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  1. #151
    Rutabaga's Avatar
    Rutabaga is offline Getting it together, one day at a time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eko View Post
    "Egalitarianism is a trend of thought that favors equality among living entities. Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or social status." This is me.

    "Feminism
    is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women." This is not me.

    The reason that I make the distinction is that Feminism is SOLELY about equality for women. Whilst it's a noble cause that is not the only thing I care about.
    Someone can tell me I'm a feminist all they like. I'm not. It might be part of my ethos but that title certainly doesn't define my entire moral compass. My focus isn't that narrow.

    I agree that I want equality for women. Just as I want equality for everyone, regardless of gender, age, sexual orientation or any other variable you want to throw in there. Women don't take precedence just because they've been oppressed in the past (and still are at times, I'm not naive). Many people have been oppressed for many reasons. Focusing on one group as more deserving of equality activism seems like saying that they're more deserving of equal rights than anyone else that's been oppressed.

    Everyone is deserving of those rights, not just the group with the loudest voices or the most backing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Girl X View Post
    We do, but feminism is just one part of that.

    We need racial equality, which is another part.

    And same sex couple rights.

    To say we don't need feminism is to say we don't need those things either.

    Equality for all is absolutely what we need, but that is then broken down into smaller parts.
    These two posts sum up the muddle of what I want to express, but couldn't find the words for. Thank you. I think feminism is still very much needed, but as society develops we need to expand our goals for equality.

    Eta - and thanks to bonkers for explaining how to multi post!
    Last edited by Rutabaga; 07-08-2012 at 20:47.

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  3. #152
    headoverfeet's Avatar
    headoverfeet is offline The truth will set you free, but first it will **** you off. -Gloria Steinem
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Is feminism needed or just a set of balls to demand the men step up?
    This kind of statement is why we need feminism.

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  5. #153
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    This is such an emotive topic to me, I don't have the time or energy to properly reply.
    But want to say thanks to the women who have, and to Atropos for posting this question - it's something I've often thought about (and wanted to ask Hubbers "How could you be opposed to this??!") but again, haven't had the mental energy to do it. I'm thankful other women (or men, or feminists of any gender!) are willing to ask questions, educate, and fight for it.

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  7. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thermolicious View Post
    This kind of statement is why we need feminism.
    Tell me what you thought I meant from the statement?

    Better still I'll just explain it:
    - If a woman wants to change her life she's got to: find the strength within to overcome hardship, take responsibility for creating the life she wants, respect herself enough to demand nothing short of the best.
    - I don't like fancy trendy names being given to things which are commonsense. Can't we just be human beings taking personal responsibility and making sure we are being treated fairly? (whether it be female, indigenous, migrant, same sex rights etc). Why do we have to be human beings with a vagina advocating a cause?
    - Women who see themselves as fitting into a special category are setting themselves up to be treated unequally
    Last edited by VicPark; 08-08-2012 at 06:53.

  8. #155
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    You see "balls" as "strength" despite how inherently strong women are. "We have no balls" is an insult, despite the fact we birth children! That's the ish with your statement. It's insulting.

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  10. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToBe View Post
    You see "balls" as "strength" despite how inherently strong women are. "We have no balls" is an insult, despite the fact we birth children! That's the ish with your statement. It's insulting.
    You're reading what you want to regardless of what was intended.

    It was a play on words... A bit if sarcasm that Balls = strength... And a bit of Inferring that women need to stop thinking of themselves as being different.

  11. #157
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    Different to what?

    Hang on a tic... so you actually believe all women are treated equally to men?

    And it's all in our silly little feminist minds? We make it up for fun?

    Is that what you're getting at? Because if so, maybe you should read over some sexual abuse statistics... domestic abuse statistics... employment statistics...

    ETA: Just re read your post... you actually seem to be saying it is the woman's fault when she is raped/beaten/discriminated against (these are hate crimes which feminism fights against)? It is the woman setting herself up for believing she is different? Gosh.
    Last edited by BornToBe; 08-08-2012 at 07:43. Reason: ETA, reread VicPark's post

  12. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToBe View Post
    Different to what?

    Hang on a tic... so you actually believe all women are treated equally to men?

    And it's all in our silly little feminist minds? We make it up for fun?

    Is that what you're getting at? Because if so, maybe you should read over some sexual abuse statistics... domestic abuse statistics... employment statistics...

    ETA: Just re read your post... you actually seem to be saying it is the woman's fault when she is raped/beaten/discriminated against (these are hate crimes which feminism fights against)? It is the woman setting herself up for believing she is different? Gosh.
    Wow. You're pulling some interpretations from your Heineken on this one.

    I don't believe women are always treated equally. Then again sometimes they are. Instead if playing the 'woe female' card how about women just deal with each injustice as it arises: see it as an injustice against humanity. If we keep crapping on about 'female this, feminism that' (instead of just focusing on the issue at hand) then we only alienate ourselves further in society.

    I don't know where the rant on sexual assault came from so I'm going to ignore it other than to say sexual assault is wrong whether it be committed against woman, man, child or animal.

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    Yet it is committed overwhelmingly upon women; not men, children or animals. Making it a feminist issue.

    Nevermind VicPark. Fish can't see water. It's too nice a morning to get into an endless debate.

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  15. #160
    Eko's Avatar
    Eko is offline Acrobatic Dominatrix.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToBe View Post
    You see "balls" as "strength" despite how inherently strong women are. "We have no balls" is an insult, despite the fact we birth children! That's the ish with your statement. It's insulting.
    It doesn't mean she was saying that women aren't as strong as men because she used the word 'balls'. Her whole post was about men needing to stand up for women's rights as well.
    If she was talking about women, and said "Women need to have the ovaries" would you have been offended on behalf of men, because that implies that men aren't as strong as women as they lack ovaries?

    This is why I find Feminism as a movement a hard pill to swallow sometimes. Often, the idea is that we call for equality for women, and yet we instantly go the reverse when it's the other gender being oppressed.
    The reaction is "Oh, don't be silly. We HAVE to be stronger than men, we give birth!". Or "Men aren't better than us because they're able to lift heavier things". That's even my ingrained reaction if I don't stop to think first, and it's WRONG.
    Oh, but we've been oppressed for so long by them, we should be allowed to get a few licks back in return.
    It doesn't make us stronger or better. That makes us different. If we say that we should be allowed to say that we're physically stronger because we give birth, we're guilty of exactly the same thing as they are.
    It might be a physiological fact that we go through more pain than most men experience in a lifetime during childbirth, but that doesn't make us 'stronger people'.
    It's just a case of the prisoner becoming the executioner if we do that.

    Sorry for the essay, I guess I'm just having the discussion with myself and trying to question my own thoughts out loud. I don't like to say that Feminism is bad by any means. I just find aspects of it difficult to reconcile in my own head when the behaviour of many of it's adherents (certainly not all) contradict the very essence of what they want to achieve. Which is of course gender equality.
    The discussion that's come about here is actually really good for me because it has made me question my preconceptions.
    I still prefer to call myself Egalitarian, but I guess I have a better concept of Feminism now just because other people have been adding to the conversation respectfully and rather than getting fired up because someone's insulted my intelligence I've actually had the opportunity to follow thought processes and see someone else's point of view that I may not have been able to had it turned into a women's lib free for all *chuckle*.

    ****************
    I also wanted to add that for the most part, this thread has stayed relatively respectful and calm and it's an absolute PLEASURE to have a discussion like this on BH not dissolve into name calling and cat fights!

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