View Poll Results: Who is accountable?

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  • The parents and the child/youth perpetrator are legally accountable

    4 8.70%
  • The parents are accountable, but legally, the child/youth perpetrator should suffer all the consequences

    6 13.04%
  • The child/youth perpetrator is completely accountable for their actions

    34 73.91%
  • Other

    2 4.35%
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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilahh View Post
    Now I know you are trolling.



    Good one.

    In any case, unless you are the individual's psychologist, and even then you don't always find out, you will never really know the extent of what a parent does or doesn't do to their child. Parents of serial killers have a strong motive to not disclose terrible parenting choices they may or may not have made.

    I still firmly believe anti-social personality traits are created. The mentioning of the Bulger case is another relevant one. They sodomized poor little James: no 10 or 12 year old knows how to do that without being taught. Extreme sexual and physical violence are taught to children, they are not innate.
    She's not trolling and in fact you just proved her point. He still wasn't the product of his parents failures.. maybe the sexual assault had something to do with it but that wasn't his parents fault.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renesme View Post
    She's not trolling and in fact you just proved her point. He still wasn't the product of his parents failures.. maybe the sexual assault had something to do with it but that wasn't his parents fault.
    Well u could argue that his parents didn't do enough to protect him from the abuse... ??

    Each circumstance is different, so is each person. This is an impossible argument to 'win'.

    Both nature and nurture play a role in an individual's personality, u can't pinpoint one thing that made someone behave the way they did.

    This person is old enough to know its wrong, even young kids would tell you that killin someone will send u to jail, so no, u can't just blame the parents. U don't know this family's circumstances...

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  4. #133
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    I'm not trolling at all. I just disagree with you.

    I agree with you about the bulger case - there was definite abuse there. Kids don't act out in that way at that age, I get that.

    But I also get that there are variables in every aspect of life, you are just so set in your view. It is all one way, not variables. I don't get it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lilahh View Post
    Now I know you are trolling.



    Good one.

    In any case, unless you are the individual's psychologist, and even then you don't always find out, you will never really know the extent of what a parent does or doesn't do to their child. Parents of serial killers have a strong motive to not disclose terrible parenting choices they may or may not have made.

    I still firmly believe anti-social personality traits are created. The mentioning of the Bulger case is another relevant one. They sodomized poor little James: no 10 or 12 year old knows how to do that without being taught. Extreme sexual and physical violence are taught to children, they are not innate.

  5. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renesme View Post
    She's not trolling and in fact you just proved her point. He still wasn't the product of his parents failures.. maybe the sexual assault had something to do with it but that wasn't his parents fault.

    Did you read what I wrote? His parents claimed each grossly neglected their duty of care and were cruel. They also abandoned Jeffrey with no food or money, severely neglecting him.

    They failed him!!! And he became a serial killer!!!

    Of course I believe in variables, extreme physical and sexual violence in children occurs through lots of factors. It just never occurs without some parental neglect or abuse. It's a learned behaviour. It's not innate. Children are not naturally extremely violent or sexual. It's learned through observation and exposure. And if the parents themselves don't teach it to children, they allow them to associate with peers and extended family members who do: and they do nothing to counter that learning.
    Last edited by Lilahh; 20-07-2012 at 20:43.

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  7. #135
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    Supposing one subscribed to your way of thinking, where would you stop, would you blame the parents parents for raising them so badly that they raised their kids badly? Are we going to blame Hitlers Jewish Grandfather for what happened? Where does it end?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilahh View Post
    Did you read what I wrote? His parents claimed each grossly neglected their duty of care and were cruel. They also abandoned Jeffrey with no food or money, severely neglecting him.

    They failed him!!! And he became a serial killer!!!

    Of course I believe in variables, extreme physical and sexual violence in children occurs through lots of factors. It just never occurs without some parental neglect or abuse. It's a learned behaviour. It's not innate. Children are not naturally extremely violent or sexual. It's learned through observation and exposure. And if the parents themselves don't teach it to children, they allow them to associate with peers and extended family members who do: and they do nothing to counter that learning.

  8. #136
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    ASPD isn't just nurture, it can be nature as well. I found this interesting

    "What these two groups have in common is poor impulse control. This faculty relies on the part of the brain called the prefrontal cortex, most particularly the orbitofrontal cortex. It is known that lesions to this part of the brain impair planning, prediction of consequences, and inhibition of socially unacceptable behaviour – the cognitive mechanisms of “free won’t”, rather than free will. This brain region is also normally activated by aversive learning, and this activation is also reduced in psychopaths. In addition, both the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala show substantial average reductions in size in psychopaths, suggesting a structural difference in their brains."

    http://www.sociopathworld.com/p/port...sociopath.html

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  10. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    ASPD isn't just nurture, it can be nature as well. I found this interesting

    "What these two groups have in common is poor impulse control. This faculty relies on the part of the brain called the prefrontal cortex, most particularly the orbitofrontal cortex. It is known that lesions to this part of the brain impair planning, prediction of consequences, and inhibition of socially unacceptable behaviour – the cognitive mechanisms of “free won’t”, rather than free will. This brain region is also normally activated by aversive learning, and this activation is also reduced in psychopaths. In addition, both the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala show substantial average reductions in size in psychopaths, suggesting a structural difference in their brains."

    http://www.sociopathworld.com/p/port...sociopath.html
    Yeah that's a great point. I would argue that because the frontal lobe is so under developed at birth, it this area of the brain most impacted by environmental factors. So while it is a "nature" element, it occurred largely through early nurturing experience, starting at the mother-baby bonding level. ASPD's are characterized by inability to recognize fear or distress emotions in the faces of others (the amygdala part). Research shows that occurs again at a nurture level: mother's have less eye contact with their babies, that sort of thing.

  11. #138
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    Lots of people with ASPD lead normal lives, have families and jobs. I believe that the disorder is nature, but the difference between functioning people with ASPD and people that commit serious crimes with the disorder, is nurture.

    So nature is the seed, but nurture is the water that grows the offender iykwim

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  13. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by smileygirl View Post
    i don't "feel sorry for the perp". More that i respect that he is still a child and that one day, however unlikely, my child could make a stupid choice too.

    Science proves that their brains are not developed...history proves that prison turns kids like this into victims of rape and horrific violence which turns them into career criminals which is bad for everyone.

    i'm not saying "don't punish them", i am saying don't destroy them. there needs to be a step between juvenile detention and adult prison for those who are 18-27, first time offenders.

    like i said earlier..he would know rationally hitting is wrong, but being able to forsee consequences of death was unlikely.
    Smileygirl there is a prison for young male offenders aged between 18 -25. It's based out at windsor nsw. You would be suprised at how many are in there for murder or rape and some have great parents but are just little sh.ts while others have crappy parents. Most of the young males coming into custody see it as a badge of honour theses days as jail is not a deterrant anymore. The system is soft. The general public would have a heartattack knowing what these scum get due to all the do gooders around. But i am a bit miffed at were you get your facts that inmates get raped evryday. thats bull****, yes it does happen but not as often at what you make out. get your facts right.

  14. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilahh View Post
    Did you read what I wrote? His parents claimed each grossly neglected their duty of care and were cruel. They also abandoned Jeffrey with no food or money, severely neglecting him.

    They failed him!!! And he became a serial killer!!!

    Of course I believe in variables, extreme physical and sexual violence in children occurs through lots of factors. It just never occurs without some parental neglect or abuse. It's a learned behaviour. It's not innate. Children are not naturally extremely violent or sexual. It's learned through observation and exposure. And if the parents themselves don't teach it to children, they allow them to associate with peers and extended family members who do: and they do nothing to counter that learning.
    I accidentally THANKED you I didn't mean to at all, as I dont agree with you and what you have been saying.

    You can't keep playing a blame game in life, everyone has the power to become whoever they want to be & at 18 they know what they are doing, he is completely and solely responsible for his actions and he should be punished for what he did. As they say if you can commit the crime you can do the time..

    The poor guy that has lost his life and his family & friends who have lost their love one will never get him back, he was takin away by an awful person who has no care or respect for another human being, it disgusts me that some people try to make excuses for this kind of behavior!!!

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