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  1. #51
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    in regards to the name i never knew that birth rape existed until i joined the hub i used to just tell people i was ******en screwed majorly.

    it doesnt bother me what people call it but i think if the term birth rape is to be used then there needs to be more awarness about it
    Last edited by amiee; 18-01-2012 at 01:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    It's semantics to you. To women who have finally found a term that describes what it is that they feel happened, telling them they can't use that term is silencing them. You're not the only person in the world who has been both raped and birthraped (or had obstetric violence done to them if you care to define your experience that way). Every woman has the right to define their experience the way that *they* feel it.

    I'm really disappointed that after having read the "It's not RAPE rape" article (as I hope you have), that this is your response.

    I understand that you didn't post what you did in malice - but can you imagine if somebody came along and told you that you couldn't call your sexual assault a sexual assault because it didn't meet some arbitrary criteria? Not only that but by calling it by that name, you diminished other women's experiences? Wouldn't you feel silenced by that? Shut down, unable to discuss your experiences, unable to gain support, unable to make people understand what happened to you? That's something far more than semantics. It'd be totally unjust.

    And I'm not nitpicking at small details. You argued that women a) have a responsibility to change their own behaviour (ie become more educated) in order to not be birthraped, b) that the term birthrape was 'silly' and 'should not be used' because c) the intention of the doctor performing the birthrape should be taken into consideration more than the woman's feelings on what was done to her.

    I understand very well what your arguments were and I've disputed and disagreed and given clear, sound, logical reasons why I don't agree - which are essentially that a) women are not responsible for being birthraped, birth rapists are responsible for birth raping b) women have the right to label their experiences what it feels like to them and c) regardless of intent, if a woman is traumatised by having something done to her genitals against her will in labour, by the very definition of the word rape, she has been raped, in birth, thus birthraped.
    I never argued that women have a responsibility to change their own behaviour (ie become more educated) in order to not be birthraped, that is just how you took it.

    But if we educate women thenthey know what they are feeling is justified, they could know that we dont have to put up with it.

    Also the birthrape does not just happen to genitals, it happens to our whole body and our babies, so calling it birthrape just forgets the rest of it and focuses on just the genitals, which has been my point all along, i just didnt say it well enough. What about the people who get sedated without consultation? What about the node stuck to babies heads or c sections for the doctors conveineince or cord being cut early cause they dont want to wait, drugs to push along the plaenta with out permission? How is that defined by birthrape? Can you see where i am coming from on this? or am i still clear as mud.

    But now that you mention it we are educated about rape to help prevent it, why cant education help prevent birthrape. Let people know that they can say no if they want to. That is part of the problem. Many people want to say no but dont think they can, education could help them.

    That does not mean that if you dont say no it is your fault!!!!! I have never said that and never will, ever. I have never even felt that way.

    I do not want to belittle any one for calingit birthrape but feel it is extreme and disengages the community. Call it what you want, but when articles are written and people talk about it to the public i believe birthrape should not be used.

    I did not feel raped, i felt assulted. I have experienced both and both were so completely different.

    Yes i was told my sexual assult could not be called that, by the DPP, i also had to stand up in court while they argued that, and give evidenvce. My Rape and sexual assult had to be classified under 12 different charges, none of them mentioned rape. Which is why can understand that definitions count. They are very important to public opinion and support. I was always refering to discussing it with the comunity, never to your self or friends.

    If you mention birthrape to soemone who has not experienced it they do not get the picture of unwated precedures and examinations done to a birthing women.

    They think birth and sex, get uncomfortable and stop listening.

    How can we get this recognised and accepted by the community if they dont even know what it is? And if it is not recognised and accepted we can not prevent it.

    I have said, and resaid but i am obviously not making my self understood by most, things are getting misconstrued. If i keep going things will degenerate, which i dont want to see happen.

    If you dont understand what i me by now you never will, no offense to any one, im not trying to be mean, but it happens. I feel we are saying pretty much the same thing in different ways.

    The issue is so personal to so many women and so polarising that we seem to be on different teams, even though we are not. I never meant to diminish any ones experiences, and im not realy sure how people took it that way.

    As i keep saying MY feelings, My opinion, I think.

    Olive branches to all.

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    I think that any woman who feels that they have been birthraped, or in fact has been birthraped, has every right to call it that and identify with it. I think what some women suffer in childbirth is horrendous and disgusting.

    Myself however, and keep in mind this is ME and MY FEELINGS, will never be comfortable using that term. For myself. I have been raped by a stranger (twice), I also spent most of my childhood suffering at the hands of sexual abuse, and unfortunately suffered a horrifying birth full of what people are describing as birthrape. Whilst each experience was filled with similar trauma and mental consequences and feelings of shame and guilt; no matter how hard I try I cannot group them together for in my experience (only mine) they are not even in the same ballpark.

    I understand how they are, and I have read this whole thread and tried and tried to be okay with calling what happened to me birthrape. But I just cannot be comfortable with it because despite the very obvious similarities, my experiences are too different.

    Please don't take this the wrong way. I also firmly believe that any woman who was birthraped has the right to call it that. Everyone experiences things differently this is just how I feel about myself.

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  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    I never argued that women have a responsibility to change their own behaviour (ie become more educated) in order to not be birthraped, that is just how you took it.

    But if we educate women thenthey know what they are feeling is justified, they could know that we dont have to put up with it.
    Again, some women don't have the power or the will to object for a variety of different reasons - that doesn't mean they're 'putting up with it' or that they'll be able to stop 'putting up with it' if they're educated about what it is. Some of the most intelligent, most informed, most together women in the world will STILL BE birthraped.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Also the birthrape does not just happen to genitals, it happens to our whole body and our babies, so calling it birthrape just forgets the rest of it and focuses on just the genitals, which has been my point all along, i just didnt say it well enough. What about the people who get sedated without consultation? What about the node stuck to babies heads or c sections for the doctors conveineince or cord being cut early cause they dont want to wait, drugs to push along the plaenta with out permission? How is that defined by birthrape? Can you see where i am coming from on this? or am i still clear as mud.
    I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. The same argument could be made for the term 'rape' (as in the sense that it's used in common understanding). Ie rape doesn't just happen to the genitals - it happens to the mind. What about women who have fingers shoved in their mouths against their consent? Or penises or other objects? What about women who have things shoved up their anuses without consent? What about women who are given drugs or their drinks are spiked with more alcohol than they realised they were drinking? And so forth and so on. Yet these things are all recognised as playing an integral role in rape.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    But now that you mention it we are educated about rape to help prevent it, why cant education help prevent birthrape.
    I'm afraid you missed my point on that one. Yes, women are educated on how to prevent themselves from getting raped. Does it work? Absolutely not - because women *CAN'T* prevent themselves from being raped if a rapist is determined to rape her. The only people who can prevent rape are rapists - so why do we put the pressure on women to change their behaviour in order not to be raped? Mostly, it's because we feel safer that way. Ie if only *I* do this, that and the other, then I'll be safe from being raped. Total fallacy, that leads to women being blamed for their own rapes, for them being told that they were 'partially responsible' because if only they hadn't done x, y, or z, they wouldn't have been raped. It's total bollocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Let people know that they can say no if they want to. That is part of the problem. Many people want to say no but dont think they can, education could help them.
    And many women CAN'T say no, even when they want to. And many people DO say no and are STILL raped. Because again, the only thing that can stop rape is rapists not raping.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    That does not mean that if you dont say no it is your fault!!!!! I have never said that and never will, ever. I have never even felt that way.
    I'm really glad to hear it

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    I do not want to belittle any one for calingit birthrape but feel it is extreme and disengages the community.
    What evidence do you have for that? As far as I can tell from your posts, tonight was the first time you heard it. So do you mean it disengaged YOU? Because fair enough if it did...but calling a total ban on it for other people is kind of the definition of 'extreme'.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Call it what you want, but when articles are written and people talk about it to the public i believe birthrape should not be used.
    Well, no offence (and I mean that truly), but thankfully it's not up to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    I did not feel raped, i felt assulted. I have experienced both and both were so completely different.
    I accept they were different - FOR YOU. For other people, they are completely the same. Why can't you accept that?

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Yes i was told my sexual assult could not be called that, by the DPP, i also had to stand up in court while they argued that, and give evidenvce. My Rape and sexual assult had to be classified under 12 different charges, none of them mentioned rape. Which is why can understand that definitions count. They are very important to public opinion and support. I was always refering to discussing it with the comunity, never to your self or friends.
    I'm so very very sorry that that happened to you And yes, I understand that 'rape' is a legal term that has fallen off the radar and that all sorts of other euphemisms are used now in it's place. That in itself is appalling.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    If you mention birthrape to soemone who has not experienced it they do not get the picture of unwated precedures and examinations done to a birthing women.

    They think birth and sex, get uncomfortable and stop listening.
    Again, I wonder how you can possibly know that if tonight was the first time you had heard the term?

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    How can we get this recognised and accepted by the community if they dont even know what it is?
    Um? We explain it? That seems pretty obvious to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    And if it is not recognised and accepted we can not prevent it.
    Denying it's existence certainly won't prevent it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    I have said, and resaid but i am obviously not making my self understood by most, things are getting misconstrued. If i keep going things will degenerate, which i dont want to see happen.
    I'm not seeing any degeneration I'm actually enjoying that this is a mature and calm discussion about some pretty heated and emotional issues. I appreciate your input. I value your opinion. I think you have every right to it. I also think you're wrong and I disagree with you. It doesn't mean I respect you any less

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    If you dont understand what i me by now you never will, no offense to any one, im not trying to be mean, but it happens. I feel we are saying pretty much the same thing in different ways.
    Likewise - I'm not meaning to offend you. I don't think you misunderstand me, and I don't think I misunderstand you. There's a difference between misunderstanding and disagreeing. I think we're disagreeing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    The issue is so personal to so many women and so polarising that we seem to be on different teams, even though we are not. I never meant to diminish any ones experiences, and im not realy sure how people took it that way.

    As i keep saying MY feelings, My opinion, I think.

    Olive branches to all.
    I guess because you're telling them that they can't call something extremely personal and very emotional by a name that makes sense and explains their own experience to them. That's a pretty silencing act...

    Your opinions, your feelings, you think etc doesn't change the fact that you're actively trying to impose your will for the term birthrape not to be used in relation to other women's experiences.

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  8. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    Why does your definition change if we put her in a hospital bed with a uterus full of baby and him at the end of the bed in a medical coat? Will she be less traumatised? Will her genitals be less assaulted? This is not hyperbolic, BTW. It's the actual lived examples of some women - some who have been brave enough to share their experiences with me..
    It is not just her genitals, it is her whole budy and the baby. see above post i mentioned it.

    Also if they shared their experience with you, you should not be repeating it, even anonomously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    Do you really, seriously think that rape is about 'getting off'? If so, your understanding of rape seems pretty limited...If it's about 'getting off' (which I assume you mean orgasming by), how do you explain digital rape? Or rape with an object that's not a penis? Rape with a dildo? Rape by a bloke who can't get an erection?
    Assumptions get you no where, getting off does not just mean orgasm or ejaculation. He enjoys it, he gets off.

    Throught your argument you push men doing it to women, my doctor was female, how does that fit your argument?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    And I'm a psychologist who specialises in women's health issues - including BIRTHRAPE and post-traumatic birth counselling. Are we finished waving credentials in each other's faces now?
    Then you should have know that i was explaining it so that people can see where i am coming from and how i formed my opinions. Did you read somewhere along the line that i mentioned i am not an expert and i thought people were having problems understanding were i was coming from.

    You should have also known that comment was quite nasty, and due to get me riled up. I have deleted the nasty thing i typed, so i dont insult you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    I GET why you're uncomfortable, I really do. Birthrape SHOULD be uncomfortable. It should bloody make us squirm in our seats to hear it. I get it. But it doesn't take one iota of your experience away from you for other women to be able to FINALLY identify theirs in terms that helps them heal. Trying to take that away from them is just so far beyond okay.
    Did you also get the point that people hear birth rape and stop listening, you cant make peole listen or cram it down their throats.

    My argument centered around defining it better for the comunity so that they can understand the whole experience not just what hapens to the genitalia?

    Birth rape narrows peoples preceptions of the crime, they forget about the other stuff.

    I have had an epiphany about what i have been trying to say.

    What i have meant but not said very well, is that birthrape is a part of obsetric assult. Do you get me now?

    Im not taking ther definitions away, trying to hinder healing or anything of the sort.

    My experience did not have a lot of genital action, which is why i can not assosiate it with rape. I am not the only one, which is whythe term birth rape is not inclusive.

    I was sedated without consultation, denied requested treatment, forgotten about, given drugs i repeatedly said i was allergic to, did not get the female doctor till i threw a tanty, even though she was available, they did not inform me what was hapening with my baby or my self, refused to tell us the sex when she was born, they gave my baby to some one else to feed on, they took my baby out of the room to let me sleep all night without consultation, bottle and formula fed her with out consultation.

    They did this with no intention to degrade, have power or get enjoyment in any way. They were doing their job the best the knew how in what they thought was best for me and my baby. It never occured to them to ask or comunicate or pass on requests. So it does not fit with what you have described.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    It is not just her genitals, it is her whole budy and the baby. see above post i mentioned it.
    I answered that, but perhaps while you were posting Ie : The same argument could be made for the term 'rape' (as in the sense that it's used in common understanding). Ie rape doesn't just happen to the genitals - it happens to the mind and the whole body. What about women who have fingers shoved in their mouths against their consent? Or penises or other objects? What about women who have things shoved up their anuses without consent? What about women who are given drugs or their drinks are spiked with more alcohol than they realised they were drinking? And so forth and so on. Yet these things are all recognised as playing an integral role in rape and in no way diminish the term rape or make it less recognisable.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Also if they shared their experience with you, you should not be repeating it, even anonomously.
    Please don't be so rude and insulting as to admonish me on my professional and ethical responsibilities to confidentiality. I know them very well and have crossed no ethical, or legal, or moral boundary with what I have written here.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Assumptions get you no where, getting off does not just mean orgasm or ejaculation. He enjoys it, he gets off.
    So it would be really nice if you would stop ignoring my repeated posting about the 'stirrup the b!tch' ob. What do you think he was doing, if not enjoying himself and exerting his power and authority over a woman in a helpless situation to his benefit and her detriment?

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Throught your argument you push men doing it to women, my doctor was female, how does that fit your argument?
    That female obstetricians are in a position of power and authority and may very well 'get off' (by your definition of the word) on exerting that power and authority over women who are in their care.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Then you should have know that i was explaining it so that people can see where i am coming from and how i formed my opinions. Did you read somewhere along the line that i mentioned i am not an expert and i thought people were having problems understanding were i was coming from.
    I said I was a 'psychologist'. Not a 'psychic'. I can't read your mind. I'm not trying to be rude with this, but being a psychologist doesn't give me extra skills to understand you if you're not saying what it is that you want to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    You should have also known that comment was quite nasty, and due to get me riled up. I have deleted the nasty thing i typed, so i dont insult you.
    I actually wasn't trying to be nasty and I'm sorry you interpreted it that way. I was trying to make a joke and relieve some of the tension. I hoped that you would have a laugh at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Did you also get the point that people hear birth rape and stop listening, you cant make peole listen or cram it down their throats.
    No, I got the point that YOU hear birthrape and stop listening. I still don't understand how you conflate your own response with every body else's?

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    My argument centered around defining it better for the comunity so that they can understand the whole experience not just what hapens to the genitalia?
    Again - Rape is not confined to genitalia, but people seem to understand that just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Birth rape narrows peoples preceptions of the crime, they forget about the other stuff.
    You're making generalisations that you can't possibly know.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    I have had an epiphany about what i have been trying to say.

    What i have meant but not said very well, is that birthrape is a part of obsetric assult. Do you get me now?
    I'm not entirely sure. I THINK what you're trying to say is that it's only part of the picture? I'm not sure why that changes anything, though. There are different kinds of non-gestational, non-obstetric, bodily assaults. That doesn't mean the term 'rape' can never be used, though. It means that we use different terms to describe different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Im not taking ther definitions away, trying to hinder healing or anything of the sort.
    I'm trying to understand why it is that you've been so insistent that people not use a term that makes sense to them, given that the above is the case. I believe that what you are saying is true, that you are supportive of people defining their own experiences - but that includes being comfortable with them using the term birthrape, which you have categorically stated they shouldn't. I don't understand, it seems like a contradiction to me, I'm seriously trying to understand where you're coming at this from?

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    My experience did not have a lot of genital action, which is why i can not assosiate it with rape. I am not the only one, which is whythe term birth rape is not inclusive.

    I was sedated without consultation, denied requested treatment, forgotten about, given drugs i repeatedly said i was allergic to, did not get the female doctor till i threw a tanty, even though she was available, they did not inform me what was hapening with my baby or my self, refused to tell us the sex when she was born, they gave my baby to some one else to feed on, they took my baby out of the room to let me sleep all night without consultation, bottle and formula fed her with out consultation.

    They did this with no intention to degrade, have power or get enjoyment in any way. They were doing their job the best the knew how in what they thought was best for me and my baby. It never occured to them to ask or comunicate or pass on requests. So it does not fit with what you have described.
    Okay...so it wasn't a birth rape? So your experience was an obstetric assault, or obstetric violence, or whatever you'd like to term that...but that doesn't mean that OTHER WOMEN'S experiences AREN'T birthrape. Nobody is trying to force the term on you if it doesn't fit. So I'm not understanding what your objection to it being used in their circumstances is.

    I'm very seriously not being passive-aggressive, rude, or trying to be hurtful in anyway. I'm sorry that I insulted you and hurt you. I didn't intend to do so, but accept that I did. I'm really trying to understand why it is that we seem to be on the same page but kind of...missing something by way of communication here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    Again, some women don't have the power or the will to object for a variety of different reasons - that doesn't mean they're 'putting up with it' or that they'll be able to stop 'putting up with it' if they're educated about what it is. Some of the most intelligent, most informed, most together women in the world will STILL BE birthraped.
    .
    I have NEVER said that they are putting up with it, or implied it. Ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. The same argument could be made for the term 'rape' (as in the sense that it's used in common understanding). Ie rape doesn't just happen to the genitals - it happens to the mind. What about women who have fingers shoved in their mouths against their consent? Or penises or other objects? What about women who have things shoved up their anuses without consent? What about women who are given drugs or their drinks are spiked with more alcohol than they realised they were drinking? And so forth and so on. Yet these things are all recognised as playing an integral role in rape.
    .
    Anuses are genitals. All that you mentioned is of a sexual nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    Yet these things are all recognised as playing an integral role in rape. .
    The magic words - integral role - by them selves some are not rape, drugging is actually charged as assult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    I'm afraid you missed my point on that one. Yes, women are educated on how to prevent themselves from getting raped. Does it work? Absolutely not - because women *CAN'T* prevent themselves from being raped if a rapist is determined to rape her. The only people who can prevent rape are rapists - so why do we put the pressure on women to change their behaviour in order not to be raped? Mostly, it's because we feel safer that way. Ie if only *I* do this, that and the other, then I'll be safe from being raped. Total fallacy, that leads to women being blamed for their own rapes, for them being told that they were 'partially responsible' because if only they hadn't done x, y, or z, they wouldn't have been raped. It's total bollocks.

    .
    Yes rape is prevented by education. Some women dont walk down tha alley drunk in the middle of the night.

    They dont leave their drinks alone or accept drinks from strangers

    Dont accept rides home from strangers or go home drunk with a few guys.

    Not all but some.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    And many women CAN'T say no, even when they want to. And many people DO say no and are STILL raped. Because again, the only thing that can stop rape is rapists not raping.

    .
    This was never the contention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    What evidence do you have for that? As far as I can tell from your posts, tonight was the first time you heard it. So do you mean it disengaged YOU? Because fair enough if it did...but calling a total ban on it for other people is kind of the definition of 'extreme'.

    .
    No i mentined last week was the first tim ei had heard of it. No obviously did not disengage me, i am still here making valid points and arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    Well, no offence (and I mean that truly),
    .
    It doesnt feel like it, i am feeling a bit set apon, and i know you dont mean it that way, unfortunately that is the dynamics of a forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    I accept they were different - FOR YOU. For other people, they are completely the same. Why can't you accept that?

    .
    Every single persons experiences are different, they are not the same, and i am surprised that you would say they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    I'm so very very sorry that that happened to you And yes, I understand that 'rape' is a legal term that has fallen off the radar and that all sorts of other euphemisms are used now in it's place. That in itself is appalling.
    .
    Thank you. Dont you love how even in a heated argument there is still compassion and you can care about a complete stranger? It i smuch appreciated.




    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post


    Um? We explain it? That seems pretty obvious to me.
    .
    Sarcasm much? we come back to that set apon feeling again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    I'm not seeing any degeneration I'm actually enjoying that this is a mature and calm discussion about some pretty heated and emotional issues. I appreciate your input. I value your opinion. I think you have every right to it. I also think you're wrong and I disagree with you. It doesn't mean I respect you any less
    .
    Surprisingly so am i, debate was my strong point at school, i forgot how much i missed it. Plus most of my time is spent with a 5 year old who ends most arguments with comments about farts.

    Also old men who act like they are 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    Likewise - I'm not meaning to offend you. I don't think you misunderstand me, and I don't think I misunderstand you. There's a difference between misunderstanding and disagreeing. I think we're disagreeing here.
    .
    It makes th eworld go round, its to late for me to remember the quote about it takes all sorts.

    I know you dont mean to offend but some times your words are pretty hurtfull. even without meaning it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    I guess because you're telling them that they can't call something extremely personal and very emotional by a name that makes sense and explains their own experience to them. That's a pretty silencing act...

    Your opinions, your feelings, you think etc doesn't change the fact that you're actively trying to impose your will for the term birthrape not to be used in relation to other women's experiences.
    I am not trying to impose on any one. I keep saying its my opinion, i feel.

    I feel like you are trying to shut my opinions down by arguing till i change my mind and quite frankly you are making me feel bad for having an opinion dfferent to yours.

    I think the main problem we are having is that i post then see oneyou have written and we go back and foreward. Again its the dynamics of a forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post
    Okay...so it wasn't a birth rape? So your experience was an obstetric assault, or obstetric violence, or whatever you'd like to term that...but that doesn't mean that OTHER WOMEN'S experiences AREN'T birthrape. Nobody is trying to force the term on you if it doesn't fit. So I'm not understanding what your objection to it being used in their circumstances is.
    .
    I never said they were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tam-I-Am View Post

    I'm very seriously not being passive-aggressive, rude, or trying to be hurtful in anyway. I'm sorry that I insulted you and hurt you. I didn't intend to do so, but accept that I did. I'm really trying to understand why it is that we seem to be on the same page but kind of...missing something by way of communication here.
    Its the back and foreward thing and the forum dynamic. Not being able to comunicate in real time with body language and voice cues is not conductive to a healthy debate.

    Im am glad that you thing we are on the same page but missing each other points.

    I am ignoring parts cause i fell we are going a round in circles a bit, i missed other parts of other posts cause i haev nothing constructive to say.

    And i am sorry for insulting your profesionalism but i do not think you should be telling other stories, so it offended me. Are they aware what they told you was not in confidence?

    If they are your friends than they probably assume that anyting you tell them is in trust, and even assume doctor patient privelidge, even when you are not their doctor. Peope find it hard to seperate the pshycologist with the friend.

    Notice i said I do not think, not you should not.

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    TamIam

    We should agree to disagree, we have hijacked the thread, oops, sorry, even if it was your thread i feel a bit bad.

    And i just dont seem to be making my points clear, reading back they dont realy say what i mean, which is odd as that is one of the things i am good at, Is 7 weeks too early to claim baby brain?

    I have enjoyed our discussion and hope there are no hard feelings, i certainly didnt not intend any harm.

    Plus i think my morning sickness is going so i can finaly get some sleep.
    Last edited by lonni; 18-01-2012 at 02:29. Reason: bloody spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    I have NEVER said that they are putting up with it, or implied it. Ever.
    Okay...well, it sounds very much like you did, and have. I can agree that that's not what you meant, but when you use the phrase "so they know they don't have to put up with it", can you understand how I've misinterpreted it that way?

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Anuses are genitals. All that you mentioned is of a sexual nature.

    The magic words - integral role - by them selves some are not rape, drugging is actually charged as assult.
    Likewise, drugging a woman in labour against her will is an assault, not birthrape - and it was never claimed otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Yes rape is prevented by education. Some women dont walk down tha alley drunk in the middle of the night.

    They dont leave their drinks alone or accept drinks from strangers

    Dont accept rides home from strangers or go home drunk with a few guys.

    Not all but some.
    None of these things cause rapes. Women out drinking in public places don't cause them to be raped. Them accepting rides from strangers doesn't cause rape. Them accepting drinks from strangers or them leaving their drinks unattended don't cause rapes. Them walking down dark alleys late at night don't cause rapes.

    And I think I understand now why it is that we seem to be having such a conflict of opinions when we also seem to be agreeing.

    You think women can prevent their own rapes. I think this is victim-blaming. I don't mean that you do it on purpose, or maliciously, or even with the understanding that what you are doing is victim-blaming, because most of society thinks the way that you do on this...but it's bollocks. Because at the end of the day, rapists cause rapes. And the vast, vast majority of rapes occur in a woman's own home or the house of somebody she knows, and are committed by her own partner or her ex-partner, or somebody else known to her. The number of 'woman walking drunk down a dark alley and dragged into a bush by a complete stranger' rapes that actually occur is so small as to be almost statistically insignificant. Women are doing all of those things to 'protect themselves' - and more. But even women in burqas who never leave the presences of a male relative in public or their own houses outside of daylight hours or drink alcohol or drive cars STILL get raped. Because they cannot prevent their own rapes. Only rapists can prevent rapes.

    Education doesn't help. We keep teaching girls all the things that they should supposedly be doing to protect themselves - and they're doing them - and the rates of rapes and sexual assaults continues to climb. Because those 'prevention' measures just don't work.

    Nor do they in hospitals.

    I know it's hard to accept, because it basically renders women in an almost completely powerless position. If we think we can control some of the circumstances, we can convince ourselves we're safer. It feels more secure. But it's not true - and what it does do is tell those women who didn't limit themselves in every imaginable way that there was SOMETHING she failed to do so she 'got herself raped'. Notice the total lack of rapist in that sentence, though?

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    No i mentined last week was the first tim ei had heard of it. No obviously did not disengage me, i am still here making valid points and arguments.
    Sorry, I missed that (that you'd seen it last week). You seemed pretty shocked by it tonight, which is why I gathered (incorrectly) that it was the first encounter you'd had with it. The term, not the lived experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    It doesnt feel like it, i am feeling a bit set apon, and i know you dont mean it that way, unfortunately that is the dynamics of a forum.
    I am genuinely sorry you're feeling set upon. You're right, I'm not intending it that way. I know some people find the breaking down of posts to be aggressive-seeming. I'm only trying to clarify exactly what I mean, exactly where. Not to intimidate or set upon you.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Every single persons experiences are different, they are not the same, and i am surprised that you would say they are.
    I have miscommunicated my meaning. I did not mean that one woman's experience is exactly the same as the next. I meant that one woman's experience of sexual assault or rape (standard definition) might feel exactly the same as her own experience of her birthrape. I understand that you personally don't - and Jenna, earlier in the thread (I think it was Jenna!) stated clearly that she doesn't - and that's absolutely fair enough. What I'm struggling to understand is your seeming denial that it is possible for other women to experience a sexual assault and a birthrape as both being sexual assaults.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Thank you. Dont you love how even in a heated argument there is still compassion and you can care about a complete stranger? It i smuch appreciated.
    I meant every word Your experiences sound hideous and I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy. And you're far from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Sarcasm much? we come back to that set apon feeling again.
    I was actually being serious. If somebody doesn't understand a term, you explain it to them. *shrug*. It's not that complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    Surprisingly so am i, debate was my strong point at school, i forgot how much i missed it. Plus most of my time is spent with a 5 year old who ends most arguments with comments about farts.

    Also old men who act like they are 5.
    That literally made me LOL



    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    It makes th eworld go round, its to late for me to remember the quote about it takes all sorts.

    I know you dont mean to offend but some times your words are pretty hurtfull. even without meaning it.
    Likewise...I have felt hurt by your words. Even where you clearly didn't mean to be hurtful or offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonni View Post
    I am not trying to impose on any one. I keep saying its my opinion, i feel.

    I feel like you are trying to shut my opinions down by arguing till i change my mind and quite frankly you are making me feel bad for having an opinion dfferent to yours.

    I think the main problem we are having is that i post then see oneyou have written and we go back and foreward. Again its the dynamics of a forum.
    The nature of debate is to try to convince the person that you're debating that your own opinion is right and theirs is wrong.

    I have taken something from yours - that there is a broader world of obstetric violence out there than 'simply' birthrape (of course there's nothing simple about it). However, that doesn't change my fundamental position that birthrape is an important and adequate term for a particular group of circumstances. I guess I see your argument a bit like say we shouln't use the term 'spousal rape' because it all falls under the umbrella of domestic violence, and that by using the term spousal rape we're just muddying the waters and turnign people off women's domestic violence issues. I just don't agree with that fundamental position. I think there is room for women to describe their own experiences in their own words without diminishing anybody else's experiences.

    I hope equally that you might have taken something from my posts, even if you don't agree with the whole lot - which you clearly don't. (But you should - Because I'm right Just kidding! ).

    I'm glad that you're not trying to impose your will on anybody else - and I understand it's your opinion (of course it is, you're writing it, who's else would it be? ) but that doesn't mitigate the fact that you're asking women to modify their own language around their own experiences and stated early on in the thread that the term birth rape is 'silly' and 'shouldn't be used'. Whilst that's obviously your own opinion you're airing it in a setting whereby women have been birthraped and are telling you about their experiences - and you are returning those opinions. That is, unfortunately, silencing regardless of your intent. And I don't believe for a second that you intend harm or hurt to women who have already suffered violence of any description - I can see that it's an area you're passionate about and have a lot of knowledge about. It's just that our opinions are differing on the details, I think, whilst agreeing overall.

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tam-I-Am For This Useful Post:

    1+1=5  (18-01-2012),Gandalf  (18-01-2012)


 

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