roles and SAHP's would be valued more by society. This point made me think.
Last edited by Meg2; 09-08-2012 at 15:46.
This is where I get totally lost with feminism ... See I totally respect her being a working mother but why should that be at the expense of other people working in that environment?
This also happens to my dh; the lady who works for him (and we all love her to pieces) but if she has a day off work (wether it is for herself being sick or her child) he will have to make up for her work and will get home 1-2 hrs later (he already works 7.30-6.30 as a general rule).
Does this make sense?
We need to stop thinking in terms of "me" and "I", our society has geared us to think this way, "why should I have to suffer if someone else has kids"? "Why are kids allowed on planes and then they scream and keep me awake"? "Why are the mothers club allowed into cafes blocking up the walkway"? etc. What we should really be thinking is "if we all pitch in then things would be so much better for everyone." Those kids are the ones who are going to be looking after all us old people one day.
And children get sick, the get injured, it is life, we need to look after them, there really isn't any other alternative.
Let us flip this for a second as well, why should working parents have to suffer at the expense of small businesses who can't survive a day without an employee?
It's not feminism or the working mother that makes it unfair for your husband - it is your husband's employer who does not put adequate measures in place to ensure that the work is spread evenly and any inequity is rectified.
Ultimately it will affect the working mother negatively too, as she may be resented by her colleagues, be seen as not pulling her weight, will get bad performance reviews and therefore lower payrises... Feiminism doesn't support this at all.
I'm sure there are things the employer could do to spread the work more evenly. However most employers won't - they will simply allow it all to unfold, the resentment to grow, and then it will be "well, we tried employing a working mother but that didn't end well for us". THIS is why we need feminism - not to just put women in the workplace, but to make it worthwhile for everyone for them to be there.
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