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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveInTheBed View Post
    Lily - I askd I question re one of your points a few posts back.

    Do you see a comparison? re - prioritising individuals beliefs and wishes.
    I did but I didn't understand your question. Not really sure, I see these issues as completely different and can't make a comparison (plus I'm going to bed now and my brain has slowed down so I can't think about it properly)

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily of the Nile View Post
    I wasn't grouchy. Don't make it personal, it now sounds like you are having a go for no reason.
    I'm asking questions to get my head around people's reasons on both sides. I need to do that before I can sit on one side of the fence without a doubt. I can't argue something when I'm not clear on questions that pop in my head. Not trying to debate or sound argumentative, but if you collectively have no doubts I'd like to know how you reason with those questions so that maybe I can see it clearer as well.
    For me, the main points are:
    • Compassion and dignity
    • The right to determine how you will end your life when you have been put in the position of losing your quality of life
    • Appropriate laws and guidelines which allow for people to make their wishes clear whilst they have capacity to do so, and a panel of experts who can ensure that decisions are made in the best interests of the rights and dignity of people who no longer have decision making capacity, or the ability to communicate said decisions
    • That the process considers the family of the dying, but places the onus on the wishes of the dying and the health professionals who are involved in the persons care.
    These are just my thoughts.. I have worked on the fringes of aged care and health for a long time to consider these things.

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  4. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily of the Nile View Post
    I wasn't grouchy. Don't make it personal, it now sounds like you are having a go for no reason.
    I'm asking questions to get my head around people's reasons on both sides. I need to do that before I can sit on one side of the fence without a doubt. I can't argue something when I'm not clear on questions that pop in my head. Not trying to debate or sound argumentative, but if you collectively have no doubts I'd like to know how you reason with those questions so that maybe I can see it clearer as well.
    Sounded as if you were - and I wasn't being argumentative - just the internet I suppose - all that lack of facial expression stuff!

    Anyhow -I get what you are saying. Its good to see both sides

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily of the Nile View Post
    I did but I didn't understand your question. Not really sure, I see these issues as completely different and can't make a comparison (plus I'm going to bed now and my brain has slowed down so I can't think about it properly)
    That's all I needed to know - that you view them in different light.
    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweendee View Post

    for me it all comes down to one word and one word only...


    dignity




    Ok so im also really curious as to why people think those who die from horrible, painful terminal illness have less 'dignity' than someone who chooses euthanasia at an earlier stage of a disease? Not having a go at you halloweendee, but dignity is something that is brought up alot around euthanasia debate/discussion, and for me personally i dont see dying from a horrible illness as 'undignified'

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    Some people feel that it's undignified to have people clean up after their toileting, I'm sure the poor woman lambjam mentioned earlier probably thought it was a pretty unjust and undignified death when she died throwing up poo.

    I don't like to entertain the idea that euthanasia should be a no no due to some people's belief that we should suffer now on the off chance that there is an afterlife. Make that decision for yourself, but keep others and their rights out of it.

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  10. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveInTheBed View Post
    That's all I needed to know - that you view them in different light.
    Thanks.
    Not a final answer yet, still thinking about it. Do you view them differently?

    I just wanted to elaborate on brown sugars comment before I really do go off and read the answers tomorrow.
    If we were to never see pain and suffering how do we know empathy? I was thinking before about what she was saying and I saw it like this. If euthanasia had been around for 50 years say and we never got to know suffering like we do now, how do we make decisions like legalising euthanasia (which in 50 years another issue will be raised) but does it evolve or do we lose it?
    Is that what you were getting at brown sugar? Not the individual person learning something but our general growth as humans. By ending suffering, do we lose those emotions?

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  12. #248
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    Yeah ana gram i get you, and i know that is popular belief benji - that the personal care involved with terminal illness is undignified... I just dont really understand why people feel that way, its not like people choose to due from the end stages of a terminal illness, its not like they choose to not be able to toilet independently, i think it is unfortunate, but i dont think it is undignified, if that makes sense?

    Im a nurse and have nursed palliative patients, im fully aware of what they go through and what is involved, but i definitely dont think any less of anyone for it and i dont think they lose their dignity because of it. Perhaps i am just desensitised to such things?

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    I don't think anyone is saying terminal illness is undignified as such. But some people, that are going thru it, consider it undignified for *them*.

    Personally I'd rather check out then not remember my kids from dementia and have others wiping my bottom. That doesn't mean those that accept that are undignified. Just that I within myself would feel that way.

    I understand that seeing a loved one end their life is traumatic. But just for me, I would find them in agonising pain begging to die far more so. I'm not sure I agree with loved ones asking a person not to go peacefully bc of their own religious beliefs are fair. It isn't suicide in the true sense of the world so they aren't going to hell from a religious perspective.

    Each to their own though I guess....

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    No, of course most nurses don't think any less of their patients. Although sadly I have come across some incredibly nasty aged care workers

    I guess for some they see dying while vomiting poo, dying in pain rather than at home with their family, dying in agony, or losing their marbles because the disease has spread to their brain is an undignified death. I can understand totally why they would feel this way.

    I tend to think more of the pain/discomfort that they would be feeling at the time - which could be completely avoided.


 

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