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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by cupcake91 View Post
    But what I'm asking is why is this an issue for midwifery and why not nursing???
    It is an issue for new graduate nurses fresh out of the B Nursing.
    It is an issue for new graduate midwives fresh out of the B Mid.
    It is not however an issue for experienced nurses who have completed the postgraduate midwifery course.

    Make sense now?

    (The question, by the way, that I was responding to in my post was "How is nursing first going to make you a better midwife"- so I provided a list of reasons why)
    Last edited by TheMadHatter; 22-01-2012 at 13:16.

  2. #72
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    I would think that there would still be teething issues tho for nurses just graduating from their post grad midi as things like pph, shoulder dystocia, unexpected breech birth etc etc will still throw them curve balls like any new bmid grad as their nursing training wouldn't cover that?

    We obviously are all taught these things but in terms of teething issues I would think IMO that these would still occur bmid or nurse/mid

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  4. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by cupcake91 View Post
    Just out of interest, why is this an issue for new graduate midwives but not an issue for new graduate nurses??? Double standards.....

    Graduate nurses are going to have the exact same 'problems' that you've stated, and graduate dual degree nurses/midwives are also going to have the same 'problems'.
    Respectfully, I disagree on one point. Yes, graduate nurses and graduate midwives will face the same challenges when they hit the workforce. As someone pointed out (I think it was Maria02) they both will need to get used to the hospital routines, politics, you need to work out who you do and don't gel with quickly (hell, I work with one ENC who hates me for the only reason that I have my Diploma and she doesn't and I'm allowed to do medications and she can't) and that there will be cruddy shift coordinators who think they run the joint and push their own agenda on the team.

    I do not believe that a dual degree (post grad ONLY) will not come across these issues to the same extent... He/she already understands the politics, knows how to do way more skills quicker and how to prepare and adapt themselves quicker than a new-straight out of uni graduate does.

    And yes, age aside, you can tell straight away who is a new grad compared to a post grad.

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  6. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by tashaplus2 View Post
    I would think that there would still be teething issues tho for nurses just graduating from their post grad midi as things like pph, shoulder dystocia, unexpected breech birth etc etc will still throw them curve balls like any new bmid grad as their nursing training wouldn't cover that?

    We obviously are all taught these things but in terms of teething issues I would think IMO that these would still occur bmid or nurse/mid
    Absolutely, you would get those issues no matter which way you studied.

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    Signing off this discussion thread. There is clearly a difference of opinions here. Let's just accept and agree that ACM and NMBA that have stated (by offering registration as a midwife) that people graduating from the BN/BM program, BM program and BN/PG Mid program are EQUALLY as competent as caring for pregnant women and their babies in all settings as each other. Good luck to everyone with their studies.

  8. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by cupcake91 View Post
    Signing off this discussion thread. There is clearly a difference of opinions here. Let's just accept and agree that ACM and NMBA that have stated (by offering registration as a midwife) that people graduating from the BN/BM program, BM program and BN/PG Mid program are EQUALLY as competent as caring for pregnant women and their babies in all settings as each other. Good luck to everyone with their studies.
    Yes, I agree- each has their benefits and drawbacks, but I don't think the differences between them are so much as to cause any major issues in competence. I'm finding this an interesting discussion though. We're allowed our differences of opinions- isn't that what the OP was asking for?

    Good luck with your studies too.

  9. #77
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    One point I forgot to mention re: post grads going into mid - their reaction times and adjustment abilities would all depend on what field they have just come from. Eg. Pal care nurses I think would adjust slower than those from A&E (where I work) and ICU (such as Maria02)

    We (I hope I can say this on your behalf too Maria02) have to adjust and adapt to any situation extremely quickly. If we don't, our patients die. Simple! Up on the wards, all of those patients are haemodynamically stable - if they weren't - they wouldn't leave the critical areas (such as A&E, CCU, HDU or ICU) until they could be stabilised.

    I think the curveballs in the labour, delivery and post delivery would all be covered in the post grad degree - therefore the post grad mids would be able to handle them just as competently as DEM's would.

  10. #78
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    Okay, I think the OP was asking about job prospects and employability, and how other staff would feel about working with DEM vs N/M. Basically this thread has just degenerated into attacking DEM! Which I feel is really unfair!

    Job prospects- we have established you may be less employable if you work rural or regional. Fair enough, they want people who can rotate based on the hospital's need. Personally, I have absolutely no interest in nursing at all. I respect nurses more than perhaps any other profession, the work they do is amazing. But I chose Mid because I want to work with childbearing women. Not sick people. Yes, some of those pregnant/post natal women will get sick, and it is important that midwives can recognise that. But ultimately high-risk pregnancies are overseen by Obs, and I am confident that my training and the experience I gain afterwards will educated me enough to be able to handle the problems that I will encounter working as a midwife.

    It has also been established that obviously nurses (judging by what PP who are nurses have expressed) do disregard DEM. Nice to know.... Hopefully as more DEM graduate, this changes.

    I agree that new grads will have teething problems, whether they be midwives or nurses. If a person has done nursing, worked, then done Mid, yes they will have a handle on some of these problems already. But a double degree N/M will be no different to a DEM when they first graduate in terms of learning the ropes as a new grad.

    I think it is really unfair to imply that a 20 yr old Mid is just doing it for whatever reason (can't remember the exact reason given) and an older just doing it coz they couldn't think of anything else (or whatever was suggested). Midwifery is not easy to get into. It is a LOT of work, especially if you are one of thses older women who have been out of the workforce with kids. Every student I have spoken to in depth is so so passionate about Midwifery, about women's birthing rights, about all the politics surrounding birth in Australia, about positive outcomes for mum and baby (and I don't just mean physical health, but also mental health). Not one person I know is in it just to get a job.

    I don't believe that DEM are more knowledgable that N/M, but we sure as hell aren't LESS. We cover a lot of general nursing stuff, I guess we don't cover the more specific stuff (maybe like palliative care and working with the elderly) as it is not particularly relevant. But EBP, ethic, the other stuff like blood pressure and all those general nursing things we do, plus a lot of specialised knowledge for pregnancy, birth and the postnatal period.

    Nurses and Midwives are completely different professions, midwives work predominantly with well women, nurses with sick men, women and children.

    By all means, give your opinion but don't belittle midwives. Basically this has just become a thread about how great nurses are and how crap midwives are, when really, they are both wonderful, and both very much underrated by the whole country and our politicians.

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  12. #79
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    Maria02, I think there are a few more things you could have used re: grad nurses first starting out in nursing.

    1/ Many new nurse grads have already been working for years in hospitals, doing the same thing, as EN's.
    2/ Starting from day of enrolment, students are working in hospitals as AIN's, so they get to know the hospital system, are able to do the more simpler tasks required of nurses etc
    3/ In their 2nd year summer break, students can take a 6 week course which will qualify them to work their 3rd year as an EN, so by graduation they already have a years experience.
    4/ Grad programs- nurses get 'eased' into work, by starting off with reduced workloads, a mentor, regular classes and essay/assignments which are more indepth and in line with the area they are doing the grad program in. One of my friends got 6 months oncology which she learnt so much more about IV's and pharmacology than she would have just being thrown in without a grad program. She is now starting her second 6 months in urology.

    Midwifery, whether DEM, dual or postgrad, would be great if they had something like a grad program or a short course in their 2nd year that allows them some sort of qualification to work as an assisting midwife during their final year, so that when they graduate, they are ready to hit the floor running and feel even more confidence in themselves. That would be awesome!

    I personally am not looking forward to my first clinical placement. I have heard that most students get placed in aged care. This is another area I am not interested in. I am a personal support worker of a very young man in a coma, and I love that, but I also know that aged care is not my thing. I can't wait for a placement where I can get into the ED or OR. Those are the areas for me- fast paced, react fast and brain constantly being challenged.

  13. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkey face View Post
    Maria02, I think there are a few more things you could have used re: grad nurses first starting out in nursing.

    1/ Many new nurse grads have already been working for years in hospitals, doing the same thing, as EN's.
    2/ Starting from day of enrolment, students are working in hospitals as AIN's, so they get to know the hospital system, are able to do the more simpler tasks required of nurses etc
    3/ In their 2nd year summer break, students can take a 6 week course which will qualify them to work their 3rd year as an EN, so by graduation they already have a years experience.
    4/ Grad programs- nurses get 'eased' into work, by starting off with reduced workloads, a mentor, regular classes and essay/assignments which are more indepth and in line with the area they are doing the grad program in. One of my friends got 6 months oncology which she learnt so much more about IV's and pharmacology than she would have just being thrown in without a grad program. She is now starting her second 6 months in urology.

    Midwifery, whether DEM, dual or postgrad, would be great if they had something like a grad program or a short course in their 2nd year that allows them some sort of qualification to work as an assisting midwife during their final year, so that when they graduate, they are ready to hit the floor running and feel even more confidence in themselves. That would be awesome!
    Thank you Annabella!
    Just in response to Funky Monkey (and I can't speak for all universities)
    From week 5 of my first semester, first year I was doing 2 shifts a week placement in the maternity unit. I continued to do 2 or 3 shifts a week for the entirety of my first and second year (nights and weekends included). I am currently doing 36 hours a week for the entirety of my third year of clinical placement and for the most part am expected to be the 'midwife' for all care and documentation (in antenatal clinic, birth suite and postnatal ward/home visits) with my preceptor sitting in a corner quietly watching. Once I graduate, I will be entering a preceptor graduate midwife program for my first year, as I don't want to be thrown in the deep end.


 

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