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  1. #211
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    On the Dr Bailey thing, I actually don't think you would need to believe in 'evolution' to know that humans are more closely related to some primates than others. It was a poor decision on his part, and I know it was him who made the link with evolution, but I can imagine most doctors who do believe in the creation (as it is described in the bible) would be able to see that we are more closely related to other primates than the one he chose.

    I think the biggest issue here is the ethics of the whole operation and how he went about it rather than his personal views on evolution.

    I also think its quite rude and ethnocentric to suggest that anyone who doesn't agree with *your* view on how the world started is possibly dangerous. I would bet my left arm that 99% of Christians with access to scientific info would not dispute that viruses and bacteria evolve etc. I really don't think thats a real concern. It doesn't hurt anyone if individuals believe that humans were created seperately to animals, this does not deny that animals, people, whatever evolve to adapt to their environment at all.

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  3. #212
    Witwicky's Avatar
    Witwicky is offline A closed mouth gathers no foot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annabella View Post
    On the Dr Bailey thing, I actually don't think you would need to believe in 'evolution' to know that humans are more closely related to some primates than others. It was a poor decision on his part, and I know it was him who made the link with evolution, but I can imagine most doctors who do believe in the creation (as it is described in the bible) would be able to see that we are more closely related to other primates than the one he chose.

    I think the biggest issue here is the ethics of the whole operation and how he went about it rather than his personal views on evolution.

    I also think its quite rude and ethnocentric to suggest that anyone who doesn't agree with *your* view on how the world started is possibly dangerous. I would bet my left arm that 99% of Christians with access to scientific info would not dispute that viruses and bacteria evolve etc. I really don't think thats a real concern. It doesn't hurt anyone if individuals believe that humans were created seperately to animals, this does not deny that animals, people, whatever evolve to adapt to their environment at all.
    The fact of the matter is that he could have chosen a closer animal in order to avoid the possibility of immune rejection, but chose not to because he does not believe in evolution and thus rejects scientific proof in this respect. This is a human life we are talking about here, and yes the entire situation itself was unethical, but let's focus on the point I am making.

    It's an example that those who reject evolution work in society potentially to our detriment. He is a creationist who has openly admitted that he did not use a closer animal because there is no such thing as evolution (close genetic relations etc).

    If someone with these beliefs transfer their total and complete rejection of evolution to their work, in a situation where it causes harm, then yes it is dangerous. It just takes one person, we don't need a million examples - baby Fae is dead. That's enough to prove the danger.

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    With respect to her family, I believe she was going to die anyway. I am not at all saying there is anything remotely ok about the situation, and I recognise it was he personally that stated his views on evolution in response to a question about why he didn't choose a closer relative. But the whole scenario was wrong, there is no way that an animal's heart should ever be transplanted into a human's body without extensive ethical consideration, but it was in this case.

    All I am saying is that for me and many others- I don't for a minute believe that humans and primates were ever one and the same. This does not stop me from recognising that we are much closer to a chimpanzee than a baboon (or whatever animals they were) genetically. I don't need to accept that we all originated from one cell to recognise that, thats all.

    I refuse to accept that my belief affects you in any way. Thats all I'm saying.

  5. #214
    Witwicky's Avatar
    Witwicky is offline A closed mouth gathers no foot.
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    No-one is able to say she would have died anyway. The point people are trying to make is that the outcome could have been very different if he looked at it from an evolutionary perspective and actually accepted the science behind it. I think it's a perfect example of the potential issues that can and do arise regarding this topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witwicky View Post
    Dr. Leonard Bailey is an American surgeon who performed a heart transplant on a baby ("Baby Fae") who had a serious heart defect. He placed the heart of a baboon (!) into her chest and she died shortly after.
    I first came across this case while debating the ethics of xenotransplantation at uni and was fairly horrified with what I found, to say the least.

    The attempt at a xenotransplant (cross species) procedure on an infant was completely unethical in itself, however one of the most concerning aspects was his choice of animal.

    During an interview following the death, Dr Bailey was questioned as to why he had used a baboon's heart due to its evolutionary distance from humans compared to other primates. His response was (direct quote) - "Er, I find that difficult to answer. You see, I don’t believe in evolution.”



    This is an example of how rejection of evolution concerns me and others in the community.
    Most interesting, however it doesn't sound like his views on creationism/ evolution affected
    a) his choice of animal or
    b) the outcome of the case

    I have an interview with him some university did (will grab the link if anyone's interested, it's on my phone somewhere) where he said he had ruled out using a primate such as chimpanzees, orangutangs or gorillas because they were endangered.

    Fair enough. For him to be able to pick an animal that would give the best match he needed to find something that was readily available to give him a large enough donor pool that he could give the infant the best shot- and baboons were readily available.

    Sure. We could get into the ethics of whether or not he should have done a cross - species transplant. I don't think that's got anything to do with evolution....

    Hypoplastic left heart syndrome, even today, is fatal without a series of major surgeries or heart transplant. He got permission to do this surgery in the first place because this infant had been discharged home to die- so I think it's a pretty fair statement to say the infant would have died whether or not the operation had gone ahead. And if I had been her parents I might very well have said yes to a new procedure that would have given her a shot at life as well however small...regardless of the ethics.

    I'm personally grateful for people like this who did the groundwork to turn heart transplantation into what it is today!

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  8. #216
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    http://www.llu.edu/news/babyfae/leon...interview.page

    Interview with him if anyone's interested.

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    The proportion of scientists who have faith and are creationists is actually quite small. Like 1%ish. Don't ask for the reference though because it was a figure held during a talk by as astrophysicist.

    Also the beliefs of religious people affect the lives of the non religious around the world every day. Th issue of gay marriage is the first one that springs to mind.

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  11. #218
    Made in England's Avatar
    Made in England is offline thought it was about time I put something other than 'senior member'...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ana Gram View Post
    Also the beliefs of religious people affect the lives of the non religious around the world every day. Th issue of gay marriage is the first one that springs to mind.
    I agree with this 100%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ana Gram View Post
    The proportion of scientists who have faith and are creationists is actually quite small. Like 1%ish. Don't ask for the reference though because it was a figure held during a talk by as astrophysicist.

    Also the beliefs of religious people affect the lives of the non religious around the world every day. Th issue of gay marriage is the first one that springs to mind.
    The beliefs of non religious people also effect the world. All the murderers, rapists, paedophiles etc etc effect the world very negatively because they are not treating others as Jesus would have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnyflower View Post
    The beliefs of non religious people also effect the world. All the murderers, rapists, paedophiles etc etc effect the world very negatively because they are not treating others as Jesus would have.
    Are you saying that all murderers, rapists, pedophiles etc. don't believe in Jesus?

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