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  1. #41
    Witwicky's Avatar
    Witwicky is offline A closed mouth gathers no foot.
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    The debate regarding the relationship between paedeophilia and celibacy has been ongoing for many, many years due to the high incidence of child abuse in the Catholic church and the obvious correlation. Yes, paedophiles are known to seek employment where they have close access to children, however priests have less contact with children, comparatively, than a lot of other professions, yet the rate of child abuse is still incredibly high. It certainly shouldn't be disregarded in the celibacy debate.

    In answer to the actual OP - I believe celibacy, for most, goes against human nature. It's not natural to suppress sexual urges.

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    Not 1 person working for QR was ever convicted, never even made the paper yet at least a dozen were involved in dealings with minors, including gambling with their own kids as young as 12. They were all married, all parents, all had access to paid s e x workers...

  3. #43
    Witwicky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by share a book View Post
    Govt agencies DO cover it up. Please, it is dangerous to think that transparency or religin is to blame for peadophilia.
    The Catholic church is renowned for covering up child sex abuse cases and keeping it within the church...would you like some examples? I have dozens. The Catholic hierarchy have failed to report allegations to the authorities for decades, to the point where reforms were introduced to prevent further abuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witwicky View Post
    The Catholic church is renowned for covering up child sex abuse cases and keeping it within the church...would you like some examples? I have dozens. The Catholic hierarchy have failed to report allegations to the authorities for decades, to the point where reforms were introduced to prevent further abuse.
    Government agencies continue to cover it up too. Look, I just think it can be dangerous to think peadophilia can be caused by celibacy or religion.

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    The Catholic church does indeed have a nasty history regarding sexual abuse - the stories are horrific. I honestly don't think allowing priests to marry would've had/have an impact on this.

    I do believe that priests, brothers and nuns should be able to marry. I've known many beautiful people who took holy orders (which is a sacrament in the catholic church) and who left and then married. Someone's love of christ isn't any less if they love a partner.

    As for scripture? I'm quite hazy but the letters from Paul to Timothy might have something.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by share a book View Post
    Government agencies continue to cover it up too. Look, I just think it can be dangerous to think peadophilia can be caused by celibacy or religion.
    I don't doubt for a moment that other organisations cover it up. However the incidences within the Catholic church have reached the thousands and there have been massive investigations into the actions of those higher members who not only chose to keep it hush hush, but also knowingly reassigned their members to other areas where they continued to have access to children. I don't know of any other organisation who could compare to those extremely high stats.

    In any event, I agree wholeheartedly that celibacy should not be blamed for those occurrences. However, it also shouldn't be pushed aside and nor should any other aspect of the discussion regarding child abuse prevalence within the Catholic church (such as psychsexual development amongst priests etc).

    ETA: I personally don't think celibacy makes children an object of one's desire in any way, shape or form - but there are interesting discussions surrounding both sides of the debate.
    Last edited by Witwicky; 02-05-2012 at 21:53.

  7. #47
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    Havent read the whole thread sorry.

    But i think the priest paedo thing is more to do with priests being one of the most trusted type of people, rather than the celibacy thing. Most people assume priests are the most geniune people, following gods path of never hurting fellow man blah blah.


    Regarding original q) i believe all human beings should be able to marry other human beings.

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    I love how the conversation jumps from if priests should be able to marry to about Pedophiles...

    Any man or women should be able to marry any other man or woman they wish, as long as it adheres to the law.

    So no one gets offended..
    Back to the point people...
    Last edited by Nazgul; 02-05-2012 at 21:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskittyfantastico View Post
    As for scripture? I'm quite hazy but the letters from Paul to Timothy might have something.
    Ok thank you, ive had a look (as im pretty well read when it comes to the bible) Although he may have been married earlier, Paul chose to stay single after he was commissioned as an apostle. (1 Cor. 7:7; 9:5) For the sake of the ministry, both Jesus and Paul encouraged others to imitate their example where possible. Yet, neither of them set celibacy as a requirement for ministers.

    In fact 1 Tim. 4:1-3 says " However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth"

    That scripture says 'forbidding' to marry is a false teaching and not from God.

    Rather it should be a choice as the example of Paul and Jesus shown

    A key point in Paul’s counsel is that Christians would do “well” to make room in their lives for singleness. (1 Corinthians 7:1, 8, 26, 37) In no way, however, does he invite them to take a vow of celibacy. On the contrary, he wrote: “If anyone thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virginity, if that is past the bloom of youth, and this is the way it should take place, let him do what he wants; he does not sin. Let them marry.” -1 Corinthians 7:36.

    I really cant see the scriptural basis for celibacy at all.

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    I grew up in north Queensland in the 70s and 80s, and my brothers attended a Christian brothers high school where the rape of teenage boys was rampant. They were lucky as they were strong enough to fight back.

    My sister attended a catholic primary school and she and her best friend were raped by a priest when they were in grade 2. when my parents found out they tried to speak to the school, the police, politicians but no one wanted to know about it. In the end in all cases the priests were "sent away to camp" and my parents told that no harm could come to others because they had been removed from children.

    I agree that celibacy is completely unnatural and impossible for most people to stick to. But one of the biggest problems is that it can also lead to alcoholism (shame associated with doing "evil things" even in private doesn't help) and alcoholism can create an unhealthy environment for children and priests. My parish priest from primary school in Brisbane went to jail. He was a renowned alcoholic who's judgment I'm sure was greatly impaired and who did a lot of very "ungodly" things as a consequence.

    One of the saddest things about this approach is that the priests don't get help and the kids get angry. My sister can't look at a catholic church without feeling nauseous, and to this day my parents still feel like they failed her.

    So yes even if the change made only one priests life easier, or stopped the rape of one child, I support it wholeheartedly. How could anyone not?
    Last edited by Sonja; 02-05-2012 at 21:59.


 

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