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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opinionated View Post
    I don't believe that. Marriage is about the transferance of property, ownership and children. That's why most marriages were originally arranged. The love part is secondary.
    that only makes it even worse.

    it also means that marriage has already been removed from its original 'purpose', so father's point on this is moot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    To answer your first question - No I am not a homosexual.
    And no, I am not making a decision on their behalf. There is no decision to be made, as it is not legal. Nor do I have the power to make such a decision. The only thing I can do is vote for a party with a policy that I agree with. And I would hope that that party would then adhere to the policy that I had voted for.

    To the post above:
    Yes, you are entitled to that opinion. Of course you are. It is not discrimination to have an opinion. It may be controversial, but not necessarily discrimination. It shows how dangerous the current system has become, where people can't make a comment without people throwing out the 'discrimination', 'homophobia', or 'racist' card.
    Am I being discriminatory against the young by saying that 17 year olds should not be allowed to get married? Is this in breach of their 'human rights'?

    Which leads me onto the 'human rights' card. Is marriage a human right? Really? I have had a bit of look at some human rights websites, and the 'right to marry' really isn't a player. If it is a human right then why can't 5 year olds get married. Wouldn't stopping them getting married by your definition be against their 'human rights' too? You are a human at 7 years of age afterall. Can you name another 'human right' that is not applicable to a 7 year old?

    In regard to criminalising infidelity and divorce, I would be happy with that. I think marriage has lost some of it's meaning in recent decades. It used to be 'till death do us part', but this doesn't seem the case anymore. And I am very much against infidelity, that I would not have a problem if that was illegal - because in my eyes, it is. So I am not just 'hung up on' the male and female part only.

    This aside, I have no problem with what people do behind closed doors (provided it is legal), I just don't think that the institution of marriage should be changed from what it was originally intended for.
    But the question IS whether it should be legal- and you, a non-homosexual , are saying no, it should not, despite it having no impact on you whatsoever because you are not part of that group.
    Your argument re children getting married is not really relevant. We are clearly all talking about consenting adults. As for marriage not being a human right, I'm not sure what kind of websites you have visited but there is plenty of others who think differently.

    "Article 16, Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR):
    Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution."
    For more than a decade, this non-discrimination principle has been interpreted by UN treaty bodies and numerous inter-governmental human rights bodies as prohibiting discrimination based on gender or sexual orientation. Non-discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation has therefore become an internationally recognized principle and many countries have responded by bringing their domestic laws into line with this principle in a range of spheres including partnership rights.

    It doesn't get much clearer than that Father. Marriage equality is indeed a human rights issue.

    You would be happy to ban divorce? Really? What about domestic violence victims? You'd make them stay married to their abuser? ...interesting.

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  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    To answer your first question - No I am not a homosexual.
    And no, I am not making a decision on their behalf. There is no decision to be made, as it is not legal. Nor do I have the power to make such a decision. The only thing I can do is vote for a party with a policy that I agree with. And I would hope that that party would then adhere to the policy that I had voted for.

    To the post above:
    Yes, you are entitled to that opinion. Of course you are. It is not discrimination to have an opinion. It may be controversial, but not necessarily discrimination. It shows how dangerous the current system has become, where people can't make a comment without people throwing out the 'discrimination', 'homophobia', or 'racist' card.
    Am I being discriminatory against the young by saying that 17 year olds should not be allowed to get married? Is this in breach of their 'human rights'?

    Which leads me onto the 'human rights' card. Is marriage a human right? Really? I have had a bit of look at some human rights websites, and the 'right to marry' really isn't a player. If it is a human right then why can't 5 year olds get married. Wouldn't stopping them getting married by your definition be against their 'human rights' too? You are a human at 7 years of age afterall. Can you name another 'human right' that is not applicable to a 7 year old?

    In regard to criminalising infidelity and divorce, I would be happy with that. I think marriage has lost some of it's meaning in recent decades. It used to be 'till death do us part', but this doesn't seem the case anymore. And I am very much against infidelity, that I would not have a problem if that was illegal - because in my eyes, it is. So I am not just 'hung up on' the male and female part only.

    This aside, I have no problem with what people do behind closed doors (provided it is legal), I just don't think that the institution of marriage should be changed from what it was originally intended for.
    That suggestion is ridiculous. The Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989) outlines the fundamental rights of children, including the right to be protected from economic exploitation and harmful work, from all forms of sexual exploitation and abuse, and from physical or mental violence.

    Laws are put in place to restrict the marriage of a child to another until a child’s maturity has evolved enough to eliminate as much exploitation as possible, many of which would be a bi-product of marriage at such an age. As you know a child of 5 is unable to make such an impacting decision. An adult is able to, and should have the right to make that decision for themselves, be it one of same sex orientation or not.
    The right to equality before the law is one of the most fundamental of all human rights principles yet the Marriage Act is among a raft of Australian laws which deny this basic right to gay and lesbian couples and their children.

  5. #84
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    UDHR article 12: the right to marry and start a family
    UDHR article 2: the right to have all human rights granted regardless of race, religion, economic status or any other factor (I.e. sexuality).

    I don't know them verbatim and I'm not on a computer, but yes, the right to marry is a human right and all human rights are expected to granted regardless of any status.
    Last edited by Mod-pegasus; 14-12-2011 at 02:22.

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    I also don't understand why it effects hetros? I'm hetro, I married a man....but how does gays marrying change anything between Dh and I? Hetros have made a right mockery of marriage ourselves, yet two same sex people that love each other are worse than Brittany Spears and her 12 hour marriage?

    I think sometimes how I would feel, completely hetro and if I was born into a society of 90% gay and 10% straight, where I was only allowed to marry a woman. That the man I loved and I were shunned and our rights to marriage taken away. I could never marry a woman just to 'fit in' with society, so I would spend my life, totally in love with a man and not being able to have it legally acknowledged. That would be a terrible feeling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witwicky View Post
    That suggestion is ridiculous. The Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989) outlines the fundamental rights of children, including the right to be protected from economic exploitation and harmful work, from all forms of sexual exploitation and abuse, and from physical or mental violence.

    Laws are put in place to restrict the marriage of a child to another until a child’s maturity has evolved enough to eliminate as much exploitation as possible, many of which would be a bi-product of marriage at such an age. As you know a child of 5 is unable to make such an impacting decision. An adult is able to, and should have the right to make that decision for themselves, be it one of same sex orientation or not.
    The right to equality before the law is one of the most fundamental of all human rights principles yet the Marriage Act is among a raft of Australian laws which deny this basic right to gay and lesbian couples and their children.
    I agree- the child marriage issue is nothing more than a strawman on Father's part.

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  10. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    I agree- the child marriage issue is nothing more than a strawman on Father's part.
    I have no doubt but felt I should address it nevertheless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witwicky View Post
    I have no doubt but felt I should address it nevertheless.
    agreed- thank you

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    I thought I should add that Australia has ratified the convention of civil and political rights, which echoes the sentiments of the UDHR with regards to marriage, which makes the right to marry for all in Australia a matter of international law as ratification of the CCPR makes it subject to international law for violations.

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    Seventeen year olds (and sixteen year olds) can actually get married in at least some states, as it happens...

    Strangely enough, those howling about "the sanctity of marriage" - including the church - have traditionally either ignored or opposed moves to outlaw this.


 

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