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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsugar View Post
    Don't religious views come into play in all you do? It does for me, coz that's my core belief. God is the centre of my being... that's just how I see it.
    No, I'm not really religious. I don't need god to dictate to me how live a morally good life.

    There are plenty of religious people whose views are a bit more flexible in the 21st century.

    Religious laws and state laws should be separate, but a lot of the time, they're not.
    Last edited by BigRedV; 29-05-2012 at 06:24.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsugar View Post
    Lily of the Nile:
    I was actually talking of MYSELF and my spiritual and emotional growth through the sufferings of my family. It dramatically changed my life and I will be ever thankful for those experiences.

    However, of course I agree with you about us losing those emotions. We lose the ability to care for another even when it inconveniences our own nuclear families, it encourages selfishness, it takes away that close bonding that is possible during such emotionally traumatic times.

    If you are still breathing, your mission on earth is incomplete. I honestly believe that.
    I don't think my father has lost the ability to care for my mother. In fact, she goes to camp where she lives like a queen so my dad can have a bit of respite, because he is so busy caring for her. I don't think he is selfish at all. My dad is very religious, but seeing his wife in pain is not what he wants to see. If my mum wanted to die because she could no longer stand her condition, then my dad would do it, and ask for god's forgiveness because he thought it was the right thing to do.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveInTheBed View Post
    I was talking about the point you brought up about an individual's decision affecting those around them who may hold a religious view, or not agree.
    I gather you were suggesting (or thinking out loud) that the family around the person dying should have their thoughts and beliefs taken into consideration before teh medical intervention took place?
    Some people don't agree with abortion and would be very upset, traumatised etc if their female family member terminated a pregnancy.
    Whose right gets higher priority?

    I personally view them in a similar light, 'your body, your choice'
    I thought that's what you were getting at. I don't think someones abortion is the same as helping your family member die. Both choices have different consequences that affect the people involved differently.
    Just because it's our bodies we don't have a choice in everything, not when it affects society.
    So by your point of view you agree with non medical late term abortions? 'Assisting' a mentally ill person commit suicide? If you're going to view everything as a persons right to choice for their body surely more things will come into law as a result.

    Brown sugar I know what you mean now thanks for that. Sorry about your family member. It's hard for me to really know what I believe, you've been in the situation and can still say how you feel, I haven't so I have more questions than answers. It's easy to say yes or no now, but in the situation things can change.

    I guess everyone has their own opinion on this and I think everyone has the right to say how they want our laws to be. Whether its religious or atheist everyone has a right to say what they want as a law.
    This is not as simple as 'my body my choice' Abortion is legal for many many reasons so I really don't see the comparison. 2 seperate issues with their own implications.

  4. #264
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    For a lot of patients the treatment ..say for cancer is horrible..makes them very ill..they may have a chance at prolonging death..but at a horrible cost..they may get another 6 months of "living" only for it to kill them in the end..why for them do they have to keep going..why for them if they are at peace with dying....not just let them?

    It is a truly hard thing for someone to ask a loved one to help them die..BUT it is FAR worse to watch them suffer!!

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  6. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily of the Nile View Post
    I thought that's what you were getting at. I don't think someones abortion is the same as helping your family member die. Both choices have different consequences that affect the people involved differently.
    Just because it's our bodies we don't have a choice in everything, not when it affects society.
    So by your point of view you agree with non medical late term abortions? 'Assisting' a mentally ill person commit suicide? If you're going to view everything as a persons right to choice for their body surely more things will come into law as a result.
    .
    Fair enough - was just trying to understand your point.

    umm.. for me on those points - I support Abortion being 'legal' as opposed to 'illegal' - but much the same as this issue (take the guidelines I posted from the Netherlands as an example) ...I agree with regulations and restrictions.



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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsugar View Post
    Thirdly, when I said "for those reasons i don't think it's best not an option for non-believers", I was talking about the parts that had nothing to do with my belief in a God and the fact that I believe it's up to God to decide our exit from this earth, just as I believe He decided when we were to be born.
    At he risk of sounding argumentative...given how many babies are born by elective section/induction of labour...god didn't decide when those babies were born


    But if we want to hand control over to god...well then why are we attempting to treat people at all? Obviously if god wants them to survive liver cancer, they will. Without us giving them chemo/surgery/radiation.

    (honestly curious-cause that argument can't just be limited to death if you're going to follow it, right? )

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  9. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    At he risk of sounding argumentative...given how many babies are born by elective section/induction of labour...god didn't decide when those babies were born


    But if we want to hand control over to god...well then why are we attempting to treat people at all? Obviously if god wants them to survive liver cancer, they will. Without us giving them chemo/surgery/radiation.

    (honestly curious-cause that argument can't just be limited to death if you're going to follow it, right? )
    I think when she said 'born' she was referring to 'conceived' as this is what most people believe.



    mummy to gods gift to us

  10. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by knomie View Post
    I think when she said 'born' she was referring to 'conceived' as this is what most people believe.
    No, I don't think this is what most people believe at all actually. I think most people believe that 'born' and 'conceive' are two separate things.

    For instance, if someone asks you when you were born, you do not give them the date you were conceived on.

  11. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveInTheBed View Post
    Fair enough - was just trying to understand your point.

    umm.. for me on those points - I support Abortion being 'legal' as opposed to 'illegal' - but much the same as this issue (take the guidelines I posted from the Netherlands as an example) ...I agree with regulations and restrictions.


    I'm pro choice for lots of reasons, but then I have issues with non medical late term abortions. I would never support a woman aborting at 35 weeks just because it's her body her choice. I'd probably support to keep that illegal. I get what people are saying though, I do. After reading the guidelines I'd probably support it because its strict and would be a thorough process. But I also understand against arguments and someone basing their stance on their belief system. I know it shouldn't affect someone who doesn't believe in those, but thats just how it is, people's opinions will be affected by what they believe and their opinion also matters. I guess I just found issue with saying no one else matters, no else is affected and its their choice, when in reality yes people are affected by death.

    I think the comparison to choosing when to have an elective c/s is like playing God, I don't agree. The individual person is not choosing when to be born, the baby isn't communicating and setting their due date. The mother and dr may choose that date, but not the baby. So to grow up and then be able to choose the day you die and have people help you die is quite different.
    Yes I do also believe God chooses the day you're born and the day you die.

  12. #270
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    From Christian standpoint I think that a lot of Christians have missed one very important element here. God gave us free will!

    Therefore, as a christian, I feel uncomfortable taking that will away. What right do I have to take away free will that God has given them?

    I hate euthanasia and abortion with a passion! I could never do it or agree with it but I do not have the right to take the choice away from others. They can choose to do what they will to their own bodies - end of story!

    There shouldn't be any argument. No one is asking YOU to do it...only to allow others to keep their own free will as God has given them.

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