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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyla View Post
    You must be! Dawkins description of anti matter in relation to nothingness was not dumb. A basic understanding of particle physics will tell you that. It's hard to have a proper debate with someone with a more limited intellectual ability which was blatantly obvious last night.
    I've seen better intellectual debates on BH between FiveInTheBed and Lily of the Nile, most definitely!
    We are all biased obviously based on our experiences and beliefs. Like I said, so be it!

  2. #62
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    Dawkins is immensely intelligent but not really a people person, especially when they seem unable to grasp what he is saying, which seemed to be where Pell was at.

    On topic, I think telling children they are going to hell is pretty awful. As is saying the dead rot in the ground, I've never heard anyone use that type of terminology myself.

    When I was 7, my mother wanted to get me Christened in the family church where my parents were married, grandparents married, my brother was christened and all the other children of my extended family were christened. The priest told my mother, while I was standing there, that it was 'too late' for me as I was going to hell now. Pretty awful to hear as a child really.

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    I don't think it's child abuse, but I do think it's highly inappropriate. I would be peeved BIG time if anyone ever said that to my child.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    Pell never claimed to have a scientific background but Dawkins the science brain was rambling about his own subject. Anyway we disagree - so be it! Lolz

    Confession is a humbling act and if you really thought about it, I'm sure there are many "sins" we all can confess, whether it be as an adult or 10 year old. We can always do better and be prayerful and thoughtful about improving ourselves. Before u all start jumping at me, yes it can be achieved by other means of course, but for Catholics we're given perfect opportunity to be reflective on out life and attempt to work towards making it better.
    Like you say, there are so many other ways to teach a child to reflect than having to go to confession. I do not look back to my childhood and view confession as a nice memory. It was boring and scary and I will not do that to a child.

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    yes i class it as a form of emotional abuse. as i do with most 'threats' in order to scare a child into behaving.

    lucky for my kids, mummy doesn't believe in hell

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    I don’t think telling a child that they would go to hell is ‘child abuse’ on it’s own, per se, (I think if you rang DOCS and said ‘my friend told their child they would go to hell’ they wouldn’t consider it a reportable offence), but I can see how it could be used as a method in the emotional abuse of a child.

    I think using fear to try to influence a child’s behaviour isn’t healthy in any respect – including the good old ‘the police will come and arrest you if you do that’, or anything to that affect. I would be upset if someone told my child that they would go to hell if they did something naughty.

    I am a school teacher in a Christian school (but currently a SAHM J ), and I taught 5 year olds. I would teach them a little about heaven according to the bible (eg, it is where we spend eternity with God, where we go when we die, etc), but never mentioned hell. If a child asked me about it, I would tell them that it is something that they should talk about with their parents, and then would discuss it with their parents myself also, to give them a heads up and to suggest age-appropriate ways of discussing it, if they wanted suggestions.

    I will not be teaching my child that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell, or that they will go to hell if they sin. When they are old enough, I will be teaching them that Jesus came to earth to save us and forgive us of our sins, and that (when they are old enough), he died on the cross in order to take the punishment for our sins, so that we don’t have to suffer the punishment. I will teach them that ALL of us are sinners, and all fall short of the glory of God – ie, we cannot ‘earn’ our way to heaven by being a good person. I will teach them that going to heaven is a free gift from God, and that we have already been forgiven, at the cross, for everything that we have done and will do, should we choose to accept that forgiveness. I will also explain that God knows our heart, and only He can judge who will go to heaven or hell, it is not for us to judge. I will explain that we want to be christ-like (To live good lives), not to earn our way to heaven, but because we love God and have a relationship with him.

    Like PP, I will be focussing on the gospel of grace, not on hell and damnation. I also don’t believe that a fixation on heaven/ hell is a particularly healthy thing – I believe it is important to maintain an eternal perspective in our lives, but to also live for God in the here and now, not out of fear of what will happen in the future.

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  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ana Gram View Post
    Dawkins is immensely intelligent but not really a people person, especially when they seem unable to grasp what he is saying, which seemed to be where Pell was at.

    On topic, I think telling children they are going to hell is pretty awful. As is saying the dead rot in the ground, I've never heard anyone use that type of terminology myself.

    When I was 7, my mother wanted to get me Christened in the family church where my parents were married, grandparents married, my brother was christened and all the other children of my extended family were christened. The priest told my mother, while I was standing there, that it was 'too late' for me as I was going to hell now. Pretty awful to hear as a child really.
    I think that its really disappointing to hear that someone said that to your mother, AG. I'm assuming that there could have been all different kinds of reasons why your mum couldn't / wouldn't have you baptised before then and any priest / minister I know would just have been glad she was keen on having you done at all! I would have been ropeable if someone had said that about my child within their hearing.

    In response to the OP, I agree with other posters that threatening your child with Hell / telling them they're heading there fits with other emotional abuse.

    However, I do explain the concept of Hell etc to my children when the topic arises. But I make sure that they know that its where people go who a) deliberately break God's rules, and b) don't feel sorry or try to make amends afterwards. It always has to be balanced with the concept of forgiveness.

    As for Dawkins and Pell, I thought Pell came across surprisingly well. He is a very smart man but can lack charisma. But he at least seemed to have a better sense of humour than Dawkins, poor fellow!



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    Quote Originally Posted by Witwicky View Post
    ...

    I don't think it is ever okay to threaten a child to go to hell. Whether that threat is extreme or minor, I think the concept is simply awful. A child should never have to fear going to a place of punishment for all eternity, surrounded by "bad" people. I sincerely believe that is emotional child abuse, along with threatening other 'punishments' (I.e.: a policeman taking them away etc)
    I agree. It's emotional abuse. The younger the child, and the more it is said, the more damaging the effects would be.

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsd View Post
    I think that its really disappointing to hear that someone said that to your mother, AG. I'm assuming that there could have been all different kinds of reasons why your mum couldn't / wouldn't have you baptised before then and any priest / minister I know would just have been glad she was keen on having you done at all! I would have been ropeable if someone had said that about my child within their hearing.
    My dad was military and we moved around quite a lot. There wasn't a lot of money to get back to my parent's hometown for a christening. Different church and different priest was more than happy to do it and all the family used that church for these types of things from then on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsd View Post

    In response to the OP, I agree with other posters that threatening your child with Hell / telling them they're heading there fits with other emotional abuse.

    However, I do explain the concept of Hell etc to my children when the topic arises. But I make sure that they know that its where people go who a) deliberately break God's rules, and b) don't feel sorry or try to make amends afterwards. It always has to be balanced with the concept of forgiveness.
    This is still putting the 'concept' of Hell [however you describe it, burning for eternity I assume?] in a child's mind...it is still making something you are not 100% certain of, a reality for a maleable mind.
    You may not be directly threatening them with something they are doing at the time - but you are suggesting this burning place of torture exists.

    One of 'God's Rules' is not to question god, or not to question his existence - is it not?
    (but, yes - I do suppose this rule may only apply if you are 'hardcore' - or a 'true' *insert religion here*)
    How is this not putting fear into an individual who is growing and learning about the world around them.

    THIS is what Dawkins was getting at.

    Telling a child that unless you follow the rules of your parents chosen invisible force from above, and if you don't grovel for forgiveness for breaking certain rules - the consequence is 'hell'.


 

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