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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    domestic violence is a cycle of abuse whereby a woman has her confidence and self esteem slowly eroded, her supports taken away (alienation of family and friends) and has it beaten into her (figuratively and often literally) that she somehow deserves this treatment. It's not up to her to demand standards, it's up to him to NOT abuse her! I have been in an abusive relationship. Exercising these options you speak of are near impossible in the state of mind of an abuse victim, it's a wonder anyone gets out.
    Since most dv victims are women I don't see how this is not an issue of equality. There are men out there that believe it is acceptable to treat women with violence, abuse and disrespect. They treat them in ways they would to treat another man. They exploit women as a means to take out their own frustrations, shortcomings and anger. They control women to make themselves feel more powerful.
    The same can be said of sexual offenders. They do it because they can and because they feel entitled to harm women.
    All great points i agree with I suppose we just see the implications (equality) aspect differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    - domestic violence and sexual assault is not ok under any circumstance. However I don't believe they are necessarily examples of how women are still treated 'unequally' by others. It's about the partner being an ar$ehole and having mental problems. And to some extent the woman not having self confidence and exercising the options open to them. Women have the ability to demand standards from their partners, make wise choices about their partners, leave their partners, access refuges, take out AVO's, etc. Sexual assault is not epidemic and it's also about a small number of men being ar$eholes.
    But you seem to not fully comprehend how DV works. It's more than just the partner being a deadsh*t (which of course he is). It's about *some* men being raised to believe they would rule the household, that a woman is to do what she's told. The behaviour stems from how the man sees women and their role. It's about power and control. Not about mental health.

    It isn't just as simple as he's a jerk and she needs to grow a backbone. DV is far more insideous than that, the foundations that are laid in him are far deeper than that.

    - As for pay I believe women mostly are on an equal footing. I don't believe men and women get different pay for EXACTLY the same job. Women who have had a break from the workforce to raise kids will likely cop a drop in income as their skills may be outdated. Women are also attracted to fields that for whatever legitimate reason are lower paying (eg jobs with more flexible hours son they can be there for the kiddo's).
    Yep I agree, women tend to more attracted to those jobs bc of flexible hours. But the question here is (in a partnered relationship) why is it always the woman whose career has to take a back seat? Bc that's what's expected of us. Men continue to work, unabated, having no time off. The child is sick, the woman takes the time off work. She is often relagated to a job with less pay, that she doesn't really like.

    Why don't we see more men taking the night fill while their wives rise the corporate ladder? bc imo a 'good' woman puts her kids first.

    Finally...Why is the hubby not also taking time off to share the role of looking after sick kids so one workplace is not overly burdened? If the female doesn't demand equal help from her spouse then she can't complain about losing her job while the spouse climbs the corporate ladder.
    Bc the issues run far deeper than just a lazy husband. Again, women are told they are the primary care givers, working or not. It's become an ingrained thing thru literally a thousand years that the kids and house are a woman's job. Feminism seeks to not only free women of that, but to help men understand that in this modern age a decent husband shares the load.

    The issue really isn't that she needs to harden up with him, it's that he needs to do the right thing no? why should dealing with and leaving a DV relationship be all up to the woman? why should a lazy husband be her fault bc she won't 'make' him toe the line? Where is the man's role in all these situations? do they have no responsibility for their own behaviour? men are not children they are meant to be adults and placing all the onus on the woman is imo, victim blaming.


    - As for men being congratulated for sexual conquests and women being looked down upon. Women have the ability to show self confidence in their decisions and to flip the bird to anyone giving them a hard time. People only look down upon us if we let them. And besides, half the 'scrag' comments come from other women so it's hardly a woman is being mistreated by men issue.
    Bc women have bought into the whole virgin/wh*re dichotomy that society perpetuates. I found this piece summed up what I'm trying to say

    http://www.accessmylibrary.com/artic...y-telling.html
    Last edited by delirium; 08-08-2012 at 22:10.

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  4. #213
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    I think after reading all of this that the confusion comes from the assumption that (bar 1 or 2) those who do not want to be labelled are anti-feminism. Not wanting the label does not mean people are against it.

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  6. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilMuffin View Post
    As for voting, I hate this example everyone should have a right to vote. I don't want to vote I wish they would bring in a new law that makes it volluntary to vote, it is honestly a waste of my time because I hate politics and everything that they represent.
    Women had no way to raise issues important to women before we were given the right to vote, so how could women fight for equity when we had no means of raising issues with those leading our country? That's why it was so important.

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    I've read this whole thread with curiosity and even commented a couple of times ...

    Op asked why women don't want to identify themselves as feminists ... But it seems that those that do can't actually agree on what a feminist is ... I have seen all the dictionary meaning posted and then the terminology bandied about. I find it interesting.

    -----
    After reading this thread I think I identify as an egalitarian and I don't think I can be a feminist as well. Because I believe in equality between everyone and not just one group of people ... Does that make sense? Surely if I am a feminist I would believe in the rights of women first and everyone else second??? So if I am advocating for one group who can I be advocating for everyone ... Geez I hope that makes sense?

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    Absolutely not, you can be a feminist, pro gay equality and an environmentalist all at the same time, it doesn't mean that you feel more strongly about one or the other.

    I find it odd that you don't think you can advocate for another group if you identify as feminist? Where is that in the description.

    I think you'll find that the people who aren't agreeing on what a feminist is are people who don't identify as feminists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smartiecat View Post
    I've read this whole thread with curiosity and even commented a couple of times ...

    Op asked why women don't want to identify themselves as feminists ... But it seems that those that do can't actually agree on what a feminist is ... I have seen all the dictionary meaning posted and then the terminology bandied about. I find it interesting.

    -----
    After reading this thread I think I identify as an egalitarian and I don't think I can be a feminist as well. Because I believe in equality between everyone and not just one group of people ... Does that make sense? Surely if I am a feminist I would believe in the rights of women first and everyone else second??? So if I am advocating for one group who can I be advocating for everyone ... Geez I hope that makes sense?

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  10. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartiecat View Post
    After reading this thread I think I identify as an egalitarian and I don't think I can be a feminist as well. Because I believe in equality between everyone and not just one group of people ... Does that make sense? Surely if I am a feminist I would believe in the rights of women first and everyone else second???
    I think one of the biggest factors that is clouding the true meaning of feminism is the use of yet word equality. What we all really should be aiming for is equity for the sexes. Check out this great article on the diffence - http://laradavid.blogspot.com.au/200...-equality.html

    Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions.. for safety on the streets… for child care, for social welfare… for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law. If someone says ‘Oh, I’m not a feminist,’ I ask ‘Why? What’s your problem?’
    — Dale Spender 1985



    "Fair is not everybody getting the same, it's everybody getting what they need"

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  12. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by saxonrose View Post
    I think one of the biggest factors that is clouding the true meaning of feminism is the use of yet word equality. What we all really should be aiming for is equity for the sexes. Check out this great article on the diffence - http://laradavid.blogspot.com.au/200...-equality.html

    Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions.. for safety on the streets… for child care, for social welfare… for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law. If someone says ‘Oh, I’m not a feminist,’ I ask ‘Why? What’s your problem?’
    — Dale Spender 1985



    "Fair is not everybody getting the same, it's everybody getting what they need"
    Great article thanks ... More confused than ever now and think I shall bow out of this thread ... I'm sick of being told I am wrong when I just don't think I am expressing myself clearly.

    Love the analogy in the article tho

  13. #219
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    missybubble is offline I'm a strange one, but I'm good at it :)
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    I've only read the first few pages of the thread but what ToughLove posted - is that woman for real?! Imagine if a man wrote that sort of thing about a woman, there'd be outrage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartiecat View Post
    I've read this whole thread with curiosity and even commented a couple of times ...

    Op asked why women don't want to identify themselves as feminists ... But it seems that those that do can't actually agree on what a feminist is ... I have seen all the dictionary meaning posted and then the terminology bandied about. I find it interesting.

    -----
    After reading this thread I think I identify as an egalitarian and I don't think I can be a feminist as well. Because I believe in equality between everyone and not just one group of people ... Does that make sense? Surely if I am a feminist I would believe in the rights of women first and everyone else second??? So if I am advocating for one group who can I be advocating for everyone ... Geez I hope that makes sense?
    Feminism is not about women's rights above others- its about women and men having equal rights. As a pp said, feminism is part of being egalitarian.
    I think those identifying as feminists know exactly what it means and why it's needed, seems the confusion stems from some of those who dislike the label or disagree with the definition and still prefer to think of feminists as extremists. JMO.

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