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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by share a book View Post
    But then you can do all that and still not be safe.
    Very true. What a screwed up world we live in.

    At risk of being accused of 'victim-blaming', which I will categorically state that I am not, I guess for me its about risk assessment. If its something that carries a lot of risk- ie walking around alone after dark in a 'bad' neighbourhood, I won't do it, in the hope I reduce my chance of being mugged or assaulted or whatever. The same for accepting drinks off strangers or people I don't know well, going home drunk with strangers (as I have gotten older and wiser)or leaving my kids with most people I know. Of course, these measures don't necessarily mean I will never be assaulted or robbed or raped, or that a family member will never hurt my children. But I will continue to take steps to try to reduce the risk.

    None of this means that in the instance I did accept accept a drink off a stranger, or someone I thought I could trust- that it was my fault, as I didn't 'take the necessary steps to protect myself'. Of course only the person who actually committed the crime is responsible.

    Surely everyone else takes steps to try to protect themselves and their families from harm?

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  3. #32
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    being protective of yourself and children is normal.
    Thats not the problem.

    We all have different risk assesment skills.
    just because one person is hyper vigilant, does not mean that a less vigilant person is careless or asking for it.

    Thats where the problem lies..where people believe that anyone who gets raped, put themself in the position.

    I am hyper vigilant now...and will teach my girls to be as well...but if anything were to happen , I will not blame them for any lapse in their self protection.

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerylsMum View Post
    being protective of yourself and children is normal.
    Thats not the problem.

    We all have different risk assesment skills.
    just because one person is hyper vigilant, does not mean that a less vigilant person is careless or asking for it.

    Thats where the problem lies..where people believe that anyone who gets raped, put themself in the position.

    I am hyper vigilant now...and will teach my girls to be as well...but if anything were to happen , I will not blame them for any lapse in their self protection.
    I completely agree with every word you said. I guess i just feel like I have to explain it as some replies are maybe suggesting that anyone who feels that way is blaming the victim.

  6. #34
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    And the other problem is, where do you draw the line? Sure, people take steps to protect themselves, all the time - but when women who are dressed in burqas and don't leave their own homes except in the presence of a male relative, and are never uncovered in the presence of anybody who's not immediate family are STILL RAPED - then how can we keep telling ourselves that women can do anything to prevent rape?

    We're all doing things to protect ourselves - and we're still being raped.

    Or to put it another way - if there was a way that women could stop rape, they would be doing it. If there was a way women could stop rape from happening, rape wouldn't be happening. The fact that it still is means that there isn't anything that women can do to prevent rape.

    So sure, use your best judgements and risk assessments (I just read that back and it sounds mocking, I don't mean it to be - I'm genuinely saying that that's fair enough to do so), but stating that it reduces your risk of being raped is not true. It doesn't. It might make you feel safer, but it's a false safety - because in the real world, 'stranger drags woman into a bush or out of a dark alley' rapes don't happen all that often at all. Women are usually raped by somebody known to them, and usually in their own home or that of somebody known to them.

    (And please, before any of the "Men can be raped too!" stuff starts up, I am aware of this and I am not dismissing the experience of male rape victims or denying the fact of their rapes. But given that the vast majority of rape victims are women, and given the vast majority of bubhub users are women, I'm using these terms out of convenience).

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annabella View Post
    I completely agree with every word you said. I guess i just feel like I have to explain it as some replies are maybe suggesting that anyone who feels that way is blaming the victim.
    yeah i know..Its annoying as that doesnt help.people who feel the need to protect themselves are not victim blaming. but there are people who protect themselves and believe this is the way to prevent rape..

  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    So sure, use your best judgements and risk assessments (I just read that back and it sounds mocking, I don't mean it to be - I'm genuinely saying that that's fair enough to do so), but stating that it reduces your risk of being raped is not true. It doesn't. It might make you feel safer, but it's a false safety - because in the real world, 'stranger drags woman into a bush or out of a dark alley' rapes don't happen all that often at all. Women are usually raped by somebody known to them, and usually in their own home or that of somebody known to them.
    Tam, I agree we, as a victim, cannot stop rape, only the person who is raping can. But I do honestly believe that I AM reducing my chances of being raped by taking the steps I do. I am not saying that all women SHOULD take the same steps, that if they don't take the same steps they are somehow setting themselves up to be raped or anything of the sort.

    But I am pretty confident that if I were to say, work in the sex industry, I would be at a much HIGHER risk or being raped. If I left my kids with any of my husband's uncles, THEY would be at a higher risk (I know thats really awful, but I don't trust many male family members), if I went and got smashed every weekend and left nightclubs with strangers or aquaintences and their mates, I would be at a higher risk of being raped.

    That is not to say that ANYONE who does those things is inviting that to happen, because the onus of course is on the rapist himself. Like if you leave your door unlocked, and someone cleans out your house, its the robber's fault, not yours.

    I agree, we cannot stop rape completely by taking preventative measures, but I know for sure, that MY PERSONAL chance of being raped is reduced by doing what I do. That doesn't mean it will never happen to me, just like even if I lock my door, someone could still break in and steal my stuff, but I do believe strongly that its worth taking these measures, and that I am not blaming anyone who doesn't, or gets raped under other circumstances. I will be teaching my kids the same thing.

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  10. #37
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    The moral of this has never been to say "If you engage in a risk analysis you are a victim blamer".

    It has been that stating that modifying your behaviour has an impact on whether or not you are raped - ergo if you do not modify your behaviour you are increasing your risk of being raped - ergo you have some responsibility in being raped because you shouldn't do those things that increase your risk - is a) erroneous, b) dangerous (because it gives women a false sense of security) and c) yes, victim blaming - because what about those people who didn't follow your risk analysis? People keep saying "No, no, they're not to blame", but blame and responsibility are synonyms of each other. If somebody doesn't engage in the same risk analysis and doesn't take the same steps that you (as a general, not as anyone specific, because we all do this to a certain extent) have taken, then they are in some way responsible (ie to blame).

    Like...If I say "Well, as part of my risk analysis, I wouldn't accept a drink from a stranger" and a woman who DID accept a drink from a stranger and was raped is reading this, it's not so much of a stretch for her to go "Yeah, I accepted that drink, and that caused my rape".

    No. It didn't. The rapist caused your rape. The rapist is the only one responsible, ever.

    And the things is, I know this is hard to get. I'm not immune to the head-f*** aspect of it, because I want to be safe too. But I'm NOT safe until people stop raping. I could be raped by my husband, my brother, my father, my doctor, my volleyball coach, my colleague, my boss, my friend, my friend's friend. It could happen anytime, any place, by anybody. And once I truly accepted that I was terrified, yes - but also freed. Because I can stop doing these arbitrary things that don't keep me safe anyway. Women who have done all of those things have still been raped.

    And that's the point. It's frightening, down-right terrifying sometimes. But there it is.

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  12. #38
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    I also think that whenever people hear the term 'victim-blamer'/'victim-blaming' they immediately assume that that's an aggressive act.

    I don't believe it is, necessarily. I think it *can* be - but that most of the time, people who are victim blaming would never consider themselves to be doing so, would be appalled at the idea that they could be interpreted that way, and mean no harm whatsoever. But I always think of how a woman who has been raped in the situation that is being discussed would feel reading the discussion. How self-blame is internalised and how women are taught that they are to blame, most of the time, for most things anyway.

    I've come to the conclusion that even though it's mostly not malicious, that doesn't mean it's not harmful, iykwim

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    I guess for me,.i know that people who break the law are criminals, and at fault. But I will make it harder for them to break the law by doing something to me. I have a very secure house. My house stays locked. My car stays locked. If I left them unlocked, and someone broke in, they would still be to blame. But they are more likely to not break in if they realise it will be hard to get past the security, before they even have to try to get past the dog. So it isn't to say I am completely safe, no one will ever break in, it's less likely they will bother. It also isn't to say that ifeople choose not to have security systems, a dog, or lock the door, they invite people to break in.

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    But you are essentially saying that I AM blaming a victim, just because I choose to take steps to try and reduce my risk!

    I get what you are saying, but no, I am not at all suggesting that someone who doesn't take the same precautions is somehow responsible for their rape. I agree, no matter what precautions we take, no-one will ever be completely safe until rapists stop raping. But realistically, rapists are not going to stop raping, and I think its fair to take steps to try and protect myself, without being accused of blaming other women who do not have the same risk assessment as me.

    (and FTR, I did accept a lift home from a friend's cousin one night/early morning and had quite an upsetting experience. I do not blame myself for his actions, as they are his alone, but I sure as hell won't be putting myself in the same position again. Once its done, its done and no amount of blaming anyone- yourself or the perpetrator- changes that. So I prefer now to try and avoid those situations altogether where I feel more vulnerable and more at risk.)

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