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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    If women spent half as much time just joining in with society instead of chattering about how hard done by women are, language gender imbalance etc... Then there wouldn't be a 'need' for a feminism
    Movement.
    So, feminism was only ever needed because women created problems for themselves...?

    And does that line of thinking apply to other groups too? E.g., gays just need to join in with society and then there would be no need for gay rights?

    Who are these women not joining in with society? And who are they 'chattering' to, in that case?

    And if the law says that (for example) women can't vote, then do all women have to complain about it individually and 'harden up', or would that be seen as chattering?

    I'm sure this isn't what you mean, but it kind of sounds like you're saying that it's only possible for people to be marginalised if they let it happen, and that they can stop it really easily and quickly, and once things are sort of okay then they don't need to complain about it any more.

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  3. #202
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  5. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl X View Post
    So, feminism was only ever needed because women created problems for themselves...?

    And does that line of thinking apply to other groups too? E.g., gays just need to join in with society and then there would be no need for gay rights?

    Who are these women not joining in with society? And who are they 'chattering' to, in that case?

    And if the law says that (for example) women can't vote, then do all women have to complain about it individually and 'harden up', or would that be seen as chattering?

    I'm sure this isn't what you mean, but it kind of sounds like you're saying that it's only possible for people to be marginalised if they let it happen, and that they can stop it really easily and quickly, and once things are sort of okay then they don't need to complain about it any more.
    Yeah I read that the same why- like it's Woman's fault that women have been marginalised and that's just victim blaming mentality. Is that what you meant VicPark or something else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondEyes View Post
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    Rawr!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl X View Post
    So, feminism was only ever needed because women created problems for themselves...?

    And does that line of thinking apply to other groups too? E.g., gays just need to join in with society and then there would be no need for gay rights?

    Who are these women not joining in with society? And who are they 'chattering' to, in that case?

    And if the law says that (for example) women can't vote, then do all women have to complain about it individually and 'harden up', or would that be seen as chattering?

    I'm sure this isn't what you mean, but it kind of sounds like you're saying that it's only possible for people to be marginalised if they let it happen, and that they can stop it really easily and quickly, and once things are sort of okay then they don't need to complain about it any more.
    You're sort of half right. I think that in some countries where women really are doing it rough (eg cant get a drivers license or leave the house without the husbands permission) strong advocacy is still needed.

    However in many countries (such as Australia) there is robust legal and social frameworks that for the most part give women an opportunity to be on an even playing surface with men. If someone is denied equality (eg sacked because preggers, stuck in a relationship with a man who doesn't help with the housework) there are options out there to even the playing field if they wish to do so. If a woman chooses to not leave the lazy husband or to not complain about being unfairly sacked then that's her choice, but she should then give up the right to play the 'discrimination' or 'woe me' card. The system was there to support her, but she chose to not level the playing field.

    I suppose what I'm saying is we've got it good in Australia and the need for a feminist movement is questionable. We have nothing much to complain about so when we whinge and whine, see ourselves as a special group needing special treatment, some just think we're being a little precious and this damages the cause.

    I don't think it's the same for gay and lesbians as there arent (yet) the same social and legal protections in place (they can't even marry each other!). So a stronger advocacy is needed there.

    I hope that makes sense, happy to clarify if needed.

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    The moment a feminist movement is removed, you'll see us revert straight back to the old days.

    Women take out AVOs against violent partners all the time and it does nothing, until women stop dying at the hands of violent partners/ex partners, then there is still a need for feminism and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

    75% of women in the same jobs as their male counterparts get less pay. Sorry - but in this day and age and in this country that is just completely unacceptable.

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  11. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    You're sort of half right. I think that in some countries where women really are doing it rough (eg cant get a drivers license or leave the house without the husbands permission) strong advocacy is still needed.

    However in many countries (such as Australia) there is robust legal and social frameworks that for the most part give women an opportunity to be on an even playing surface with men. If someone is denied equality (eg sacked because preggers, stuck in a relationship with a man who doesn't help with the housework) there are options out there to even the playing field if they wish to do so. If a woman chooses to not leave the lazy husband or to not complain about being unfairly sacked then that's her choice, but she should then give up the right to play the 'discrimination' or 'woe me' card. The system was there to support her, but she chose to not level the playing field.

    I suppose what I'm saying is we've got it good in Australia and the need for a feminist movement is questionable. We have nothing much to complain about so when we whinge and whine, see ourselves as a special group needing special treatment, some just think we're being a little precious and this damages the cause.

    I don't think it's the same for gay and lesbians as there arent (yet) the same social and legal protections in place (they can't even marry each other!). So a stronger advocacy is needed there.

    I hope that makes sense, happy to clarify if needed.
    I think Australia has it better than many other parts of the world, yes, but to say that women have an even playing field with men is a little naive. There are many industries or fields where men outnumber women significantly in positions of power. I have seen women passed up for promotions despite being the better candidate purely because of the "boys club" mentality that is still very much a part of Australian workplace culture. And women being paid less than their male counterparts for no good reason other than that they are women.
    Sacking for pregnancy is still very common. Many people who have found themselves in this position can't afford the prohibitive legal costs to sue and don't want the stress on top of the stress of pregnancy and unemployment.
    It's not as black and white as you've painted it.
    I don't think Australian feminists are "whining" or wanting special treatment at all- the whole point of feminism is equality. I think it's great to see women supporting other women and advocating for rights of women all over the world.

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  13. #208
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    It's true, women in Aust have it better than in Syria or South Korea.... why? bc women before us have fought for our rights, the rights many of us take for granted now.

    We are not even with men. 95% of reported DV has a female victim. Something like 3/4 of all sexual assaults and rape are women. We are paid less. Many women are sacked, demoted and given reduced hours for calling in sick with kids while their partners or ex's continue to work their way up the ladder. Just a few days ago a hubber said they were told when they return from PPL they will effectively be demoted, and it's not illegal as long has the workplace offers them a position. Men are commended for sexual conquests, women are castigated. Even in oz the poorest demographic are single mums. I could go on and on.

    I don't have an issue with those that don't wish to identify with the label of feminist. But if we are going to have a discussion about whether feminism is still relevant in today's society, lets keep to the facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    It's true, women in Aust have it better than in Syria or South Korea.... why? bc women before us have fought for our rights, the rights many of us take for granted now.

    We are not even with men. 95% of reported DV has a female victim. Something like 3/4 of all sexual assaults and rape are women. We are paid less. Many women are sacked, demoted and given reduced hours for calling in sick with kids while their partners or ex's continue to work their way up the ladder. Just a few days ago a hubber said they were told when they return from PPL they will effectively be demoted, and it's not illegal as long has the workplace offers them a position. Men are commended for sexual conquests, women are castigated. Even in oz the poorest demographic are single mums. I could go on and on.

    I don't have an issue with those that don't wish to identify with the label of feminist. But if we are going to have a discussion about whether feminism is still relevant in today's society, lets keep to the facts.
    - I agree the activists of the past have helped Australia to become the female friendly place it is now.

    - I don't think the examples provide are absolute proof of the need for a strong feminist movement. They can be interpreted various ways and sure if someone looks at them through a pair of glasses tainted with the paint of their cause ....then sure, things could be spun in a way which justifies their cause.

    - domestic violence and sexual assault is not ok under any circumstance. However I don't believe they are necessarily examples of how women are still treated 'unequally' by others. It's about the partner being an ar$ehole and having mental problems. And to some extent the woman not having self confidence and exercising the options open to them. Women have the ability to demand standards from their partners, make wise choices about their partners, leave their partners, access refuges, take out AVO's, etc. Sexual assault is not epidemic and it's also about a small number of men being ar$eholes.

    - As for pay I believe women mostly are on an equal footing. I don't believe men and women get different pay for EXACTLY the same job. Women who have had a break from the workforce to raise kids will likely cop a drop in income as their skills may be outdated. Women are also attracted to fields that for whatever legitimate reason are lower paying (eg jobs with more flexible hours son they can be there for the kiddo's).

    - regarding women being sacked/demoted etc for always calling in with sick kids while the partner/ex climbs the corporate ladder then a few points come to mind. First of all, this is not epidemic. Secondly for this to happen they would have had to breech their conditions of employment. I know I'm only allowed a certain number of sick leave/personal leave days before I have to take leave without pay. I'm not complaining as the leave amount is fair and well the employer needs to run a business and if an employee needs to continuously be away for an excessive period then perhaps it's best they don't have the job. Finally...Why is the hubby not also taking time off to share the role of looking after sick kids so one workplace is not overly burdened? If the female doesn't demand equal help from her spouse then she can't complain about losing her job while the spouse climbs the corporate ladder.

    - regarding the hubber being demoted after returning from leave. The employer has to offer you a position of equal standing. A demotion would be grounds for a dismissal. I think it's unfair to expect employers to hold exactly the same job for someone who goes on leave for an extended period. The work environment changes, customers change, restructures, replacement hassles etc... It's not about women being treated unequally it's about balancing the right of women to return to work with the very real need for employers to run a busines profitably.

    - As for men being congratulated for sexual conquests and women being looked down upon. Women have the ability to show self confidence in their decisions and to flip the bird to anyone giving them a hard time. People only look down upon us if we let them. And besides, half the 'scrag' comments come from other women so it's hardly a woman is being mistreated by men issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post

    - domestic violence and sexual assault is not ok under any circumstance. However I don't believe they are necessarily examples of how women are still treated 'unequally' by others. It's about the partner being an ar$ehole and having mental problems. And to some extent the woman not having self confidence and exercising the options open to them. Women have the ability to demand standards from their partners, make wise choices about their partners, leave their partners, access refuges, take out AVO's, etc. Sexual assault is not epidemic and it's also about a small number of men being ar$eholes.
    .
    domestic violence is a cycle of abuse whereby a woman has her confidence and self esteem slowly eroded, her supports taken away (alienation of family and friends) and has it beaten into her (figuratively and often literally) that she somehow deserves this treatment. It's not up to her to demand standards, it's up to him to NOT abuse her! I have been in an abusive relationship. Exercising these options you speak of are near impossible in the state of mind of an abuse victim, it's a wonder anyone gets out.
    Since most dv victims are women I don't see how this is not an issue of equality. There are men out there that believe it is acceptable to treat women with violence, abuse and disrespect. They treat them in ways they would to treat another man. They exploit women as a means to take out their own frustrations, shortcomings and anger. They control women to make themselves feel more powerful.
    The same can be said of sexual offenders. They do it because they can and because they feel entitled to harm women.

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