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  1. #241
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    ..anyway - I'm off tp take teh kids to meet their soccer coach.

    I'm seriously nterested in what people's thoughts are on the 'context' I mentioned.
    I think it fits quite well into a thread titled 'translations of the bible'

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regina Phalange View Post
    but Des has thrown me by saying that some scriptures say that it is neccesary! Do you have any examples Deserema?
    The scripture that reads,that one needs to believe and be baptised. I know that the other scriptures pertaining to baptism are refering to a 'spiritual' baptism. Everything physical that we needed to do for salvation has now become spiritual through our Lord Jesus Christ. But the scripture above (I think found in Acts) alludes to the physical. Although that was when the new covenant first came in so possibly people still learning what that meant. Not sure. I'm still leaning towards baptism being spiritual, water baptism being symbolic (not necessary though).

    Quote Originally Posted by Regina Phalange View Post
    That does make sense, and I think that it is sometimes really helpful to our faith to do 'symbolic' things... whether we believe that they are neccessary for salvation, or whether we believe that we would still be saved regardless, but we just want to demonstrate an aspect our faith, etc, I know that it can be helpful to do symbolic things to demonstrate what we believe in.

    Sometimes, too, I believe that God doesn't see things as 'neccesary', but it is beneficial for our own heart condition. For example, I believe that all of my sins were forgiven on the cross, so I don't need to sit here every day and list my sins and say 'God, please forgive me for this and this and that'. He has already forgiven me, I don't need to ask for forgiveness. But sometimes, I do say, 'God, I feel like I have failed in this particular area. I know I have sinned. Please forgive me, and help me to become more christ-like in my character'. Although I don't believe I 'need’ to do that, symbolically, I am submitting myself to Christ, having a contrite heart, recognising where I need to change, etc.

    Soooo…. Not meaning to digress, but…. Yes, I do see the value in doing symbolic things in your faith, and if infant baptism is an important symbol to you, I think that’s great
    This I agree with


    Quote Originally Posted by FiveInTheBed View Post
    Also - I'd like to know people's perssonal definition of BELIEVE - Is it that these are stories from your own personal family line and that's what you turn to for guidence when it comes to difficult parts of life?
    Or is it 'truth' -- even the word 'truth' can be interpretted differently ...for one it might mean 'this is simply important to me' to another it might mean 'this actually happened it is FACT'
    I believe that one only needs to believe in God/Christ. Believing or 'getting right' any other parts of the bible - stories, prophecies, parables etc is not necessary for salvation. If all one ever does is believe in Christ then they will be saved. That's why you'll find a lot of people say that it won't make any difference to them, because their faith is a living breathing thing....it is what we live. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen. That is ALL we need for salvation.....understanding any other part of the bible as we go along....is a bonus really. A lot of what is in the bible helps us to see the bigger picture, it can help us in our faith and God can reveal whatever he wants through any particular passage to help us in our walk.

    Quote Originally Posted by BabushkaMumma View Post
    What I was trying to get to - is that to feel comfortable about the questions that have no answer, you have to have a few starting beliefs - like a belief in God, a belief in his power, ability to do things unseen and powerful. With those starting points, you build on your faith and come to accept not everything is revealed, just like any relationship. But the things that are essential to the progression and success of that relationship are revealed and are sufficient enough to built on it securely.
    Yeh I believe that having faith in God as a starting point is the biggest thing. Without it, it's like reading somebody elses mail....it's 'folly' to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkingClassMum View Post
    Revival Centres International - now called something else similar
    Working Class Mum - The cult that I was brought up into was also the Revival Centres International, I also tried a stint in the Revival fellowship in later years. My mother, two brothers, Aunt and cousins are still in the RF. They have a lot to answer for! They've ruined lives! And I've had to strip everything away that they taught me and start from scratch they indoctrinated me so much that when I left (at the age of 19) I firmly believed that I was going to hell...if nothing else, but just by leaving the 'church' and 'falling away' (which I never did -might I add).

    [text deleted by moderator]
    Last edited by BH-KatiesMum; 03-03-2012 at 13:53. Reason: personal/off topic - please see my post at #178

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveInTheBed View Post
    People keep saying 'context' - if you want 'context' ..go and have a look at the link someone provided earlier re Noah's family line.
    (I've quoted it and been ignored)

    THIS is context. people of that time, in that culture saw the 'world' as that tiny piece pictured in teh map.
    They put together writings of people from that time to try and make law of their land.

    If you want to talk about understanding things in context...SEE that IN context.

    The Bible has been taking over time - OUT of context ...and people have tried to deliver it to people across those borders as their knowledge of the 'outside world' grew.
    When I mentioned the Australian marsupials and someone said it wasn't in teh bble - god must have left it out for a reason. How about look at it this way..it was 'left out' because the people who wrote it knew nothing OF Australia it was not part of the"World" of which they speak.


    Re Noah again. If you want to talk logically. YEs there may have been a flood, there have been floods all over the world over time - we experienced a MASSIVE flood in Queensland last year that was horrific. Had teh people in Queensland not know of people and land beyond their borders - they may have beleived the whle world had flooded.

    yep - context.

    Lilith was left out of the Bible by the men who gathered the 60 odd books at teh time, they turned these 'myths' into a 'law' ..(Adam was mentioned in these myths too )
    It was an attempt to have women be submissive to man...read the original vows in a traditional christian wedding. (ofcourse they've been updated as people broke away an drealised how sexist these teachings were!)

    Listen...I am cool with people having 'faith' in 'something' ..I can't say with 100% of my knowledge what exists beyone the realm of what I can fathom with the brain that has evolved in my skull.
    Can't find the link (23 pages of posts at 7am is a bit too much to look through!) so if you wouldn't mind posting it again that would be lovely.

    Australian marsupials: Although it's not in the Bible I can think of many reasons why there might be several types not found anywhere else but Australia post flood.
    Don't forget the flood was massive- greater than anything the world had ever seen, covered the tops of the tallest mountains etc. That would have resulted in some interesting changes in climate/ where continents are/ tidal patterns post flood, etc, etc.
    It's possible a lot of marsupials ended up in Australia (over the course of several generations) - favourable climate, lack of predators. Could have come over a land bridge from Cape York/ PNG that has since closed. It's possible too that marsupials may have lived in other areas of the world and since become extinct. The North American opossum is a marsupial too I do believe. (These are just reasons off the top of my head).

    Reason you don't get answers to things like this in the Bible? Well it doesn't give answers to things eg. Why does your finger hurt when you drop a brick on it. The earlier books in the Old Testament give us a brief history of the world and the history of God's chosen people, the Jews- not an attempt to answer every question possible. Sure, I agree, I doubt the people who wrote the history books of the Bible were interested in animal migration patterns post Flood- and I don't really think it's necessary for our understanding of God and Jewish history that they're included either!

    I'm afraid I don't see why you claim the Bible is out of context. I find it perfectly relevant for our generation and culture.

    With Lilith- look, she's not mentioned in the Bible. You could pick any old myth and say 'why isn't it included in the Bible.' I think the reason why's pretty clear there! I really don't see why that point is still being argued!
    Not sure why wedding vows are being brought into this either or what point you're trying to make....
    Last edited by TheMadHatter; 03-03-2012 at 08:35.

  4. #244
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    Sorry Deserama, posted before I saw yours.

    I'm really quite disappointed- I thought this thread was a great idea, and was hoping for a nice discussion that I could learn something from other believers the tone of the thread had completely changed when I came back last night!

  5. #245
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    It still can be...if we ignore them! They are never EVER going to be satisified with any answers that we give. They never will, nor do they want to. So it doesn't matter what we say, they are never going to accept it, we know it and they know it! So no point discussing it - not at all. Just let them keep thinking that we are a bunch of crazies void of logical thinking - I really couldn't care less that they think that, I do care, however, that they wish to cause disruption to a nice thread started for the purpose of discussing various religious beliefs in context of the bible and the differing translations and interpretations.

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  7. #246
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    ALL things are possible with God. ALL!!!!! If one does not have faith in Him then they will be looking at the bible one way....and the rest of us through faith. We are on two totally different playing fields. One cannot compete with the other so there's no point in trying.

    Anyone only interested in saying how concerning, shocking and illogical our faith in the bible is - can leave! Start your own thread where you can run around patting each other on the back for being so great in not believing in God or the bible and you can be as concerned and shocked as you like. But not here! Not interested in arguing with people who are not interested in healthy discussion.

  8. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveInTheBed View Post
    ..anyway - I'm off tp take teh kids to meet their soccer coach.

    I'm seriously nterested in what people's thoughts are on the 'context' I mentioned.
    I think it fits quite well into a thread titled 'translations of the bible'
    Are talking about Lilith? I can't comment on that because I'm not familiar with it, but can you explain what you think? I'm not understanding your point of view regarding your questions?

  9. #248
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    What I find very interesting about the bible, testaments and other books that combine to make the stories widely referred in religion today is that it was all written by different people who were said to be speaking the word of god. Who is to know in this day and age which parts may hold some 'truth' and which parts are myth or ramblings of people full of self importance or are delusional.
    In this day and age there are still people who profess to talk the word of god and they are often ridiculed, suspected of mental illness or accused of fraud. Can you believe in the old words of god and not be open to new ones. An example

    The Age of Aquarius manifesting before us is the fulfillment of the Divine Plan, which promises to create a new heaven and a new earth. Awakening to unity with the one creative source, humans are to be the co-creators of an age of love, peace and abundance. Our consciousness is becoming one with the mind and heart of God. Assisting us is a hierarchy of Ascended Masters under the orchestration of St. Germain. Personal guides, angels, extraterrestrials and great luminous beings also help us. In the new millennium our perfected values will authorize us to create substance from light. We will become the promise of Jesus when he said, “Greater works than these shall you do.”
    In the new millennium we shall create magnificent temples to replace commonplace structures. The ordinary shall be exalted into the extraordinary. Communication with the devic kingdoms will help us design fantastic gardens and parks full of vibrant flowers and glorious trees. With our creative forces we will cultivate new species of plants and animals providing us with extraordinary beauty and spiritual nourishment. Colors will be brighter and more radiant. Our environment will become a celebration of life and wonder as we rediscover our knowledge and harmony with the elemental forces of fire, water, earth, air and space. The stars and solar forces of power will become available to us to birth and sustain a life of unlimited abundance and infinite creativity. We shall become as Gods, at play in the Elysium Fields!
    In the past we have had brief glimpses of Golden Ages. They existed because great beings and avatars illuminated particular areas of the planet. Legends arose of mysterious realms such as Atlantis, Lemuria, Shamballa and Shangri-la. They are visions of utopian culture. It is still possible to see the beautiful temples of Classical Greece, Ancient Egypt, and the opulence of Persia and marvel at the magnificent beauty and technology oftentimes surpassing modern times. Later, the art and culture of the Renaissance, especially in Italy, continued the legacy of grace. Sculptures and paintings exalted form and substance into divine elegance, celebrating the creative inspiration of humanity. The intricacies of Mayan and Aztec architecture remind us of our galactic origins and human potentiality. This new Golden Age is heralded as a permanent one where it is possible for every person to actualize their divine identity as sons and daughters of God. Humanity can step into a new arena of ease and elegance where struggle and strife are distant memories, powerless and ironic reminders of pettiness and limitation.
    In the new paradigm we shall experience one thousand years of peace, prosperity and abundance! We are the pioneers, the avatars and initiators of bringing heaven to earth. We are the harbingers of contact and contract with our galactic brothers and sisters in knowledge and evolution. Now is our opportunity to move beyond the familiar into the potentiality of the vibrant frequencies of light and life. Now is the time to realize we are the co-creative forces of life with the divine. As you believe, so shall it be! The time is now!
    There are a number of things written in this thread that are similar to this passage, what do people think about modern day prophets (if that's what you want to call them?)

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  11. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deserama View Post
    I believe that one only needs to believe in God/Christ. Believing or 'getting right' any other parts of the bible - stories, prophecies, parables etc is not necessary for salvation. If all one ever does is believe in Christ then they will be saved. That's why you'll find a lot of people say that it won't make any difference to them, because their faith is a living breathing thing....it is what we live. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen. That is ALL we need for salvation.....understanding any other part of the bible as we go along....is a bonus really. A lot of what is in the bible helps us to see the bigger picture, it can help us in our faith and God can reveal whatever he wants through any particular passage to help us in our walk.



    Yeh I believe that having faith in God as a starting point is the biggest thing. Without it, it's like reading somebody elses mail....it's 'folly' to them
    I agree with this, I think this is the part that's being missed by the questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by luvmyboys View Post
    What I find very interesting about the bible, testaments and other books that combine to make the stories widely referred in religion today is that it was all written by different people who were said to be speaking the word of god. Who is to know in this day and age which parts may hold some 'truth' and which parts are myth or ramblings of people full of self importance or are delusional.
    In this day and age there are still people who profess to talk the word of god and they are often ridiculed, suspected of mental illness or accused of fraud. Can you believe in the old words of god and not be open to new ones. An example


    There are a number of things written in this thread that are similar to this passage, what do people think about modern day prophets (if that's what you want to call them?)
    As christians we believe in Jesus. Muhammad came after Jesus and thats why you have Islam. If a new prophet comes then a new religion will be born, its up to the people who follow them but not up to christians. The word of God has already been spoken and Jesus our devine saviour has already come, this can't change and you can't get any higher devinity than Jesus Christ and everything he already came to do for us. You'd be a hypocrite as a christian to believe otherwise.

  12. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elijahs Mum View Post
    http://ldolphin.org/ntable.html

    Just found this link ( hope it works!) mentions all of Noah's descendants
    okay...this is the link I was talking about.

    If you scroll down you'll see a map it shows what people in the time of the Bible considered to be "THE WORLD".

    So when I ask about the Ark for example... it WOULD make sense to me if someone said, 'well in CONTEXT, it was written with the idea that the 'world' did not exist outside of those borders'

    THAT makes sense. But it's when it gets taken OUT of context and put into modern times.. to say there was a great flood that covered 'the world' - we imagine what WE know as the 'world' ...do you see what I mean?

    Me quoting that link and pointing that out actaully is in FAVOUR for your argument. Saying 'who knows?' and 'maybe god scattered other animals around to other countries for man to enjoy' ..doesn't actaully fit into the CONTEXT of the bible.


    So people may take it literally.... but you blow it out of proportion when you picture the WORLD as we know it today compared to what it was back then. That's NOT to say that the other parts of the globe didn't exist..it's just that the people who wrote the bible didn't know of it.

    I brought up the story of Lilith because I was interested to see who accepts teh Bible for simply what it is today and teh manner in which it is delivered OR who takes in ALL the mythology and stories of the time?
    But fine - if you don't wish to explore that, don't.


    Can I just say that I DO find it incredibly rude that the OP of this thread is commanding people to 'ignore them' regarding people - like myself who are trying to learn more... and share knowledge.
    I do actually know christians who accept evolution, who quite openly say they think the bible is basically a book of fables - but they can't deny the existence of 'something' as a force in our world, and they choose to look to the cultural idea of morals that have stemmed from these books to help them make decisions in life. I know one that think heaven and hell is a load of poop. But she still calls herself a christian, sends her children to a catholic school etc. It is for some people a lifestyle -- and THAT is what I (persoanlly - i can't speak for other people) am trying to understand.
    Would you turn to them and tell them to leave a conversation?

    THIS is what worries me to be honest about religion being 'taught' in schools.
    My kids are bascially being told - if you don't believe what we do ..get out!
    That, deserama is what you have just suggested.

    DPs cousin has the most strongest faith in God of ANYONE I know, she has been fighting cancer for teh last 5 years, even though she was told 5years ago that she had 6 months to live. The medical intervention she has had is unbelievable.
    Her faith gives her strength.I would NEVER think of attempting to deny her of that. but- she is an itelligent woman, and incredible woman - and if she chose to openly discuss the beginning of mankind - i would discuss that with her.


    'faith' is completely different to supporting teh notion that ALL men and women on Earth as WE know it came from a Hebrew family that got washed away during a storm.
    Last edited by FiveInTheBed; 03-03-2012 at 10:13.

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