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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveInTheBed View Post
    ..but then again, you DO still have people out there that believe 'God' Controls the weather and sends tornadoes and bushfires to 'punish people'

    ...'Modern day christians' embrace science

    it wasn't always the way throughout history.
    I mentioned before in another post about the position of the sun and how we all know that the Earth orbits around the sun.
    This "idea" was once 'contrary to scripture passages'
    "Biblical references Psalm 93:1, 96:10, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 include text stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved." In the same manner, Psalm 104:5 says, "the Lord set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Further, Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place" etc"
    ...you might want to look up "Galileo" to read about what went on in the 1600's



    I don't want to dismiss your spiritual experience.
    And you were wrong to assume I haven't experienced anything like it


    where we differ is you give your experience the name 'God, your heavenly Father'... which is fine by me, and I'm quite happy to leave the discussion there unless you wish to continue
    [may I take the opportunity to point out here that you say it's NOT indoctrination or influence from your family -- I disagree...because had you been born in another country - you would be giving your spiritual experience totally different name, and you may even believe that there are more 'family members' in those supposed 'heavens']

    ...and I understand mine (and yes I've had a few 'moments' in my lifetime.) to be a chemical reaction in my body...serotonin, dopamine and endorphines etc pumping through my body that create certain visual and physical effects.

    Funny thing in these threads, is quite often people choose to distance themselves from 'religion' and play the 'spirituality' card...
    Which is fine by me -- I actually have more, respect, you could say ...for an "Agnostic Theist" who thinks that 'maybe' there is a 'higher power' out there beyond the cosmos - but doesn't give it a name, nor expect that it has laid down a law to follow.



    Rocker, can you tell me when you had your first 'spiritual experience'?
    and if it was before or after you were introduced to the idea of a God?
    ..sorry - I'm conversing with you and am not sure if you take the Bible 'literally' or 'metaphorically'.


    Oh - and can I point out a didn't refer to God as a "fairy tale" - I was commenting on a post that compared the two.
    But I do put the Bible in the same basket as say the Ancient Egyptians Mythology...an important piece of history.
    Just to address ur particular comments in short...
    Indoctrination - I don't see it as that coz although yes it was my family (from birth) that introduced me to my religion and gave me that sound foundation, however since then as an adult I have explored it further, questioned it... and really enjoyed deepening my faith (I have a long way to go still)... I am so grateful for having been born to my parents for that reason for sure..

    As for being born in another country to say a muslim family... yes I would have been muslim I suppose and would probably have had that belief til my death unless like a few I sought answers and found them elsewhere.... I dont think this means anything... my truth is found in Christianity and I need not look any further... in my opinion... I have a yearning to explore so much more of my current faith that I have no need for another... but if you wish to call it indoctronation it doesnt bother me.. go for it! :P

    As for the scripture passages that you quoted... I don't really care about he rotations of the sun or moon - thats irrelevant to me in the context of my faith. I am very much a follower of Jesus and my core beliefs centre around the new testament... and no, I don't take the bible literally but I do believe that God is the ultimate authority over everything so is witness to everything that happens here on earth, but doesn't send floods and famines etc... I believe we do that ourselves and it's a product of our selfishness, greed and so on...

    My first spiritual experience, thinking off the top of my head was probably when I cared for my grandmother(whom I was very close to) for 19 months after she had a stroke... when such significant events happen in ones life you tend to question everything and in that you find answer... I read the bible cover to cover to her (well I never made it to the end coz she died) and that had a huge impact on my life together with the whole process of being a carer and being witness to her faith through it all...

    Anyway - if talking to me is to "prove me wrong" or to "ridicule my simplistic belief in an unprovable God" there's little point in continuing.. but if it's to get the perspective of someone who is different from you, then that's cool... coz you know we will never be on the same team where this is concerned.

    "Happy are those who have not seen, but still believe" <-- that's me!
    And by the way I'm not afraid to say I'm religious. I am. Went to church this evening and thought of you while in chuch! haha...

  2. #142
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    The other interesting thing about picking some verses from the bible to try to prove one point is that you can also find other verses which state that the earth is round, and that it does revolve etc.

    Not going to go looking for the references now - (for no other reason than I can't be bothered ), but sometimes you have to pull out more than a short verse out of a whole set of verses.

    I like the fact that Columbus stated that the bible is what his basis was for trying to sail around a world which others thought was flat. That took a great deal of faith as imagine if he'd been wrong LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    The other interesting thing about picking some verses from the bible to try to prove one point is that you can also find other verses which state that the earth is round, and that it does revolve etc.

    Not going to go looking for the references now - (for no other reason than I can't be bothered ), but sometimes you have to pull out more than a short verse out of a whole set of verses.

    I like the fact that Columbus stated that the bible is what his basis was for trying to sail around a world which others thought was flat. That took a great deal of faith as imagine if he'd been wrong LOL
    From the research I can find, the ancient Greeks hypothesized that the Earth was spherical two thousand years ago. I also found that Columbus' journey was refused funding not because of his idea that the earth was round, but because he had vastly underestimated the size of the Earth. Discovering America was a bit of a fluke from what I can gather and it was quite accepted that the earth was spherical in most areas of the world by the time he set sail.

    Also, it seems references to the earth being round in the bible was the idea that it was a disk, covered with a dome. Circular, not spherical. But I must admit I haven't read the text - this is just what I gleaned from my Internet research

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  5. #144
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    rocker, it's quite obvious you hold your faith very highly - I'm not trying to ridicule you ....from memory it was you who started asking me personal questions about what I would be teaching my own children and insinuating I had not experienced anything of a sprirtual nature...hence the following conversation.


    (ETA>> -- oh I just re read your post and saw that you thought about me in church! haha!! ...I'm not sure in what sense you thought about me, but don't worry - I'm very happy too )

    If you are happy, continue being happy..that's all I can say I suppose




    Pegasus, the few quotes in my previous post were in relation to the statement that 'christians embrace science' ...I was pointing out that it may be the case today as more discoveries are made and proved to be true, the more the 'church' accepts and grows with. I suggested it was ALWAYS the case and the quotes were taken from a page discussing Galileo.
    Those versus were used by a large group of believers of the Bible that feared their religion would be undermined by the scientific revolution which started with a few things - including heliocentrism.
    Do a quick search and read about Galileo.

    ...and this continues today - obviously with many (not all, but many) refusing to understand and accept how evolution works - because it goes against what the Bible says.
    Last edited by FiveInTheBed; 23-04-2012 at 10:25.

  6. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveInTheBed View Post
    rocker, it's quite obvious you hold your faith very highly - I'm not trying to ridicule you ....from memory it was you who started asking me personal questions about what I would be teaching my own children and insinuating I had not experienced anything of a sprirtual nature...hence the following conversation.

    (ETA>> -- oh I just re read your post and saw that you thought about me in church! haha!! ...I'm not sure in what sense you thought about me, but don't worry - I'm very happy too )
    Yes my faith is number one to me in life over everything.
    I did ask you a personal question about what you would do with ur kids.. and I didn't mean to incinuate that u had no spiritual experiences coz I wouldn't know - I meant/said that you didn't have the spiritual experiences similar to what I have had to lead you to believing that there is a God.

    In church I think u popped into my mind... coz I haven't talked about my religion to anyone for years in the way I have this past week... I wasn't praying for the redemption of ur soul or anything... lolz..

  7. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    I meant/said that you didn't have the spiritual experiences similar to what I have had to lead you to believing that there is a God.
    How do you know she hasn't had a similar spiritual experience and decided there was no god? Perhaps you have just come to different conclusions?

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    oh phew - glad I was just a passing thought! ...was trying to say ever so politely that you need not waste any of your time actively thinking/praying of/for me in church

    and yep, rocker I think it's clear that your faith comes before everything else - the fact that you don't care for understanding how the Earth rotates and it's position in our galaxy etc shows that you have a totally different focus and direction - so I can also understand how a discussion like this one would make you feel.


    Like Ana said we 'might' have experienced something similar - and come to different conclusions....and like you you said we might have had very different experiences.
    I say both
    I'd say you are more influenced by those closest to you, therefore it is easier for you to go with what is portrayed as 'normal' amongst your family.

    I've had a few experiences, but one that stands to me is one that I can imagine a large percentage of people would describe it as 'feeling the hand of a god' or 'being lifted up by an angel' etc.
    ..and - for a few years I did think there was some sort of other worldly intervention. It was one of those stories I would retell that would send shivers down people's arms.
    As I have grown and learnt more about how the mind and body works - I understand it better now..I still think I am very lucky to be alive, but I don't sing praises to a higher being, nor look over my shoulder for someone 'watching over me' anymore -- I simply appreciate the innate responses my body had, that were out of my actaul control, that night.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ana Gram View Post
    How do you know she hasn't had a similar spiritual experience and decided there was no god? Perhaps you have just come to different conclusions?
    I personally don't think it's possible to dismiss God given my experiences..

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    I personally don't think it's possible to dismiss God given my experiences..
    If you feel comfortable sharing, could you?

    OR send me a PM?

    I promise not to pull your experience to bits
    I'd just like to hear what it was you experienced, for interests sake

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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveInTheBed View Post
    oh phew - glad I was just a passing thought! ...was trying to say ever so politely that you need not waste any of your time actively thinking/praying of/for me in church

    and yep, rocker I think it's clear that your faith comes before everything else - the fact that you don't care for understanding how the Earth rotates and it's position in our galaxy etc shows that you have a totally different focus and direction - so I can also understand how a discussion like this one would make you feel.


    Like Ana said we 'might' have experienced something similar - and come to different conclusions....and like you you said we might have had very different experiences.
    I say both
    I'd say you are more influenced by those closest to you, therefore it is easier for you to go with what is portrayed as 'normal' amongst your family.

    I've had a few experiences, but one that stands to me is one that I can imagine a large percentage of people would describe it as 'feeling the hand of a god' or 'being lifted up by an angel' etc.
    ..and - for a few years I did think there was some sort of other worldly intervention. It was one of those stories I would retell that would send shivers down people's arms.
    As I have grown and learnt more about how the mind and body works - I understand it better now..I still think I am very lucky to be alive, but I don't sing praises to a higher being, nor look over my shoulder for someone 'watching over me' anymore -- I simply appreciate the innate responses my body had, that were out of my actaul control, that night.

    Haha yes u we're very much a passing thought. I'm not one of those who feel ur doomed coz u are an atheist. I believe the kingdom of heaven shall be yours (want it or nit!)if u live a good honest life and try to make a positive difference to those around u.

    It's not that I "don't care" about understanding the earth and other parts of science, it's just that I am more an art-sie type of person who's never really been that interested in science. Science to me has nothing to do with whether or not u believe in God. I'll let the scientists do their thing and show me stuff through movies, docos and products I see on shelves.... I needn't attempt to contribute. I do teach science at school tho... But thankfully it's primary so easy enough content...

    I'm sure there are many art-sie people who are atheists and don't care 2much about studying the rotations of earth and it's position in the galaxy! All atheists aren't science nuts like u! Haha..


 

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