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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by share a book View Post
    She is saying no birth matters. At all.
    Quote Originally Posted by missie_mack View Post
    But she is saying birth plans don't. People use these to avoid trauma which often happens when birth is left to the system to decide its direction
    Okay - gotcha. I see what you mean now.

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  3. #112
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    headoverfeet is offline The truth will set you free, but first it will **** you off. -Gloria Steinem
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlissedOut View Post
    I think having a planned free birth is negligent.

    I'm a huge supporter of home birthing, but having a trained support person present can be the difference between life and death, even in a relatively straight forward labour and birth.

    I don't under the concern about having a MW present or how it takes away from the experience.
    It's like saying to a normal healthy couple that you don't understand why they don't have a fertility specialist present at conception it's because we believe that birth is as uncomplicated as any other normal physiological body action ie doing a poop. If your interested you can look at Ina Mays sphincter law, she explains it a lot better than I could.

  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thermolicious View Post
    It's like saying to a normal healthy couple that you don't understand why they don't have a fertility specialist present at conception it's because we believe that birth is as uncomplicated as any other normal physiological body action ie doing a poop. If your interested you can look at Ina Mays sphincter law, she explains it a lot better than I could.
    Conception doesn't have life or death risks and you don't know if the birth is uncomplicated until it's done.

  5. #114
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    Re freebirths, I would never have one - ever. But the only owner of her body is the mother herself, so I could never imagine trying to dictate what others can do with their own body.

    Hospital births also come with risks, as do caesarians. Elective caesarians have double mortality rate of a straightforward VB, but I don't think that mothers who have one are putting themselves or their baby at risk.

    Their body, their choice.

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  7. #115
    headoverfeet's Avatar
    headoverfeet is offline The truth will set you free, but first it will **** you off. -Gloria Steinem
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlissedOut View Post
    Conception doesn't have life or death risks and you don't know if the birth is uncomplicated until it's done.
    Just as you have faith that your elective Cs was a safe choice I have the belief that my freebirth was safe choice too. There are risks to both it's a choice you make for you and your baby just as mine was a choice I made for me and my baby. I would never have an elective Cs because I don't believe it's safe, to me it's a huge risk that's why you make your choices and I make mine

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  9. #116
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    Eko is offline Acrobatic Dominatrix.
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    Hrm, I have to agree with what she's said but only because I've personally been on the receiving end of the "too posh to push" comment when I had an emergency c section for DS.

    I believe she's judging THAT kind of person, the kind who judges whether someone else's birth experience was good based on their own experience and that's not fair.
    I don't care if someone else found it incredibly empowering to give birth naturally. I've done plenty of things in my life that women who have insulted me as a mother would never DREAM of doing. But I'm less of a woman because I didn't do it the same way as they did.

    For me, birthing is the same as religion. Yours is yours and mine is mine. I'm not interested in yours, and I won't bore you with the details of mine .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thermolicious View Post
    Just as you have faith that your elective Cs was a safe choice I have the belief that my freebirth was safe choice too. There are risks to both it's a choice you make for you and your baby just as mine was a choice I made for me and my baby. I would never have an elective Cs because I don't believe it's safe, to me it's a huge risk that's why you make your choices and I make mine
    I didn't believe my c-section was a 'safe choice'. I believed it was a safer choice than a long labour followed emergency caesarean, which was a real risk. I was in an environment best equipped to deal with any of the risk associated with a caesarean, which was some comfort, but it still didn't make it a 'safe choice', just the best choice for me.

    I ideally would've had a water birth at home, attended by a midwife - if that had been an option available to me. If I hadn't moved to Australia I am pretty certain I would've had this birth.

    I'm not being nasty or aggressive here, I am genuinely trying to understand your POV. Would you have accepted a midwifes presence at your birth if she was a good friend who you were comfortable with and trusted? If yes, would it be a preferable situation to free birthing, if not, why not?

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    The thing is, it's an opinion piece. She does one every week. She's done hundreds of articles on all kinds of things. I don't think she intended it to be read into with the same level of scrutiny with which one might approach a medical journal.

    It's her opinion, and it's one that resonates with some women and not with others. It's also meant to be light hearted.

    When I read it, I honestly had a feeling of "YES! At last someone has said it!" I even saved the section to show DH, who liked it too.

    I don't think that it had sinister undertones of removing choice from mothers. I think it was simply having a bit of a groan at "THOSE" mums. She's not saying everyone who does XYZ is one of THOSE mums - she's just saying that THOSE mums can be a pain in the neck - and I agree.

    By THOSE mums I take it that she's referring to those who are all about the birth more so than the baby. Just like there are perfectly well balanced brides, who plan the wedding, and yet still think of the marriage as the main event, there are bridezillas out there who seem to focus more energy on the wedding than the marriage. And I agree with Mia that there are birthzillas out there too! And b00bzillas, and foodzillas, and all sorts.

    That's not to say that everyone who cares about these issues is a 'zilla' - just that there are zillas out there. I've definitely encountered several!

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  13. #119
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    lambjam is offline Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!
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    It may be testament to her own bad writing, but I really think the point has been lost.

    She's not saying that people shouldn't have a preferred way of birthing, or that birth itself doesn't matter. What she's saying is that you can plan all you like but the reality of birth is that plans change, and we need to be flexible. Given that, it is ridiculous for any woman to identify herself with the birth she would like, or for her to base her opinions of another woman on her definition of an ideal birth. And whether everyone here acknowledges it or not, many women do base their opinions of each other on something as arbitrary as a birth plan!

    Birth choices should not be considered life ideologies, rather a means to an end. That's not to say that birth doesn't affect us in many and varied ways, but it is to say that our preferences in the matter do not define us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlissedOut View Post
    I'm not being nasty or aggressive here, I am genuinely trying to understand your POV. Would you have accepted a midwifes presence at your birth if she was a good friend who you were comfortable with and trusted? If yes, would it be a preferable situation to free birthing, if not, why not?
    I'm another that would never free birth for several reasons. But I think most that do are bc in the hospital system they would be forced to have a c/s for reasons they believe are wrong. breech is a perfect example. Many IM's now require insurance, and sometimes birth considered 'high risk' but aren't really, for example 2 previous c/s, won't touch these women for a HB.

    So their choice is either get stuck with another c/s, or free birth. Complicated in the subject is that it isn't so much being adverse to c/s in themselves, but many of these women have trauma from them.

    Take me for example - 2 previous c/s for breech (which I consider a ridiculous reason to begin with). Another pg would mean in the hospital system would mean automatic c/s, no bargaining or choice. Many HB middies wouldn't touch me to keep in line with insurance.

    Then there's issues of access. My closest IM is around 4+ hours drive time. That's too long for me. So for a 3rd pg I have the choice of a) another c/s b) freebirth. So for me, it has to be another damn c/s. For others out of those 2 options they pick FB

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