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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ana Gram View Post
    The bible is also very heavy reading.
    I don't see it as heavy reading but that's probably coz I'm immersed in Catholicism from the schools I've been in, the masses I attend and the people (family) I'm surrounded by.
    However, it is a children's bible which I will be reading. Very simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    So u will "allow" them to if they "choose to".... U won't be poking it in their faces like the other book u mentioned

    Well... I will be poking the bible in my kids faces (more the teachings really!) as I believe that to be the truth.

    I am originally from a country rich in religious belief (christian, buddhism, hinduism and islam mainly) and am fully aware of the value these religions bring to it's people...but honestly, I can't be stuffed reading their "books" to my kids as it's heavy reading but I'd actually like it if they do so themselves when they are old enough to comprehend it... I've attempted to read the qur'an and Buddhist book (can't remember it's name) but gave up after a bit...
    ...no ofcourse I won't be 'poking' religious texts in my childrens faces -- especially not the Bible - I don't think it is age appropriate at all - actually quite a few Atheists I have listened to have said reading the Bible in it's entirity or studying it to make it their career (eg a minister etc) is what actually made them declare their Atheism.
    My kids might grow up to have a passion for sport or dance and have no interest what so ever in learning about Religion...so no, no 'poking' ..but no putting it off limits either

    I had a book called 'The little book of bible stories' when I was a child... and whilst consider that much more age appropriate - I put it in the same category as other fable books with a moral at the end of the story.
    Putting it in a 'Religion vs Science' sense for this thread ---
    I recall a story about King Solomon, (in short) ..he was presented with one baby and two mothers claiming ownership... so he called for a sword and suggested the baby be cut in half. One woman stepped forward and said something along the lines of(sorry memory is fuzzy - I had the book when I was about 5) , 'No! No... Please Lord it is her baby give the baby to her!!' - the other woman declared, "divide it".
    So King Solomon KNEW the baby belonged to the woman who was willing to give it up.

    --- Whilst that is a nice warm fuzzy, emotional story.

    Science has a way of working out via DNA who a baby's true biological parent is.
    ..no need to draw a sword


    ..and I won't be 'poking' this book, 'The Magic of Reality' in my childrens faces either. (I actually bought it for myself - aswell as the adults version and childrens version of 'A short history of nearly everything' ..basically because I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and enjoy reading more simple explanations..plus the pictures help me undestand it ) ...The book with be there for times when my kids ask me various questions...

    Another chapter in the book covers 'the sun' --- it gives a few mythological stories at the start of the book. These stories mainly talk about the sun going 'Up & Down' ....Science has taught us that the Sun doesn't actually go up and down... Thanks to the 'Theory of Relativity' we know understand that it is the Earth rotation that makes it appear that way.
    --- I can't imagine there would be many people alive today that dipute the fact that the Earth rotates (how we get night and day) and that it Orbits around the Sun.
    That is "Reality".

    And yep - there is a chapter that talk about 'who was the first person?' ..again it covers MANY creation stories (not just the Judeo-Christian myth) ...and then talks about the evidence people have found (a lot of this evidence was only discovered in the late 1800's...so you put that in perspective, together with the fact that studies of DNA have only been around since teh early 1950's ~ OFCOURSE science and most of it's discoveries are still in the 'controversial' stage when comparing them alongside various Religious beliefs) ...ooops - where was I? ...ummm - yep, found evidence that links humans to other primates.
    It explains 'The First Human' is truly hard to pinpoint because of the way evolution works.
    Just the same as you can't say there was a 'first rabbit' ..because evolution doesn't produce totally different offspring of a certain species from a parent of a different species...it is a gradual process.

    And it is because we have evidence (both fossils and DNA) of this in the natural world that I (personally) prefer my children learning this information.
    [pretty sure the Pope and many Catholics 'accept' Evolution these days]
    ..not sure of the percenatge of people that 'believe' fossils are there because either "God is testing us'' or "the Devil put them there"?

    Listen, I appreciate Religion and how it works, I understand why it is in our modern socities and believe it contributes a great deal to culture.
    I just don't think it is neccessary to 'follow it' -- I can study it, undestand it, gain perspective from various people and their various interpretations of the same book of Holy Scriptures.

    The only way I see Science and Religion in the same category is that BOTH are trying to explain the things we see and experience around us. Religion takes it to a 'supernatural' (untouchable, must have 'faith' [belief without evidence]) level...and Science explores the 'natural' (what we can touch, and investigate [with evidence]) level.
    To things we don't have answers for; Science leaves the question 'open' - furthering investigation. Religion answers it with 'God did it' (sorry, but I personally find that stifling)

    I do understand and appreciate that many people find comfort and security in their chosen Religion and obviously this is why these threads often get heated and emotional.

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  4. #133
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    ...apologies for the essay

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    I don't see it as heavy reading but that's probably coz I'm immersed in Catholicism from the schools I've been in, the masses I attend and the people (family) I'm surrounded by.
    However, it is a children's bible which I will be reading. Very simple.
    I dare say there are children's versions of the Koran etc as well.

    But I digress, I won't be reading from any of the religious texts. I don't feel the need to as we go over the core beliefs of each religion.

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    My MIL is Irish, so obviously catholic. She bought my daughter a Noah's Ark story book. It's nice and colourful with a rainbow, so it interested my daughter. Anyway, I didn't mind it, because I can just say it's a story like any other book she has, but I was mortified when i first started reading it to her because the first page or so says how god told Noah to build an ark because he was going to punish all the wicked people in the world. If she asks me to read the book, I skip that sentence.

    Totally wrong and inappropriate for a children's book.

    We have Christian friends, Hindu friends, Muslim friends, atheist friends, so I don't feel I need to teach my children anything about religion until they ask.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    Totally wrong and inappropriate for a children's book.
    I have allowed my DD to attend scripture, partly bc there is no other option and all the kids do it and I don't want her on her own. Partly bc until a month ago it was harmless colouring in and very basic and 'soft' religious beliefs. But then DD brought home an Easter pamphlet at the end of last term... saying Jesus died on the cross so that god didn't punish us for being sinful by him not being friends with us. It just gave me a yucky feeling and I'm still deciding what you do about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    My MIL is Irish, so obviously catholic. She bought my daughter a Noah's Ark story book. It's nice and colourful with a rainbow, so it interested my daughter. Anyway, I didn't mind it, because I can just say it's a story like any other book she has, but I was mortified when i first started reading it to her because the first page or so says how god told Noah to build an ark because he was going to punish all the wicked people in the world. If she asks me to read the book, I skip that sentence.

    Totally wrong and inappropriate for a children's book.

    We have Christian friends, Hindu friends, Muslim friends, atheist friends, so I don't feel I need to teach my children anything about religion until they ask.
    Yeh I get that but traditional fairy tales are just as bad ! I was reading DS snow white the other day and those wicked step mothers ( sleeping beauty, snow white etc) are just nasty , so I started to skip the " let's poison snow white with an apple because she's prettier than me" bit too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elijahs Mum View Post
    Yeh I get that but traditional fairy tales are just as bad ! I was reading DS snow white the other day and those wicked step mothers ( sleeping beauty, snow white etc) are just nasty , so I started to skip the " let's poison snow white with an apple because she's prettier than me" bit too!
    ...ahhh - but the thing is most people recognise 'traditional fairy tales' as being 'fantasy'.

    but the difference here is that a great number of people teach the bible stories to be truth.

    And the 'nasty witch' in Snow White is proven to be 'the bad guy' and once her plan is foiled, everyone lives happily ever after.

    ..but in the bible story the 'dude who sends big flood to wipe out humanity' is the supposed 'good guy' who they need to obey..to live happily forever after.
    Last edited by FiveInTheBed; 22-04-2012 at 19:48.

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  11. #139
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    Hey Five...
    I'm glad you liked my term "poking" lol

    Back in Solomon's day there was no DNA testing so obviously that wasn't a choice... so second best was to split the baby and do it the way u described in your post.. lol... I'm sure if Sol was around today he would have gone for the DNA testing as I would if ever it was necessary...

    Science is cool and is naturally a part of everyday life and we Christians embrace is... Afterall it is our havenly Father who bestowed such intelligence upon us mere mortals so that we may explore our environment and understand it better

    I do understand ur fairytale view of God as you have possibly not had the same spiritual experiences as some of us... Your spirituality is formed not purely by the school you went to or your parents beliefs.. It's does start off this way for some but it grows and develops and it's very real and personal/different for each one.. and I don't see it as indoctrination or brainwashing at all. I feel the power of God burning deep within me and have a sense of God around me... but I don't expect you to understand that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    Hey Five...
    I'm glad you liked my term "poking" lol

    Back in Solomon's day there was no DNA testing so obviously that wasn't a choice... so second best was to split the baby and do it the way u described in your post.. lol... I'm sure if Sol was around today he would have gone for the DNA testing as I would if ever it was necessary...

    Science is cool and is naturally a part of everyday life and we Christians embrace is... Afterall it is our havenly Father who bestowed such intelligence upon us mere mortals so that we may explore our environment and understand it better

    I do understand ur fairytale view of God as you have possibly not had the same spiritual experiences as some of us... Your spirituality is formed not purely by the school you went to or your parents beliefs.. It's does start off this way for some but it grows and develops and it's very real and personal/different for each one.. and I don't see it as indoctrination or brainwashing at all. I feel the power of God burning deep within me and have a sense of God around me... but I don't expect you to understand that...
    -- no King Solo did not have the technology in his day, and this is my point - so much more has been discovered and learnt that I think the bible stories have their place in historical mythology, but do not 'explain' how things really work.
    Another story from that book I remember was the 'Plagues of Locusts' - the people of that time thought 'God' sent them to punish people, but we know now (thanks to observations made in science) that due to the cycles of weather affect growth of plant population and also growth of insect colonies - and quite often after floods or droughts - insect populations can have a massive 'boom'.

    ..but then again, you DO still have people out there that believe 'God' Controls the weather and sends tornadoes and bushfires to 'punish people'

    ...'Modern day christians' embrace science

    it wasn't always the way throughout history.
    I mentioned before in another post about the position of the sun and how we all know that the Earth orbits around the sun.
    This "idea" was once 'contrary to scripture passages'
    "Biblical references Psalm 93:1, 96:10, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 include text stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved." In the same manner, Psalm 104:5 says, "the Lord set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Further, Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place" etc"
    ...you might want to look up "Galileo" to read about what went on in the 1600's



    I don't want to dismiss your spiritual experience.
    And you were wrong to assume I haven't experienced anything like it


    where we differ is you give your experience the name 'God, your heavenly Father'... which is fine by me, and I'm quite happy to leave the discussion there unless you wish to continue
    [may I take the opportunity to point out here that you say it's NOT indoctrination or influence from your family -- I disagree...because had you been born in another country - you would be giving your spiritual experience totally different name, and you may even believe that there are more 'family members' in those supposed 'heavens']

    ...and I understand mine (and yes I've had a few 'moments' in my lifetime.) to be a chemical reaction in my body...serotonin, dopamine and endorphines etc pumping through my body that create certain visual and physical effects.

    Funny thing in these threads, is quite often people choose to distance themselves from 'religion' and play the 'spirituality' card...
    Which is fine by me -- I actually have more, respect, you could say ...for an "Agnostic Theist" who thinks that 'maybe' there is a 'higher power' out there beyond the cosmos - but doesn't give it a name, nor expect that it has laid down a law to follow.



    Rocker, can you tell me when you had your first 'spiritual experience'?
    and if it was before or after you were introduced to the idea of a God?
    ..sorry - I'm conversing with you and am not sure if you take the Bible 'literally' or 'metaphorically'.


    Oh - and can I point out a didn't refer to God as a "fairy tale" - I was commenting on a post that compared the two.
    But I do put the Bible in the same basket as say the Ancient Egyptians Mythology...an important piece of history.


 

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