View Poll Results: Who is accountable?

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  • The parents and the child/youth perpetrator are legally accountable

    4 8.70%
  • The parents are accountable, but legally, the child/youth perpetrator should suffer all the consequences

    6 13.04%
  • The child/youth perpetrator is completely accountable for their actions

    34 73.91%
  • Other

    2 4.35%
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  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilahh View Post
    I probably missed a major point. I don't want to hold parents accountable to lynch them. I want to know how to prevent this. I think there should be mandatory parenting programs for every parent to identify their own child's strengths and weaknesses and extra support for parents with challenging children. I think there should be a fundamental shift in societal perception that parenting a child is a right: its a responsibility. We don't own our children. We are raising the next generation, and we have a societal responsibility to raise functioning, healthy adults to the best of our ability. Where that ability is lacking, it should be identified, early, and improved. I also believe that broader social influences that increase the risk of violence in children, such as poverty, poor education, mental health, need more attention.
    I agree, and what you are saying is in line with this story about some research in today's sydney morning herald:

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/it-ma...720-22fgt.html

    But I think your more complex point in the post I quoted is a far cry from your original argument, which appeared to be violent young adult = parental responsibility (in addition to offender responsibility), despite not knowing anything about the case.

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  3. #172
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    I was just watching the news and that 24 year old man who killed all those innocent people in the batman movie was apparently an honor student with a normal family life and no prior convictions, he was studying physcology at university , I just think sometimes as pp have said sometimes good kids with great parents go bad or in this guys case he is now a mass murderer

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  5. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    That may all be true, but you can't honestly say that an 18 year old doesn't know that punching people in the head is wrong.

    I can see that some people are bad parents, some people really shouldn't be parents. I get that, and in cases of neglect and abuse then yeah, maybe the parents should be punished as well. But, I still maintain that sometimes you can be a great parent and still have kids that go off the rails.

    knowing something is wrong...and having the impulse control not to do it...2 different things.

    I did loads of stuff i knew was wrong...i used to shoplift (a lot) when i was about 10...knew it was wrong...did it anyway.

    Used lots of recreational drugs...knew it was wrong...but thought it was fun... so i did it.

    I took some stupid risks while travelling...had loads of fun...but I was lucky not to end up in strife.

    I dabbled in all sorts of things that i knew were wrong and illegal...my thought process did not go much further than "it'll be ok...i won't get caught/i won't get hurt"

    Now, as a nearly 40 year old..i would not do any of those things. And, all my "risk taking and illegal behaviour" stopped at about age 25/26. It was gradual...but i grew up.

    Now, not everyone is me...but i am a pretty good example.

    I am not an advocate for Punishing the parent...but holding them also accountable. Child support if needed, compensation for damages...esp if their child going off the rails and they have not sought help! It is about balance and I don't think our current system is balanced.

  6. #174
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    There is a difference between dabbling in things and killing someone. Treating this man like he is some child that had no impulse control is ludicrous - 14 maybe. But 18. Sorry, he knows what he is doing is wrong at that age.


    Quote Originally Posted by smileygirl View Post
    knowing something is wrong...and having the impulse control not to do it...2 different things.

    I did loads of stuff i knew was wrong...i used to shoplift (a lot) when i was about 10...knew it was wrong...did it anyway.

    Used lots of recreational drugs...knew it was wrong...but thought it was fun... so i did it.

    I took some stupid risks while travelling...had loads of fun...but I was lucky not to end up in strife.

    I dabbled in all sorts of things that i knew were wrong and illegal...my thought process did not go much further than "it'll be ok...i won't get caught/i won't get hurt"

    Now, as a nearly 40 year old..i would not do any of those things. And, all my "risk taking and illegal behaviour" stopped at about age 25/26. It was gradual...but i grew up.

    Now, not everyone is me...but i am a pretty good example.

    I am not an advocate for Punishing the parent...but holding them also accountable. Child support if needed, compensation for damages...esp if their child going off the rails and they have not sought help! It is about balance and I don't think our current system is balanced.

  7. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by smileygirl View Post
    but that is you, you don't punch people...fine

    I am talking in your EVERYDAY life...between the ages given, you WILL have grown, matured, learned from experience and physical development how to make better decisions and be able to see things from a wider range of perspectives...have better impulse control etc etc etc

    I would never punch people in the head either...it's not something that comes onto my radar...but people are different. Does not change the point that a 10 year old does not have the same ability to reason as an 18 year old...and an 18 year old have the same as a 28 year old.

    I don't care if you have kids/lived out of home blah blah blah blah...as YOU mature, you grow, your brain completes it's development and you become better able to utilise your mind and experience to make better decisions.
    Yep. I've definitely grown. I know that I should pay my bills. I know that making sure that I have enough money for groceries is more important than buying a case of beer. I know that I'm responsible for my actions, and have been from about 5 years of age.

    But from the age of about 5 IN MY EVERY DAY LIFE, I knew that hitting someone in the head was a bad thing. I didn't do it. And would never do it, unless I had no other choices that could get me out of danger.

    That hasn't changed as I've matured, as I've grown, as my brain completed it's development and I've been able to utilise my mind and experience to make decisions.

    I've come to that conclusion in my every day life even through combat training where the purpose has been to bring me down as a person. To negate my experiences and to almost DEhumanise me. I've learnt that the only thing that humanises us as such is for us to act like humans. To empathise.
    If you make choices to do otherwise, that's your choice. Ergo, you choose to ignore what society says are decent and reasonable actions. You choose to act like an animal. So you choose your fate which is to be locked up out of sight and away from damaging the community that choose to treat each other with respect.

    My parents taught me the majority of these lessons, but more came from society and simply living within it. As I said before, if he lived under a rock then it's understandable. But otherwise, he knew what he was doing. As someone that should be old enough to be responsible the blame can't be anywhere but squarely on his own shoulders.

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  9. #176
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    This is a great talk - not about murder, nor about the case in the OP...but it talk about 'growing up' and not simply 'being an adult' , and also the relationship between person/parent/society - as a mother of three children who in ten years time will be 17 and 15 [x2]... I found it very interesting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzuUl...&feature=share

  10. #177
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    No. I believe society, parents and the Government are to blame this stupid idea that alcohol is so important and fun. That they cannot go out and enjoy themselves without it. People make stupid mistakes when drinking yet as a society we are still drawn to drink.

    I recently was part of a fitness group full of adults that moaned because the could not drink. That is was so hard because alcohol was banned. Their ADULT friends made fun of them, called them soft and blah blah and it affected their feelings so how does a young adult deal with those pressures?

    Most raise their kids with this idea that happy, sad, fun, angry you drink to help. IT is something we see everywhere.

    I do not blame the parents as my kids are raised that alcohol is stupid yet her friends parents expose their kids to it and mine(their kids imitate parents). My kids bring home information about that rubbish(how to hold wine glass and the behvaiour that comes with intoxication or being tipsy).

    I think we need to change the way we use alcohol as we all know our judgement is impaired but they all still use it. It is about choices but you cannot blame the parents as the whole world sees what they are doing as acceptable until they make the mistakes that come(sometimes) with drinking and partying.

    ETA....I think murder is too much, he made a terrible mistake but he did not go out with the intention to kill him. Yes one punch can kill but I still feel murder is too much. He does need punishment but I do feel murder is too much.
    Last edited by fairyflossfairy; 21-07-2012 at 20:05.

  11. #178
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    He punched 4 people that night, not just one random fight, one random punch.

    Anyhow- most people go out drinking at some stage in their lives and still don't kill people.

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  13. #179
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    Beebs....everyone is different, your idea is too black and white. I could drink a lot and seem "normal" where when others tried to drink that amount would be on verge of blood poisoning.

    We are all different, you cannot make it so simple.

    People speed everyday and do not kill people.
    People speed once and kill themselves or others.

    People go skydiving and live to do it again
    People skydive and die.

    You cannot make it so simple, it seems to me he was a bit screwed up that night.
    Last edited by fairyflossfairy; 21-07-2012 at 20:46.

  14. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by fairyflossfairy View Post
    Beebs....everyone is different, your idea is too black and white. I could drink a lot and seem "normal" where when others tried to drink that amount would be on verge of blood poisoning.

    We are all different, you cannot make it so simple.

    People speed everyday and do not kill people.
    People speed once and kill themselves or others.

    People go skydiving and live to do it again
    People skydive and die.

    You cannot make it so simple, it seems to me he was a bit screwed up that night.
    Perhaps Beebs was getting at that it can't be alcohol alone that cause this fellow to behave this way. It could have been alcohol and mental illness, alcohol and drugs, or my bet alcohol and just being a dip$hit of society.


 

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