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  1. #21
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    Monkey face, where are you getting your information from, and these STATS in reference to CPM's over in the States? I'm American myself and would never consider becoming an "obstetric nurse." I'm thankful for a better system over here to study and to work. And as far as your last statement is concerned with hospitals over here seeing the "horrible things about America's direct entry midwives." Where are you getting your information from about these "horrible things" and their terrible STATS? Do you actually know people in the hospital system here sitting and comparing what goes on over there to here? Are you actually a practicing nurse/midwife yourself? How do you know that the "nursing part does matter" or that its not just a matter of policies changing and getting used to a new system? Change is always hard. Like I've said before I was counselled by many midwife friends who had done the double degree, to NOT go for a double degree now that the BMid degree is available. My counsel was that it was a waste of time for a lot of the subjects when you need to be doing more clinical care. My qualified nurse friend also counselled me in this way. She said that even as a nurse you are specialised in different areas depending on where you work when you come out and your experiences, so it would be more ideal to get the specialised midwifery training and be "with women" in a clinical setting straight up.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepees View Post
    Monkey face, where are you getting your information from, and these STATS in reference to CPM's over in the States? I'm American myself and would never consider becoming an "obstetric nurse." I'm thankful for a better system over here to study and to work. And as far as your last statement is concerned with hospitals over here seeing the "horrible things about America's direct entry midwives." Where are you getting your information from about these "horrible things" and their terrible STATS? Do you actually know people in the hospital system here sitting and comparing what goes on over there to here? Are you actually a practicing nurse/midwife yourself? How do you know that the "nursing part does matter" or that its not just a matter of policies changing and getting used to a new system? Change is always hard. Like I've said before I was counselled by many midwife friends who had done the double degree, to NOT go for a double degree now that the BMid degree is available. My counsel was that it was a waste of time for a lot of the subjects when you need to be doing more clinical care. My qualified nurse friend also counselled me in this way. She said that even as a nurse you are specialised in different areas depending on where you work when you come out and your experiences, so it would be more ideal to get the specialised midwifery training and be "with women" in a clinical setting straight up.
    Thepees, yes I do know people that look over the different stats there are in relation to childbirth, CNM's and CPM's and oversee employment policies in some of the hospitals, as well as one other that is on the board for APRAH. The biggest problem though with the stats in America they don't have a fantastic data keeping program for CPM transfers of birth (if a CPM transfers a birth, and the baby is stillborn in the carpark or passes away moments after birth while the car is being parked, the hospital take that statistic).

    No I am not a nurse/midwife, however I am part of a growing group of women who are bringing awareness via articles, research and other events to the dangers of americas CPM's (note, I DID say that they are different to our direct entry. Education is completely different, but you asked about the american stuff so I am answering). This group consists of OBGYN's, MD's in other specialties, CNM's, lawyers, coroners, school teachers, some aussie politicians and CPM's who have been so for many, many, many years and after researching differences are now seeing their profession is a danger and in the process of becoming CNM's or have chosen to retire instead of continuing the danger. Another large aspect of the group is mothers who have lost a baby during a CPM attended birth or have a severely disabled child due to a neglegent CPM. In Missouri, a study was done recently on outcomes of CPM attended births. They found that compared to a CNM attended birth, the baby is 20% more likely to die during or within hours of birth (search pubmed- there is a treasure trove of up to date, reliable studies on there. Read over each one and you will get a feel for it as more and more studies seem to support each other. The ones that don't, you usually have to read, but it will be in the research mode used or the 'study cases'). Another telling sign is a CPM named April Potter. She was on the board of North American Registery of Midwives and resigned from both midwifery and her board position after she had experienced so many deaths and found out that it was not normal to have such high numbers as she and other CPM's she worked with had.

    And how do I know nursing matters? Not only does all that i just typed support this, but an article I read only yesterday (I will have to go back searching for it) showed the increased number of peritnatal and maternal deaths due to non-pregnancy related sickness/diseases, here in Australia, which nurse/midwives pick up on but direct entry midwives are not picking up on. Due to this finding, hospitals are looking at introducing...NURSING!..for all direct entry midwives so they can catch up.

  3. #23
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    Don't worry ladies doing direct entry - if u struggle to work in Oz just come to nz - they love midwives especially direct entry!!! Hehe

    (says the bmid student jumping ship to Oz the second I graduate for more money lol)

  4. #24
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    Monkeyface- I don't really agree or think u can compare the systems tbh. I mean yes error/trauma can occur in birth but that's going to happen in all areas/countries/degree styles sadly. And is the American direct entry the same as Oz? If not u can't really compare apples with apples. I keep harping on about it but I train bmid in new Zealand. We do a four year degree that is internationally recognized as on line with the UK and one of the best degrees in the world for midwifery. We have people travel to nz just to study it. From speaking to an Australian lecturer in bmid (when I was thinking of transferring) she stated Oz is trying to line up with that.

    There are always horror stories. Always will be. But in terms of the decision, in Australia, comparing each option, I believe (personal opinion!!! Disclaimer) that if u want to be a midwife, not a nurse, then bmid is the way to go. Especially if u want to travel without retraining! If you are not 100% on nurse vs midwife then do the dual.

    I see it from my own eyes but from a country that highly values midwives and only trains bmid.

    Food for thought

  5. #25
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    Also keep in mind that the dual is not recognised overseas, and the post grad midwifery is being phased out, nurses will have to do the Bachelor of Midwifery, but will be granted credits for some parts of it.

    Tash, i so wish i had stayed in NZ!

  6. #26
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    Flowerfae - I'm glad that 'life happened' And I'm finishing my training here in nz instead of Oz tbh. Means I come outwith my four yr degree (even tho the workload is a freaking killer) but it means I can work anywhere as it's high level of training.

    You are right too - dual is being phased out. So it's the way the world heading towards direct entry....

    Also to give u an idea - here in nz nurses who then want to do midwifery get only like four papers credited!!! So only one semester off our four yr degree! Ouch
    Last edited by SunshineMunky; 21-01-2012 at 10:07.

  7. #27
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    Hi All! I'm an RN and I went into nursing to become a Midwife, but when I was ready to study they only offered the Postgrad Mid.

    A couple of years ago I looked into blowing off my nursing degree (couldn't find a nursing job and unable to get into PG Mid without any nursing experience ) and going back to square one and doing the direct entry Midwifery.
    One of the things that put me off was the fact that at the time, there was no legislation for the hiring of direct entry Middies and therefore most hospy's would only employ RN-Midwives. I know that at the time there was a lot of effort being made by the Uni's to get the legislation changed, but I'm not sure if they succeeded.

  8. #28
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    And how do I know nursing matters? Not only does all that i just typed support this, but an article I read only yesterday (I will have to go back searching for it) showed the increased number of peritnatal and maternal deaths due to non-pregnancy related sickness/diseases, here in Australia, which nurse/midwives pick up on but direct entry midwives are not picking up on. Due to this finding, hospitals are looking at introducing...NURSING!..for all direct entry midwives so they can catch up.[/QUOTE]

    I'd love to read that because after speaking to the midwives, In the midwives clinic Yesterday, they said they are astounded at the quality of even the first year DEM students that are in the clinics/births and
    One of them, a practicing MIDWIFE and has been for 25 years is going back to Uni because her in-hospital training is no where near what the DEMs are being provided. So I find that article absurd to say the least.

  9. #29
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    PP I agree

  10. #30
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    I have to agree with tashaplus2, thepees and flowerfae etc. I have spoken to lecturers who are still practicing midwives, members of the maternity coalition, midwives working in hospitals and private practice and representatives of the australian college of midwives. They all say that unless you plan on working in a very remote hospital with minimal births where you may need to do relief work on the wards when there are no births you will never be employed as a nurse/midwife. Meaning you will never work one shift in the maternity suite and the next in a totally different area of the facility. They all say that the world and australia are all beginning to catch up with the long-known truth that midwifery care is about caring for pregnant women who are healthy and their healthy babies and promoting normal child birth. Of course done women our their babies may have underlying health problems and all the way through the bachelor of midwifery we are taught about causes of these illnesses, its impact on the mother and baby and treatment & referral of these patients. Pregnancy is not an illness. Being a midwifery student who has studied pregnancy, birth & the postnatal period for 3/4 years abd the sometimes overwhelming amount of practical experience gained prepares us for our lives as autonomous health professionals. Spending 3 years learning about the elderly, men, teenagers and any other group outside child-bearing women, followed by a 1.5 year summary of midwifery practice could not offer the same amount off knowledge & practice. They advised that the main reason for doing the dual degree or post grad would be if you are unsure of your career path, where you msy want to work in nicu etc as a nurse for a few years and then as a midwife for a few years.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to mytwoangels For This Useful Post:

    SunshineMunky  (21-01-2012)


 

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