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  1. #271
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    This sounds awfully like the way women used to be accused of being "too sexy" and "asking for it" in sexual assault cases. I don't think you realise this VicPark - but everything you write is proving exactly why feminism is still needed. So

    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Women doing the bulk of childcaring and housework can't be used to say we still have a long way to go before it really is a choice.

    Women can choose partners that aren't chauvinists. They can Choose partners that will help out their fair share. Women can choose to put their foot down and not be slaves.

    If a woman chooses to get herself in/stay in a relationship where she does the bulk of 'traditional' women's work, then that's her choice. It on her. But we can't then use it to say feminism has a long way to go.

    It's about time we empower women to improve their own situations ... to get some balls .... instead of expecting the feminism fairy to wave her magic wand and all of a sudden make 'it' happen.

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  3. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Women doing the bulk of childcaring and housework can't be used to say we still have a long way to go before it really is a choice.

    Women can choose partners that aren't chauvinists. They can Choose partners that will help out their fair share. Women can choose to put their foot down and not be slaves.

    If a woman chooses to get herself in/stay in a relationship where she does the bulk of 'traditional' women's work, then that's her choice. It on her. But we can't then use it to say feminism has a long way to go.

    It's about time we empower women to improve their own situations ... to get some balls .... instead of expecting the feminism fairy to wave her magic wand and all of a sudden make 'it' happen.
    Before women can choose partners that's aren't chauvinist they need to understand that they have choice. A girl brought up within chauvinistic family with a down trodden mother won't understand her own ability to choose. People have a habit of sticking with what they know.

    Until MEN are equally accepted into traditionally held female roles, then equality also hasn't been achieved.

    Because the Australian workplace does not yet value women and women work, women still get traditional women's work type jobs - child care and food service - which are lower paid than most traditional men's work type jobs.

    Even many women that work within no gender specific work places still get paid less than men doing the same jobs.

    So yes, feminism still has a looong way to go, and then once we get 'there' on an equal footing as men, then we can be an example and help people in other countries to achieve that same equal status.

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  5. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkingClassMum View Post

    Until MEN are equally accepted into traditionally held female roles, then equality also hasn't been achieved.

    Because the Australian workplace does not yet value women and women work, women still get traditional women's work type jobs - child care and food service - which are lower paid than most traditional men's work type jobs.
    I strongly agree with the need to address the unequal valuing of the work that has historically been done by each gender. I think really important gains would be made for both men and women if we could get past the idea that carer roles such as child care, aged care and nursing are less important than business/economic roles such as accountant or bank manager. If we could see all these roles as equally important (and this was reflected in the salaries) I think it would give a whole lot more freedom to men to choose roles that currently are seen as unmanly (eg nurse or SAHD). It would mean that the work done by SAHM/D was more highly valued and through that people would feel more empowered to choose the lifestyle/work that most suited them (we could maybe move past the debate over whether it was better to be a SAHM or go back to work).


    Whether this comes about through feminism, or anti-capitalism or by any other ism I don’t really care – I just think it would make our society a bit less antagonistic and competitive.

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  7. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by shelle65 View Post
    Vicpark - you sound like you have a personality very similar to me.

    I don't take any sh*t from the people I work with. No one would dare say anything about the fact that I leave at 5.15 to pick DD up from school, or complain when I can't come in to work because DD is sick.

    I don't listen to anyone who might say I should be at home with my daughter and not at work. I would just laugh at them.

    BUT the thing is - not all women are like you and me. And why should they be? We are all different, we all have different personalities. Just like there are outgoing, demanding men and there are quiet, non-confrontational men.

    I fight the fight for those who can't yet fight for themselves. Not for me - I'm sorted. But there are so many who aren't.
    I agree ... If I see another women being wronged (eg others bagging her for leaving at 5pm to pick up kids)...ill say something to defend her. But I'll also tell the woman in private that she should stand up for herself. If she doesn't and it continually happens then well *sigh* and she can't then use the bagging to say women cop a raw deal.

    Ps leaving at 5:15... I plan on leaving at 4!

  8. #275
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    Getting back to the issue of people using the term ‘feminism’ or not, there is no doubt that the feminist movement has achieved some great things, I don’t think many people here have denied that. I think the problem with the use of the word has been highlighted well in this thread; it covers such a diverse range of ideologies and views that it has really become meaningless in general conversation unless you put a huge explanation or disclaimer after it. That leaves the term open to misinterpretation, and people can attack you based on what they think feminism means, rather than on anything that you have actually said. In extreme cases you even get bizarre, nonsensical arguments like the one tough love put up early on (). I think this is the case with any broad ranging label, your stance gets lumped in with a whole lot of other things that you may not believe in. People are fundamentally lazy – they will fall back on tired old anti-feminist arguments rather than respond to what you are trying to explain to them.



    To actually achieve rational debate about a particular topic I find that it is best focus on the specific points you actually want to make and stay away from labels like this, not because I disagree with them, but just because it clouds people’s thinking and makes it difficult to focus on the topic at hand.

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  10. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg2 View Post
    I strongly agree with the need to address the unequal valuing of the work that has historically been done by each gender. I think really important gains would be made for both men and women if we could get past the idea that carer roles such as child care, aged care and nursing are less important than business/economic roles such as accountant or bank manager. If we could see all these roles as equally important (and this was reflected in the salaries) I think it would give a whole lot more freedom to men to choose roles that currently are seen as unmanly (eg nurse or SAHD). It would mean that the work done by SAHM/D was more highly valued and through that people would feel more empowered to choose the lifestyle/work that most suited them (we could maybe move past the debate over whether it was better to be a SAHM or go back to work).


    Whether this comes about through feminism, or anti-capitalism or by any other ism I don’t really care – I just think it would make our society a bit less antagonistic and competitive.
    A lot of it has to do with earning potential: There has to be a means by which the employer can pay a higher wage.

    Does the role you are in have the potential to bring in big money for the employer, thus creating a means for that employer to pay you more? Unfortunately a lot of carer roles (including teachers) don't have that earning potential. A stock broker on the other hand has the potential to make a big profit for the company.
    (not saying carer roles are any less valuable to society).

    That being said I really like your point about if there was more equal pay accross 'traditional' roles then men would be more inclined to work in traditional female roles and SAHP's would be valued more by society. This point made me think.

  11. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    A lot of it has to do with earning potential: There has to be a means by which the employer can pay a higher wage.

    Does the role you are in have the potential to bring in big money for the employer, thus creating a means for that employer to pay you more? Unfortunately a lot of carer roles (including teachers) don't have that earning potential. A stock broker on the other hand has the potential to make a big profit for the company.
    (not saying carer roles are any less valuable to society).

    That being said I really like your point about if there was more equal pay accross 'traditional' roles then men would be more inclined to work in traditional female roles and SAHP's would be valued more by society. This point made me think.
    Well, to be honest I don’t think I’m up to the task of setting out the economic guidelines to make this happen. But since we are just chatting I'll let myself dream about how we could do this. My initial feeling is that a lot of people in the finance industry are often grossly overpaid (relatively speaking), so I’d be more inclined to look at reducing overpaid professions first before thinking about increasing wages for others (potentially in the form of heavy taxes/levies – something like that). Then I guess you’d get into the realm of government subsidies to ensure equal pay across professions. Really, nothing much more that a complete restructuring of our economic system – not too much to ask surely? (I know, I wouldn’t be a very popular prime minister).
    Last edited by Meg2; 09-08-2012 at 16:46.

  12. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by shelle65 View Post
    Vicpark - you sound like you have a personality very similar to me.

    I don't take any sh*t from the people I work with. No one would dare say anything about the fact that I leave at 5.15 to pick DD up from school, or complain when I can't come in to work because DD is sick.

    I don't listen to anyone who might say I should be at home with my daughter and not at work. I would just laugh at them.

    BUT the thing is - not all women are like you and me. And why should they be? We are all different, we all have different personalities. Just like there are outgoing, demanding men and there are quiet, non-confrontational men.

    I fight the fight for those who can't yet fight for themselves. Not for me - I'm sorted. But there are so many who aren't.
    Before I had children I worked in an office ... Our hours were 8-6 everyday BUT our manager was the only one who had a child so she worked 8.30-5.30 because she had to pick him up from childcare the other staff in the office were expected to cover her for this time.

    This is where I get totally lost with feminism ... See I totally respect her being a working mother but why should that be at the expense of other people working in that environment?

    This also happens to my dh; the lady who works for him (and we all love her to pieces) but if she has a day off work (wether it is for herself being sick or her child) he will have to make up for her work and will get home 1-2 hrs later (he already works 7.30-6.30 as a general rule).

    Does this make sense?

  13. #279
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    We need to stop thinking in terms of "me" and "I", our society has geared us to think this way, "why should I have to suffer if someone else has kids"? "Why are kids allowed on planes and then they scream and keep me awake"? "Why are the mothers club allowed into cafes blocking up the walkway"? etc. What we should really be thinking is "if we all pitch in then things would be so much better for everyone." Those kids are the ones who are going to be looking after all us old people one day.

    And children get sick, the get injured, it is life, we need to look after them, there really isn't any other alternative.

    Let us flip this for a second as well, why should working parents have to suffer at the expense of small businesses who can't survive a day without an employee?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smartiecat View Post
    Before I had children I worked in an office ... Our hours were 8-6 everyday BUT our manager was the only one who had a child so she worked 8.30-5.30 because she had to pick him up from childcare the other staff in the office were expected to cover her for this time.

    This is where I get totally lost with feminism ... See I totally respect her being a working mother but why should that be at the expense of other people working in that environment?

    This also happens to my dh; the lady who works for him (and we all love her to pieces) but if she has a day off work (wether it is for herself being sick or her child) he will have to make up for her work and will get home 1-2 hrs later (he already works 7.30-6.30 as a general rule).

    Does this make sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartiecat View Post
    Before I had children I worked in an office ... Our hours were 8-6 everyday BUT our manager was the only one who had a child so she worked 8.30-5.30 because she had to pick him up from childcare the other staff in the office were expected to cover her for this time.

    This is where I get totally lost with feminism ... See I totally respect her being a working mother but why should that be at the expense of other people working in that environment?

    This also happens to my dh; the lady who works for him (and we all love her to pieces) but if she has a day off work (wether it is for herself being sick or her child) he will have to make up for her work and will get home 1-2 hrs later (he already works 7.30-6.30 as a general rule).

    Does this make sense?
    Yes it makes sense, but the problem doesn't lie with feminisim - it lies with an outdated work structure that was based on the patriarchal notion that only men who weren't primary carers worked in these types of environments.

    It's not feminism or the working mother that makes it unfair for your husband - it is your husband's employer who does not put adequate measures in place to ensure that the work is spread evenly and any inequity is rectified.

    Ultimately it will affect the working mother negatively too, as she may be resented by her colleagues, be seen as not pulling her weight, will get bad performance reviews and therefore lower payrises... Feiminism doesn't support this at all.

    I'm sure there are things the employer could do to spread the work more evenly. However most employers won't - they will simply allow it all to unfold, the resentment to grow, and then it will be "well, we tried employing a working mother but that didn't end well for us". THIS is why we need feminism - not to just put women in the workplace, but to make it worthwhile for everyone for them to be there.

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