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  1. #91
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    The resolution of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe is aimed at the issue of religious circumcision. Non-religious, non-medical circumcision of minors is not an issue, since it does not occur and if it did would almost certainly not survive legal challenge in most European jurisdictions.

    In response to the PACE resolution, the Israeli Knesset launched an international campaign for a new resolution to affirm the "right" to religious circumcision. It has so far gathered 102 supporters among voting members (not a majority). Resolutions cannot be rescinded, by the way, but they are not binding on member states either.

    The PACE Committee on Social Affairs, Health and Sustainable Development, which sponsored the original resolution, will be meeting to discuss the issue further on January 28.

    Whatever the outcome in Europe, it has only an indirect bearing on routine circumcision in Australia, which is the point at issue here and, as you point out, is already banned in Australian public hospitals.

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    This thread is incredibly old and I am curious what @addie7758 ended up choosing.

    I'm in a similar position as my DH had to have a medical circumcision when he was around 8 and recalls it being very painful. Despite being quite anti-circ, I surprised myself by deferring the matter to him when we found out we're having a boy. I'm sure further discussion would've been had if he had said he wanted it done but luckily he didn't. He said that he sees no reason to have our little boy circumcised for the "just in case" scenario.

    As for where the conversation is at now, I'm curious @JohnC whether you think that if it's ruled that circumcision is allowed for religious reasons in Europe that people who are determined to get it done will try and fake their way through. I believe in the religious freedoms of others but it feels slightly hypocritical that someone can have it done for "religious reasons" but not because that is simply the choice they want to make as a parent.

    As you can see from answers in this thread, whether or not it's misplaced, there are people who have fully researched it for their children and come to the opposite conclusion that we have. I can't imagine, as parent, being forced to circumcise my baby boy and outlawing it is essentially forcing a pro-circ person into that scenario so I can see why you don't think it should be made illegal here in Australia. It's great that it's not routine here, though. I would hate to live in America where it's par for the course.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin Queen View Post
    I believe in the religious freedoms of others but it feels slightly hypocritical that someone can have it done for "religious reasons" but not because that is simply the choice they want to make as a parent.
    Richard Dawkins refers to this as the religious 'free ride' - i.e., in most societies it's considered wrong to question decisions made on religious grounds, but quite appropriate to question rational decisions.

  4. #94
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    I was just about to refer to Dawkins in response to Goblin Queen but have been beaten to it. We all get away with stuff that is normally abhorrent or normally out of our reach in the name of religion. Using culture as an excuse tends to get you a free ride too.

    Unlike some, I am intolerant of religious beliefs where they impinge on the rights and wellbeing of the child.

    So is male circumcision illegal in Europe caviar?
    Yes. They're an enlightened lot over there

    How do they distinguish between the fact that sometimes male circumcision has to be performed for medical reasons?
    Commonsense would dictate that a doctor would examine the child and deem the procedure necessary for medical reasons. This can and does happen in Australia too - for both girls and boys.

    A big difference between male and female circumcision as I know of many cases where circumcision was a medical necessity for a male, but never have I heard of a case where male circumcision has been medically required
    Not sure what you're trying to assert with that paragraph. The majority of male circumcisions in this country is still performed for non medical reasons with a smaller number still for medical ones. The evidence for this is widely available. Thankfully, societal attitudes have changed markedly since the 50s and that number has since plummeted. Unfortunately, archaic attitudes still persist wherein parents feel it's absolutely fine just to take a knife to a newborn's penis.

    The difference between male and female circumcision, on the face of it, is exactly the same - it serves to mutilate the body and to do so for invalid reasons. In terms of having the procedure medically done, again, the procedure has the same aims - to remove a part of the genitals. The only difference in most cases between the two is that one procedure does not tend to adversely affect the physical operation of the genitals whereas the other one does.

    Cases where circumcision has been performed on male children include medical conditions such as phimosis, paraphimosis and balanitis. Cases where female circumcision has been performed for medical reasons include clitoral enlargement and labia enlargement/deformities.

    In my experience, when I have encountered parents who have made the decision to have their son circumcised, that decision is quickly reversed when the full facts are made available to them. While I do not doubt their sincerity, I do doubt the brevity and impartiality of the research supposedly carried out and the wider belief out there that in depth research is carried out before such a decision is made.

    Female circumcision is now routinely referred to as Female Genital Mutilation. I don't see why we cannot refer to male circumcision as Male Genital Mutilation.

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    Goblin Queen, the fact "religious freedom" is held to be an argument of no account in the case of FGM (for Muslims) but is somehow central to the issue of male circumcision is powerful testimony to the political potency of the international Jewish lobby on this issue. It is a sad layering of double standards.
    Last edited by JohnC; 07-01-2014 at 02:24.

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  8. #96
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    and all that the Lorax left here in this mess was a small pile of rocks with the one word...UNLESS
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    An interesting fact you may not know about me, is that my first ever post on bubhub was in this area. My step son was being circumcised (his mother had booked him in without his father's consent and we (My DH and I) were mortified.

    The reason given was that he wanted to look like his peers. Given that he was born in 1995 I found this hard to believe. There was no discussion that could be entered into.

    What I find now to be amazing (as my DSS was circumcised in a public hospital) is that apparently circumcision is not allowed in public hospitals in WA. We were more than mortified. For many reasons. 1). I thought the majority of boys born in this era were not circumcised. 2). No psychic evaluation was entered into as to whether there should be counselling for my (then) 10 year old DSS. 3) His father did not have to be consulted and I'd always thought that the father should have more of an idea regarding this area than the mother.

    Due to the age of the child, we didn't start any legal processes (and also our finances at the time), also my DH was only informed when my DSS was booked for the procedure 2 weeks from time of notification so there wasn't time to do much at all without causing major trauma psychologically all round.

    Anyway, end of the story, my DSS was circumcised at aged 10 without his father's consent (even though he was in his life) and once the procedure was performed, there was no recourse. I find this interesting now as after reading some of the cases I find that apparently other parents have had charges laid against them following circumcising their children without the other parent's consent

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    That is absolutely disgusting, @pegasus! I can only imagine what sort of woman would do that. Do you know if your DSS had asked her to do it? How on Earth does that happen randomly at 10 years old? More importantly without the prior knowledge or consent of the father who is still involved in his life? I'm completely gobsmacked that anybody would do something so...I don't have a polite way of phrasing it so I'll refrain but I'm sure you get the point!

    I think that's why when we found out we were having a boy, I asked my DH what his thoughts and opinion were. Even though I had done research on circumcision and had in the past proudly pronounced that if I ever had a son, the father would have no say because there was no way I would circumcise him, when the time came I wanted him to have a say. If DH had said he wanted our boy circumcised, I would've gone about showing him research, etc. and DH is a logical man so I think he would've come to the same conclusion but luckily it didn't come to that anyway. I just didn't want him to resent me for not giving him a say in the matter at all since it is his son too.

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