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  1. #121
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    Witwicky is offline A closed mouth gathers no foot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    I didn't twist anything. I quoted exactly what you said and responded to it.



    I'm a psychologist I don't agree with you. They don't have 'unequal' brain functioning - they have immature brain functioning. That's not the same thing at all. And I suspect that the difference in philosophical approach toward children is what's causing the difference of opinion here. I believe that children are fully functioning human beings with more rights to be respected and protected than adults - who are actually capable, in the absence of disability, of standing up for themselves.



    I don't agree with your approach - I don't punish poor behaviour, I set boundaries around it. I also teach by modelling. If I want my children to behave respectfully, I behave respectfully toward them - and we talk about disrespectful behaviour when they aren't managing. If they continue to not be able to manage to achieve what's being modelled and explained to them, the stronger boundaries go into place - ie they're asked to remove themselves from company if they can't behave in a socially acceptable manner.

    However, that's actually all besides the point. What this man did was not punishment - it was public humiliation. It wasn't boundary setting - it was tantrum throwing. He did not intent to teach her a lesson, he intended to hurt her in the exact manner and fashion that he had himself been hurt by her. She modelled his behaviour - exactly - and then was punished for behaving in the exact way which she had been taught to behave - by the person who had taught her to behave that way.

    How is it that a child can know what 'respectful behaviour' is if they've never had somebody behave respectfully toward them?



    Again, I did not manipulate anything - I quoted exactly what you wrote, and responded to it. If you find that offensive, I suggest that you engage in some self-reflection.
    I agree with Tam.

    It reminds me of when people hit their child because the child hit another child. Erm? It's obvious what the father's intent was.
    Last edited by Veve; 12-02-2012 at 23:16. Reason: reference to specific bubhubber

  2. #122
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    Maybe it was a lesson in thinking? I've told kids quite often that if they hit me with their toy again, I would take it, break it and then it would go in the rubbish. And that is EXACTLY what I did. The child was old enough to know better than to hit me with anything and after repeatedly asking them to stop, they didn't, so I followed through with exactly what I said I was going to. Apparently, this wasn't the first time she had posted something disrespectful and slanderous and being at the end of his tether, maybe the Dad said if she did it again, the laptop would be confiscated and destroyed. And so it was. The method is, in all honesty, totally irrelevant. It was shot. It could have just been thrown out the window and let smash on the ground outside, thrown in the bin, anything. Guns are TOOLS. they are not evil, because they are an inanimate object. They can't load themselves, they can't aim themselves, and they only go off themselves when they're faulty. The guy lives in the country, so the gun is more of a tool than the people in the city. It is STILL a tool. It's the person using it that makes it dangerous.

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  4. #123
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    A gun is a weapon, not a tool.

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  6. #124
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    Oh, I was waiting for the old "guns aren't dangerous, people are" excuse.

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  8. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savingfishfromdrowning View Post
    Unequal brain functioning justifies unequal treatment. It's not fair to expect a teenager to make sound decisions as an adult would, so it is therefore not fair to treat them the same way.

    I'd have no hesitation in throwing away (thereby destroying) something that belonged to my child as a punishment if their actions justified it. I don't think that means I'm not treating my child like a human being. I wouldn't post it on you tube, but I don't think his actions were disgusting parenting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    I didn't twist anything. I quoted exactly what you said and responded to it.
    No you did not. You quoted the first sentence and responded to it entirely separate from the context provided in the rest of the statement. See above, in particular the part where I say it's unfair to expect a teenager to behave like an adult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    I'm a psychologist I don't agree with you. They don't have 'unequal' brain functioning - they have immature brain functioning. That's not the same thing at all. And I suspect that the difference in philosophical approach toward children is what's causing the difference of opinion here. I believe that children are fully functioning human beings with more rights to be respected and protected than adults - who are actually capable, in the absence of disability, of standing up for themselves.
    I am a paed OT (and no, I do not use punishment with clients). I used the term 'brain function' colloquially so as to be understood on the public forum. A child's brain does not have the same cognitive capacity as an adult's brain. They do not have the higher reasoning skills that we have. There are numerous studies, I'm sure you are aware, that find that teenagers are more prone to impulsive behaviour and emotional outbursts. I happen to agree that children are 'people too' but it's not fair to expect adult behaviour and reasoning from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    I don't agree with your approach - I don't punish poor behaviour, I set boundaries around it. I also teach by modelling. If I want my children to behave respectfully, I behave respectfully toward them - and we talk about disrespectful behaviour when they aren't managing. If they continue to not be able to manage to achieve what's being modelled and explained to them, the stronger boundaries go into place - ie they're asked to remove themselves from company if they can't behave in a socially acceptable manner.

    However, that's actually all besides the point. What this man did was not punishment - it was public humiliation. It wasn't boundary setting - it was tantrum throwing. He did not intent to teach her a lesson, he intended to hurt her in the exact manner and fashion that he had himself been hurt by her. She modelled his behaviour - exactly - and then was punished for behaving in the exact way which she had been taught to behave - by the person who had taught her to behave that way.

    How is it that a child can know what 'respectful behaviour' is if they've never had somebody behave respectfully toward them?
    It's fine that you don't agree with my approach. That doesn't make it wrong. I am yet to see any research that shows that punishment is ineffective or harmful for typical children.

    I've stated before that I think the public humiliation was OTT, and the shooting was too (though culturally I don't think we can understand to judge). However, I think that despite that error, the punishment (disposal of laptop) fit the crime (using laptop with disrespect). I don't think his actions were 'abusive' and I doubt they would be damaging, he did some good and some not so good, but no one is perfect.

    I do not believe that all behaviour is learnt. I do not believe that it is a foregone conclusion that if a child behaves a certain way it's because their parent was taught them to. The nature vs nurture debate rages on. I know psychologists fall on the nurture side (as do most OTs), I happen to believe in a balace - children learn things and are also inherently born with particular personalities and temperaments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    Again, I did not manipulate anything - I quoted exactly what you wrote, and responded to it. If you find that offensive, I suggest that you engage in some self-reflection.
    Thanks for the advice. How much do I owe you?

    I'd like to politely request that you leave our professions out of any response you might make.

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  10. #126
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    On my first day of weapons training with the ADF we were told that the rifle we were training to use was a deadly weapon with the ability to kill or maim even the strongest of men and women and to be used with caution and with strict safety measures. In a 5 day course 2 and a half says we're dedicate to the SAFE use of the weapon. In fact in the military you always refer to them as weapons never guns. A gun is a bit bloke with large arms. A rifle or pistol is a weapon.

  11. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savingfishfromdrowning View Post
    No you did not. You quoted the first sentence and responded to it entirely separate from the context provided in the rest of the statement. See above, in particular the part where I say it's unfair to expect a teenager to behave like an adult.



    I am a paed OT (and no, I do not use punishment with clients). I used the term 'brain function' colloquially so as to be understood on the public forum. A child's brain does not have the same cognitive capacity as an adult's brain. They do not have the higher reasoning skills that we have. There are numerous studies, I'm sure you are aware, that find that teenagers are more prone to impulsive behaviour and emotional outbursts. I happen to agree that children are 'people too' but it's not fair to expect adult behaviour and reasoning from them.



    It's fine that you don't agree with my approach. That doesn't make it wrong. I am yet to see any research that shows that punishment is ineffective or harmful for typical children.

    I've stated before that I think the public humiliation was OTT, and the shooting was too (though culturally I don't think we can understand to judge). However, I think that despite that error, the punishment (disposal of laptop) fit the crime (using laptop with disrespect). I don't think his actions were 'abusive' and I doubt they would be damaging, he did some good and some not so good, but no one is perfect.

    I do not believe that all behaviour is learnt. I do not believe that it is a foregone conclusion that if a child behaves a certain way it's because their parent was taught them to. The nature vs nurture debate rages on. I know psychologists fall on the nurture side (as do most OTs), I happen to believe in a balace - children learn things and are also inherently born with particular personalities and temperaments.
    Look, this is all getting a bit silly. We actually seem to be agreeing on most things if you're stating that the use of the gun and the public humiliation was not appropriate parenting.

    However, whether you're using colloquial terms or not, I do *not*, nor ever will, agree that 'immature' equals 'unequal'. I absolutely believe that 'immature' equals 'requiring of greater protection' - not 'you can do whatever you want in the name of parenting, including intimidate, threaten, use deadly weapons as 'teaching' aides, and destroy the property of your children'.

    And of course not all behaviour is learnt. Where did I say that? I said that the father reacted to his daughter's disrespectful online rant with a disrespectful online rant of his own, culminating in public humiliation and the dangerous and over-the-top destruction of her property - therefore it's not hard to see where she learned her behaviour from in this instance.



    Quote Originally Posted by Savingfishfromdrowning View Post
    Thanks for the advice. How much do I owe you?

    I'd like to politely request that you leave our professions out of any response you might make.
    The reason I told you that I'm a psychologist is because you were telling me I should consult various professionals for a professional opinion. I don't need to, I have my own to fall back on. If you truly wanted to leave qualifications out of the argument, perhaps you could have left off the sarcastic remarks at the end of your post - because my advice re: self-reflection wasn't based on me being a psychologist, but on being an attachment parent who has been challenged on many ideals and philosophies throughout my time as a parent, and having to reformulate the way I see children and parenting. If you're appalled and insulted that your opinion is being responded to in such ways as Witwicky and I have responded (and others) perhaps that requires some self-reflection. I stand by that.

    The sarcasm asking about how much you owe me is not appreciated, or consistent with your request to leave qualifications out of the debate.

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    I find this very disturbing. Public shaming and aggressive behaviour (overt and passive) by this man will only worsen the obvious relationship problems here. I worry about the long term emotional impact of this for this girl, on the background of (presumably, but most likely) other instances of shame-based parenting practices... Her self-esteem is possibly already low.

    At least it appears he has been reported to Child Protection, which has apparently enabled him to be offered some more appropriate strategies for parenting his daughter. Shame he didn't seek assistance before he resorted to impulsively shaming her. I hope he receives ongoing parenting support and that this wasn't a one-off only. And I hope that his daughter has been offered some support of her own also.

  13. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    Look, this is all getting a bit silly. We actually seem to be agreeing on most things if you're stating that the use of the gun and the public humiliation was not appropriate parenting.

    However, whether you're using colloquial terms or not, I do *not*, nor ever will, agree that 'immature' equals 'unequal'. I absolutely believe that 'immature' equals 'requiring of greater protection' - not 'you can do whatever you want in the name of parenting, including intimidate, threaten, use deadly weapons as 'teaching' aides, and destroy the property of your children'.

    And of course not all behaviour is learnt. Where did I say that? I said that the father reacted to his daughter's disrespectful online rant with a disrespectful online rant of his own, culminating in public humiliation and the dangerous and over-the-top destruction of her property - therefore it's not hard to see where she learned her behaviour from in this instance.





    The reason I told you that I'm a psychologist is because you were telling me I should consult various professionals for a professional opinion. I don't need to, I have my own to fall back on. If you truly wanted to leave qualifications out of the argument, perhaps you could have left off the sarcastic remarks at the end of your post - because my advice re: self-reflection wasn't based on me being a psychologist, but on being an attachment parent who has been challenged on many ideals and philosophies throughout my time as a parent, and having to reformulate the way I see children and parenting. If you're appalled and insulted that your opinion is being responded to in such ways as Witwicky and I have responded (and others) perhaps that requires some self-reflection. I stand by that.

    The sarcasm asking about how much you owe me is not appreciated, or consistent with your request to leave qualifications out of the debate.
    I think we do agree essentially. I don't want to continue to debate with you. My main reason for arguing for this action is because I think the man acted imperfectly (I think if you read between the lines in his blog you might think he is realising this himself), but we don't have to be perfect parents. There was justice in some of what he did as well.

    The term 'unequal' is not the best term, again a colloquial use and if taken literally not exactly what I meant (in defense I am pregnant and for some reason having word-finding difficutlies ).

    I apologise for the sarcasm, you are right, it was not appropriate.

    You did take my quote out of context, as did Witwicky. The second sentence of my post provided clarification for the first. If you just look at the first sentence it doesn't convey the meaning at all. I still think partial quoting in a debate is rude. Using said quote to insinuate that I am prejudiced to people with a disability or groups that have a history of discrimination is uncalled for.

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    Imagine you have a next door neighbour with a 15 year old daughter, you hear him telling her off for whining about chores etc on facebook and then you see him shooting her laptop, in all honesty who of you would go 'oh that's really good, he's teaching her a lesson' and who of you would go 'omg he's out of control' and ring child protection. I know what I would do.

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