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  1. #341
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    **crazy obssessed with this debate person entering here)
    as the other thread got closed - I just wanted to pop in here to clarify with Lily.

    (please don't close this threads mods - delete my post if need be though)

    I considered sending a PM - but considered that could be taken the wrong way.

    1 - 'jess' ..was a typo - I was on my phone and have fat finger syndrome and didn't check auto correct - 'the' was the word that should have been in it's place.

    2 - I actually [whether you believe me or not) 'appreciate' your metaphorical take on 'Adam' being 'Man' [plural] once he started cultivating the soil.
    Each time I posted - I was trying to make sure I understood you correctly.
    You stated you believe evolution happened and genisis was a great attempt to describe this without extra knowledge.
    I was not expecting you to support 'my' argument - Iwas asking you to support 'yours.

    3- The thread was NOT a bait thread, it was a 'DEBATE' thread (stated in teh OP) it was started out of respect for SAB's thread and this one- so not to take them off track. But yes it was clear the arguments when presented wre to be 'dismantled' ..it's the only way (I think) someone can gain perspective when debating from the other side.
    I considered you a 'worthy opponent' in a debate as you seemed to have put a lot of thought into your statement.

    4 - It was NOT an attack on your faith, plenty of poeple stated they have faith AND understand evolution.

    5 - I did not mock you. I will not admit to mocking you.. it was NOT what I did.
    I may have 'hounded' you or repeated my question to you- they same way a child may continually ask their parent...'why...?'

    6 - You'll be glad to know I have an incredible busy week - and probably won't be on BH...so therefore wil be 'moving on'.
    It's disppointing these debates need to reduced to what they did -- instead of, discussing, even heatedly what each side has to offer and then agreeing to disagree.


    7- this post was probably 'not needed' ..but I wanted my right of reply.


    Take care.
    Last edited by FiveInTheBed; 05-03-2012 at 08:11.

  2. #342
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    Des, I has the same thing.
    when my son had an asthma attack, I was asked how my prayer life
    was going..
    it made me feel guilty and lazy!!

    I remember crying to my pastor and he said.. i needed to pray, not cry.

    Then the head guys wife died, and they all said that sometimes we cant change God's plan.
    i was so damn confused!!



    sent from brain to Iphone to BubHub~ a game of chinese whispers.

  3. #343
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    For the record Five I think you've been polite. I'm having trouble understanding some of the creationist beliefs also, and I want to understand (but maybe not agree) as I find the subject very interesting.

    Can we not have this closed too ladies?

    and I also wanted to say I have not mocked creationist beliefs and just seek to understand. There has been some very rude comments by those believing in evolution that have ruined the discussions but.... some defensiveness too. There's certain topics on the thread that really bring out the worst in me bc I'm so sensitive about them. So I try not to enter them. I'm not saying creationists shouldn't enter these debates, in fact quite the opposite. But if any topic makes a member really upset and defensive I would say keep out for your own sanity.

    I find it difficult to understand how dinosaurs and humans lived together. Carbon dating clearly shows millions of years between them and humans, and dinosaurs have lived for millions of years. Do I think it's funny? no I respect that belief I just don't understand that conclusion

    and I wanted to add...maybe we will never understand. Faith by nature is one by which you put stock in something you can't feel and touch. That's what faith is. Many of us see the world in scientific evidence based way so we may never comprehend faith. Maybe there's simply a divide too big to find common ground?
    Last edited by delirium; 05-03-2012 at 08:30.

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerylsMum View Post
    Des, I has the same thing.
    when my son had an asthma attack, I was asked how my prayer life
    was going..
    it made me feel guilty and lazy!!

    I remember crying to my pastor and he said.. i needed to pray, not cry.

    Then the head guys wife died, and they all said that sometimes we cant change God's plan.
    i was so damn confused!!



    sent from brain to Iphone to BubHub~ a game of chinese whispers.
    No it's really awful hey. You don't do that to people who are suffering!

    Maybe there's simply a divide too big to find common ground?
    Yes I think so..,,even amongst creationists there are differing interpretations and beliefs.

  5. #345
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    Five in the Bed.
    It was late, I was on my phone and I'm blind as a bat so I couldn't see my screen. When you asked the questions I kept refering you back to my post because I did write exactly what I thought there. I couldn't paste, quote, etc. If you had repeated what I had written exactly and further asked the question, I would have kept talking to you. But I felt like you were acting like you didn't know what I was saying or you couldn't read it and then made up quotes.
    The first thing you said was "I thought you believed in creationism literally" When my post wasn't even close to that, so I couldn't understand what you were getting at, hence why I kept telling you to read what I had written.
    Then you said "you said something about apes" umm no I said more than that which was clear in my post.
    You asked, what do you think came before Adam. In my post I had said:
    As for man evolving from apes. I'm not sure. I do believe in evolution, but I also don't believe 100% in scientific theories.
    Then I asked questions.
    I've seen alot about new discoveries in fossils and missing links in the chronology of ape to man but were these species seperate to humans? Are humans their own species that evolved individually? Its all possible.
    New discoveries as in, things like 'Lucy' Our supposed ancient ancestor where ape started to walk. I also asked perhaps before modern man (adam) it was still man, as in maybe we're our own seperate specie not associated to apes at all like evolution believes. I don't know, they were questions. I said its all possible and they're discovering new things all the time.

    I think I was pretty self explanatory and I didn't want to re-write something I had already said. So I couldn't understand why you kept at it and then kept saying "I don't know what you said, you said something about something"
    ?? It didn't seem like you were genuine. And I don't want to discuss things with people I don't feel comfortable with. Otherwise I had alot more to say, different ideas I had, I think the topic is very interesting, not just from a bible perspective, but scientifically.
    And yes, the pyramid analogy, to you it may be stupid, I don't know why, maybe because you didn't initially understand it. But if you had taken it seriously it could have been an interesting discussion about ancient civilisations and their architecture.

    I'm off aswell, Ive spent too much time these last couple of days and I'm moving so no internet for a while.
    Last edited by Lily of the Nile; 05-03-2012 at 09:11.

  6. #346
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    Thanks for replying Lily.

    from memory I had thought you said you took the translations of the bible 'literally' in other threads. That's why your metaphorical interpretation threw me and I asked more.
    I listened to the Arch Bishop of Cantebury debate the other night, and he said he believes that human ancestors were indeed non human. [but he did not expand other than - divine itervention from God gave 'man' a working conscience/ a soul and THAT s what sets us apart]
    I assumed you were of a simialr train of thought and was curious.

    I now understand you were asking question as you are unsure - rather than putting forward an argument for what that metaphor was for.

    Sorry.

    As for 'lucy' that is the name given to an incomplete skeleton, they don't even know if it was female or male.

    'I' understand ALL skeletal remains to not be proof for a 'direct link' as such...but more parts of the puzzle of our past.

    Take care.


    *must go grocery shopping now *
    Last edited by FiveInTheBed; 05-03-2012 at 09:26.

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveInTheBed View Post
    Thanks for replying Lily.

    from memory I had thought you said you took the translations of the bible 'literally' in other threads. That's why your metaphorical interpretation threw me and I asked more.
    I listened to the Arch Bishop of Cantebury debate the other night, and he said he believes that human ancestors were indeed non human. [but he did not expand other than - divine itervention from God gave 'man' a working conscience/ a soul and THAT s what sets us apart]
    I assumed you were of a simialr train of thought and was curious.

    I now understand you were asking question as you are unsure - rather than putting forward an argument for what that metaphor was for.

    Sorry.

    As for 'lucy' that is the name given to an incomplete skeleton, they don't even know if it was female or male.

    'I' understand ALL skeletal remains to not be proof for a 'direct link' as such...but more parts of the puzzle of our past.

    Take care.


    *must go grocery shopping now *
    I'm of the understanding that the major religions don't reject science and see science as part of our existance and there to be studied. They won't however altar the word of God for it (if that makes sense)
    I don't take everything in the bible literally, I never said I do, maybe some things, not all. The bible is huge and complex and has metaphors and is open for interpretation, its why christianity is the most debated religion and why there are so many branches to it.

    I do think there are creationsists out there, I don't think they're of main****** religion, and if they are they're individual. Remember, creationists are also interpreting the bible. For example, man living with dinosaurs? Dinosaurs being wiped off at time of Noahs Ark, the world being 6000 yrs old. Where in genesis does it say that? Time in the bible is interprative because time is not the same as ours.
    Some people take Adam and Eve as the very 1st man and woman specie? on earth, that we came from dirt, that woman was made of adams rib.
    Evolution says we evolved from something else.
    If we did and this is proven, do we reject the story of adam and eve altogether? Before we evolved to man, we weren't, could Adam have been the first person that evolved? The taking of his rib as a metaphor for a woman? Could the story of Eve and the serpent be a metaphor for human conscience setting us apart from everything else?
    EVen when it says woman were cursed with infertility and labour pangs, do animals, apes etc. have the same labour pangs as we do? The same infertitilty issues? Something sets us apart, perhaps the story of Adam and Eve was just that, trying to tell us about the beginning of man (not ape) and evolving from something isn't necessary to understand our human nature??? I don't know.
    Anyway. This could go on forever

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily of the Nile View Post
    I'm of the understanding that the major religions don't reject science and see science as part of our existance and there to be studied. They won't however altar the word of God for it (if that makes sense)
    I don't take everything in the bible literally, I never said I do, maybe some things, not all. The bible is huge and complex and has metaphors and is open for interpretation, its why christianity is the most debated religion and why there are so many branches to it.

    I do think there are creationsists out there, I don't think they're of main****** religion, and if they are they're individual. Remember, creationists are also interpreting the bible. For example, man living with dinosaurs? Dinosaurs being wiped off at time of Noahs Ark, the world being 6000 yrs old. Where in genesis does it say that? Time in the bible is interprative because time is not the same as ours.
    Some people take Adam and Eve as the very 1st man and woman specie? on earth, that we came from dirt, that woman was made of adams rib.
    Evolution says we evolved from something else.
    If we did and this is proven, do we reject the story of adam and eve altogether? Before we evolved to man, we weren't, could Adam have been the first person that evolved? The taking of his rib as a metaphor for a woman? Could the story of Eve and the serpent be a metaphor for human conscience setting us apart from everything else?
    EVen when it says woman were cursed with infertility and labour pangs, do animals, apes etc. have the same labour pangs as we do? The same infertitilty issues? Something sets us apart, perhaps the story of Adam and Eve was just that, trying to tell us about the beginning of man (not ape) and evolving from something isn't necessary to understand our human nature??? I don't know.
    Anyway. This could go on forever
    I definitely agree with the first part of your post - re the variations and different interpretations.

    as for the first man/first woman thing -- I don't claim to know what actually came first in regards to gender.
    I love that there are other complex oragnisms out their that don't actually need a female and a male to breed. The Leopard slug has both sex organs. There is a particular type of worm that actually doesn't 'mate' as such - it simply (simply is waaay the wrong word to use, because I doubt it is that 'simple') reproduces offspring as 'clones' of itself inside itself - the offspring feeds on the 'mother' when they emerge - 'she' is no more.
    It is something I would like to look further into though - re 'man/gender'

    I don't know if people look at Evolution as a process of getting to something that is a 'finished product' ??
    Because, for me we are no more a 'finished product' than the other life we see around us at the moment - nothing as 'stopped' in the process of evolution - it is still on a roll.

    Re labour pangs... I have watched a doco [steve irwin - faces in the forest or something ..'I think' eeek..I can't remember] ..he observes a young female Orangutan in late pregnancy... so many similarities...I've seen images of other primates holding on to their still born baby, in a way 'we' may do if we were greivng. Many mammals go off for what we would consider to be 'privacy' (I see it as a survival skill - who wants to be out in the open giving birth to vunerable young!?..especially if they could be seen as prey to a predator..this is where 'I' see those innate urges stemming from.


    It s VERY ineteresting indeed - and could most definitely go on and on..the more you find out the more you want to know

  9. #349
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    Any one not familiar with Bonobos... please watch this short clip - and tell me what you see??

    It is really ...ermm.. cute!


    Bonobos have sex for pleasure - just lke we do..they use it to resolve conflict, just as we do.
    They have concealed ovulation just as we do (so sex isn't ONLY for reproduction - like most other animal species)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82GUj...eature=related

    This isn't CGI - this is real footage

  10. #350
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    I'm suprised (but glad!) that this thread is still open.... well done, ladies - we've done well to keep it open and nice for so long!

    I was just reading in the buddhist thread that some people mentioned that they like the buddhist faith because they are encouraged to think for themselves, not just blindly accept and follow like 'other religions' expect you to (I assume by other religions, they were probably referring to Christianity.)

    It got me thinking, and I was wondering if any of the people in here who do follow a religion (Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, or anything else!) do feel that it is something that they are expected to follow along blindly? I know that those who grew up in a cult would probably have a different persepective, because from my limited knowledge, I think that in most cults, you are expected to blindly follow. But for me, and my experience with Christianity so far (the last 27 years I have never felt that I am expected to 'blindly follow' as a Christian. I'd be interested to hear if others experiences are the same?

    For me, I grew up in a church-going family. Each week, we would listen to the sermon, participate in the music, etc. and then come home and discuss the morning – what did you think of what the pastor spoke about? Did you agree when he said this? How else could that have been interpreted? Etc. What did you think about this new song? Do you feel that it’s purpose is to bring glory to God, or to glorify ourselves? Etc.

    So, I always feel like christianity was something that I don’t ‘blindly accept’. I think, discuss, and question. It’s the same with the bible – many churches do bible studies, in which they discuss (similarly, I guess, to how it has been on BH the last few days!) different passages in the bible, what it could mean, how else we could interpret it, did God mean it literally, what is the original Hebrew word, how else could we translate that, etc. So, again, the bible isn’t something I have been taught to blindly accept at face value. I study, analyze, question.

    I’m really interested with the notion that Christianity is something where people blindly accept what they are fed, because that has really not been the case for me in my life. If anyone else has similar or different experiences with your religion/ beliefs, I’d be interested to hear them! I think Elijah's mum mentioned earlier that her Jewish grandma always encouraged them to question the bible, so perhaps others have experiences similar to mine.





    (By the way, I feel funny every time I use the word ‘religion’ – because my faith is not a ‘religion’, it is a personal relationship with God – but I do describe it as religion when speaking in a context like this one, because I feel it is easily understood by everyone what I am talking about!)

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Cinderella82 For This Useful Post:

    TheMadHatter  (05-03-2012)


 

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