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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by sockstealingpoltergeist View Post
    It is illegal for us to close our boarders to these people, so it shouldn't even be a debate.
    Show me the legislation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Well. They have two choices. You go through the normal process and get accepted by Australia through the offshore application process where they would be granted permanent status - or, cut the corner and come to Australia by boat and only receive temporary status.
    This is the disincentive.
    And what a choice it is, live in fear, often in places where you have no hope and the wait is so long you know your children will be grown before you ever even think about moving on. Living in places where you women are and children raped, and there is barely any food, no sanitation etc.

    There are refugees in the world who are multi generational. Imagine having no home, no rights, no access to a real identity for generations. The horror some of these refugees experience in incomprehensible to most of us, the hopelessness and despair, must be unimaginable.

    They really should keep waiting it out though.
    Last edited by sockstealingpoltergeist; 18-12-2011 at 21:06.

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Show me the legislation.
    chapter 2 - International Refugee Law
    Rights of Refugees and asylum seekers

    A person who is a refugee has a number of important rights under the Refugee Convention, including:
    • the right to seek asylum in a country outside their country of origin which has agreed to be bound by the Refugee Convention;
    • the right not to be returned to the country where they have a well-founded fear of persecution;
    • the right not to be discriminated against or penalised because they are a refugee;
    • the right to equal access to the courts;
    • freedom of religion and movement;
    • the right to education and employment; and
    • access to travel documents.
    Article 31 of the Refugee Convention prohibits penalising asylum seekers based on the manner of their arrival into the country from which they are seeking protection.
    However, asylum seekers and refugees also have rights under other international agreements which are shared by the general population in countries party to these agreements. Simply complying with the rights outlined in the Refugee Convention does not satisfy a country’s duty to protect the general rights of asylum seekers and refugees under these other agreements.
    These agreements, all of which Australia is a party to, include the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (1966), the Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989), and the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhumane and Degrading Treatment or Punishment (1984).
    http://www.alhr.asn.au/refugeekit/chapter_2.html

  5. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to sockstealingpoltergeist For This Useful Post:

    Busy-Bee  (13-01-2012),Buttoneska  (18-12-2011),Gandalf  (19-12-2011),wrena  (19-12-2011)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sockstealingpoltergeist View Post
    And what a choice it is, live in fear, often in places where you have no hope and the wait is so long you know your children will be grown before you ever even think about moving on. Living in places where you women are and children raped, and there is barely any food, no sanitation etc.

    There are refugees in the world who are multi generational. Imagine having no home, no rights, no access to a real identity for generations. The horror some of these refugees experience in incomprehensible to most of us, the hopelessness and despair, must be unimaginable.

    They really should keep waiting it out though.
    I know the circumstances are not good at all. I agree with the picture that you paint, and I can understand why people would jump on a boat to come to Australia. This is not what the point is.
    The point is:
    1. It is dangerous to come by boat.
    2. Australia can only help so many refugees each year (about 14000 at the moment).
    3. Those that come by boat will only take spots available to others - probably those 'multi-generational' refugees that you mentioned.
    4. If we can deter people taking a dangerous journey, it will save lives - whilst at the same time not altering the number of people Australia accepts.

    I know the 'queue' is not orderly, I understand that. But I am of the opinion that those who are in most need would not be able to afford the $1000s for the boat trip, and I would much rather help those who are in the most dire need of our assistance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    I know the circumstances are not good at all. I agree with the picture that you paint, and I can understand why people would jump on a boat to come to Australia. This is not what the point is.
    The point is:
    1. It is dangerous to come by boat.
    2. Australia can only help so many refugees each year (about 14000 at the moment).
    3. Those that come by boat will only take spots available to others - probably those 'multi-generational' refugees that you mentioned.
    4. If we can deter people taking a dangerous journey, it will save lives - whilst at the same time not altering the number of people Australia accepts.

    I know the 'queue' is not orderly, I understand that. But I am of the opinion that those who are in most need would not be able to afford the $1000s for the boat trip, and I would much rather help those who are in the most dire need of our assistance.
    as far as I am aware in some countries, like Afghanistan and Iraq there are no ques, as there is no diplomatic representation for refugees and no where for these people to even have their applications considered.
    What should they do?

    Moreover compared to Europe we take very low number of refugees. How do you come to conclusion that we could take no more?

    This fact sheet might be helpful
    http://www.refugeeaction.org/downloa...king_myths.pdf

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    Did you read the legislation Father? It's good sock posted it after you asked for it hey

  9. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by sockstealingpoltergeist View Post
    as far as I am aware in some countries, like Afghanistan and Iraq there are no ques, as there is no diplomatic representation for refugees and no where for these people to even have their applications considered.
    What should they do?

    Moreover compared to Europe we take very low number of refugees. How do you come to conclusion that we could take no more?
    Well SSP. They didn't catch a boat from Iraq or Afghan did they. They happened to go through several different countries before arriving in Australia. These 'other' countries, will have had the facilities that you talk of.

    We are a small population comparatively. We can only do so much within our economic and environmental constraints. Our infrastructure is struggling as it is. Our population can only grow at a rate that we can absorb. And we can only support so many people (housing/medical/welfare payments).
    It might sound harsh but that is unfortunately how the world works.

  10. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chew the Mintie View Post
    Did you read the legislation Father? It's good sock posted it after you asked for it hey
    That is a convention.

    The Australia Migration Act 1958 says differently:

    MIGRATION ACT 1958 - SECT 14

    Unlawful non-citizens (1) A non-citizen in the migration zone who is not a lawful non-citizen is an unlawful non-citizen.
    (2) To avoid doubt, a non-citizen in the migration zone who, immediately before 1 September 1994, was an illegal entrant within the meaning of the Migration Act as in force then became, on that date, an unlawful non-citizen.
    And what is a "Lawful Non-Citizen"?

    MIGRATION ACT 1958 - SECT 13
    Lawful non-citizens (1) A non-citizen in the migration zone who holds a visa that is in effect is a lawful non-citizen.
    (2) An allowed inhabitant of the Protected Zone who is in a protected area in connection with the performance of traditional activities is a lawful non-citizen.
    If they don't have a Visa, they are unlawful according to Australian law.

  11. #69
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    Father there is a big myth that we are being swamped by boat people, the numbers are still very low, especially in comparison to other countries.

    I believe our infastructure isn't very good for all Australians and needs huge improvements, we need to stop supporting big business and the richest Australians and put our money into public education, hospitals, housing and health etc

    However refugees create employment, they create jobs and I read somewhere that refugees boost economies.

  12. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by sockstealingpoltergeist View Post
    Father there is a big myth that we are being swamped by boat people, the numbers are still very low, especially in comparison to other countries.

    I believe our infastructure isn't very good for all Australians and needs huge improvements, we need to stop supporting big business and the richest Australians and put our money into public education, hospitals, housing and health etc

    However refugees create employment, they create jobs and I read somewhere that refugees boost economies.
    You've gone a little off topic. I don't have a problem with refugees. We accept around 14000 of them a year.
    I just think that the government needs to do something to remove the incentive for people to jump on a boat and risk their lives. The people smuggling trade is disgusting (and illegal) and needs to be stopped.
    The deaths needs to be stopped.


 

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