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  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4underfour View Post
    Grr link didn't work.
    Study was of 30,000 women who were having second birth after CS.
    Risk of rupture was 0.15% in spontaneous labour, 1.91% in spontaneous labour with oxytocin augmentation.
    Risk with induction was 0.54% for oxytocin alone, 0.68% for prostaglandin alone and 0.88% when combined.

    I wouldn't say the risks are so small they are non recordable (I don't even know what that means lol) but they are small risks.
    Non recorded deaths over uterine rupture, not over a rupture. Uterine Rupture is just as likely even if you've never had a c/s and it can happen during a c/s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thermolicious View Post
    But you (collective you) support women who choose elective cesarean sections with no medical indication, how is that any different?

    Sorry I don't understand this concept
    This is what I'm not getting any answers to. C/sections carry more risks, elective c/sections (with no medical necessity) carry more risks for the baby, early delieveries before a baby is ready, breathing difficulties. How is this doing the best for the baby? I don't get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    I said I was out, but even though I unsubscribed it still showed up in my feed! What's a girl to do?

    Lily, please read my post. I said that there were certain birth choices that very few people would support, like birthing while sky-diving. It made sense in the context, it was an exercise in logic.

    I never said I didn't support a woman's right to birth at home, I do.

    And Thermolicious... Women's rights, human rights, my point remains the same. Do you support a woman's right to a hot air balloon birth? If like me you don't, because you believe it is clearly dangerous and reckless, then you and Mia are employing the same logic. It may make her mistaken and misinformed, but it doesn't make her a violator of human rights.
    I think this is an extreme example tbh and I'd rather stick to the topic of hb c/s vbac etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    I can see we're not going to agree here. But let me ask you one more thing... What if homebirths *were* more dangerous? What if they resulted in an unacceptable number of deaths? Would you still consider them a human right?

    To Mia they represent an unacceptable risk. That doesn't make her an ogre, at worst it makes her uninformed. That's all I'm trying to say
    But they don't, so how could anyone make such a big stance on something that affects womens rights to birthing at home?
    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Can I ask where you got your information from? Not being narky, am seriously open to learning about this.
    I did so much research on this when I was planning my vbac that there is no way I'm going to go back and find links and info. But you must know from having c/sections yourself the risks involved with that and the risks with repeat c/sections. People call vbac high risk, when in actual fact your not high risk and the hospital doesn't call you high risk. Uterine rupture is not the main factor in dr's and women choosing elective c/sections because they've already had one, there is a 30% chance of a repeat emergency c/section (and this goes up if you've had more than 1) and an emergency c/section is riskier than an elective controlled c/section, it has nothing to do with vaginal birth risks and uterine rupture is not the main factor.
    Like I said, babies or mothers dying from this is very very rare. Women have had a uterine rupture and gone on to have more children. Our uterus is alot stronger than you think

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily of the Nile View Post
    I think this is an extreme example tbh and I'd rather stick to the topic of hb c/s vbac etc.


    But they don't, so how could anyone make such a big stance on something that affects womens rights to birthing at home?
    Oh for heaven's sake! I used an extreme example because I wanted people to concentrate on the logic rather than their emotional attachment to the content! I could just as easily have used "x"s and "y"s.

    And when you say "but they don't", you're basing that on your own research. There's plenty of literature to the contrary, for example the official stance of many hospitals and obstetricians. Outside of BubHub, things like VBA3C and freebirth are in the realm of fringe-dwellers, and even homebirth is generally viewed with suspicion. Mia is hardly being radical here.

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  4. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    Oh for heaven's sake! I used an extreme example because I wanted people to concentrate on the logic rather than their emotional attachment to the content! I could just as easily have used "x"s and "y"s.

    And when you say "but they don't", you're basing that on your own research. There's plenty of literature to the contrary, for example the official stance of many hospitals and obstetricians. Outside of BubHub, things like VBA3C and freebirth are in the realm of fringe-dwellers, and even homebirth is generally viewed with suspicion. Mia is hardly being radical here.
    Its not logical to compare homebirth vbacs and even c/s's to wanting to skydive while giving birth. I don't know why you're getting angry.
    The official stance by hospitals? Hospitals are trialing homebirths, if their official stance is they're too dangerous, why would they be doing this? And why would obstrecicians support something they are not essentialy involved in? You need to look at counries where hospitals and homebirths work together to see the real statistics on whether homebirths are more dangerous. And they're not.
    Outside of bubhub women tend to do whatever their dr's say. After my c/s at my 6 week appointment by ob said for my next birth I'll have a c/s because I've had one I'll always need one. When I told people I'm having a vb they said 'I thought once a c/s always a c/s?' Yet when I went public, the hospital dr's and midwives were encouraging of a vbac and all the research pointed to that being less of a risk than a repeat c/s. Just because your dr says something, doesn't mean you blindly follow. I would research everything for any operation being suggested to me. People don't do their research, so just because its main****** doesn't make you right.

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  6. #514
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    You're preaching to the choir Lily. And you've missed my point.

    Fingers crossed the unsubscribe works this time

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I went private with nr 1 and had a great ob/surgeon and anaethesist with my csec. It was bleepin expensive though (approx $7,000 out of pocket). Purely for the financial aspect I was considering going public for nr 2. After hearing some of the horror stories from all the ladies on here, I'm rethinking that... If I have to have another csec, I'd like the same team behind me!
    Wow that's a lot to be out of pocket. Did you not have private health cover. I was out of pocket $900 both times and that was my obs fee for management during pregnancy.

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    Not even sure why we are talking about vbac homebirths, there doesn't seem to be much risk at all in that- I was talking about very high risk homebirths which you still haven't commented on.

    I was just trawling through the internet - trying to find homebirth examples of the way my twins were positioned in utero, and I came across a homebirth forum and about 95% of the responders where things like "I homebirth, but I would never attempt a homebirth with twin a breech and twin b head down".

    That is what I am talking about - when even the most seasoned homebirther won't risk something but there will always be that one or two out there who think they know better than pretty much everyone else, those are the ones I will *never* understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lily of the Nile View Post
    Its not logical to compare homebirth vbacs and even c/s's to wanting to skydive while giving birth. I don't know why you're getting angry.
    The official stance by hospitals? Hospitals are trialing homebirths, if their official stance is they're too dangerous, why would they be doing this? And why would obstrecicians support something they are not essentialy involved in? You need to look at counries where hospitals and homebirths work together to see the real statistics on whether homebirths are more dangerous. And they're not.
    Outside of bubhub women tend to do whatever their dr's say. After my c/s at my 6 week appointment by ob said for my next birth I'll have a c/s because I've had one I'll always need one. When I told people I'm having a vb they said 'I thought once a c/s always a c/s?' Yet when I went public, the hospital dr's and midwives were encouraging of a vbac and all the research pointed to that being less of a risk than a repeat c/s. Just because your dr says something, doesn't mean you blindly follow. I would research everything for any operation being suggested to me. People don't do their research, so just because its main****** doesn't make you right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberleygal1 View Post
    Wow that's a lot to be out of pocket. Did you not have private health cover. I was out of pocket $900 both times and that was my obs fee for management during pregnancy.
    My god - I was out of pocket more than $7000 even

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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    I can see we're not going to agree here. But let me ask you one more thing... What if homebirths *were* more dangerous? What if they resulted in an unacceptable number of deaths? Would you still consider them a human right?
    But see, look at purely elective c/s. It IS more dangerous than a low risk vb. But most here (including myself) will say they support that choice as long as the woman knows the risk.

    Why is hb different? My train of thought is you (a general you) either support choice full stop, or you don't support choice where studies show a higher risk of something bad happening. be that birthing breech twins with GD.... or an elective c/s.

    Otherwise we fall into the territory of this being just anti hb, not anti dangerous birthing...

    eta I see you unsub'ed so won't probably see this lol
    Last edited by delirium; 20-06-2012 at 11:23.

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  13. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    You're preaching to the choir Lily. And you've missed my point.

    Fingers crossed the unsubscribe works this time
    I didn't miss your point, I know what you were trying to say and it was an illogical example to use.
    Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm not understanding you.
    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Not even sure why we are talking about vbac homebirths, there doesn't seem to be much risk at all in that- I was talking about very high risk homebirths which you still haven't commented on.

    I was just trawling through the internet - trying to find homebirth examples of the way my twins were positioned in utero, and I came across a homebirth forum and about 95% of the responders where things like "I homebirth, but I would never attempt a homebirth with twin a breech and twin b head down".

    That is what I am talking about - when even the most seasoned homebirther won't risk something but there will always be that one or two out there who think they know better than pretty much everyone else, those are the ones I will *never* understand.
    Hang on, Mia is not just against freebirth, she has spoken out against homebirth aswell and in her article she spoke about those 4 deaths that have been in the news and those weren't freebirths. So we are on topic here.
    VicPark gave an example of a baby dying due to a vbac and I challenge her to look into that because there are no reported cases. Something else happened.
    People make alot of assumptions about things they're not really clued up on.
    There have been many comments in this thread of people being afraid and seeing homebirths and vbacs as high risk. This is fine, but its when its projected to other people that's the problem. Why aren't I only commenting on freebirth? Because that is not what's only in question. We're talking about people seeing anything that doesn't involve a dr or a hospital as more dangerous and I challenge that.

    A c/s has many complications, having an elective c/s for no medical reason isn't safer for the baby and its known as having more risks. Why is this ok? No one is addressing that either. There is a double standard when it comes down to it and you don't see anyone calling that selfish or a birthzilla? Having a c/s is the most controlled form of giving birth, its ironic someone would call someone a control freak for having a 'birth plan' but not someone having a c/s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberleygal1 View Post
    Wow that's a lot to be out of pocket. Did you not have private health cover. I was out of pocket $900 both times and that was my obs fee for management during pregnancy.
    I have medibank private. My ob fee was $4,500. Hospital excess $500, anesthetic out of pocket $700. The rest was scans, tests etc above what Medicare provided, as well as pediatrician visits in hospital (bub was breech had to double check hips).

    Private health insurance is a bloody
    Crock. Down with labor.. And liberal. !


 

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