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  1. #11
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    everyone and thanks starfish for starting this thread. When I read it I couldn't not join it.
    I only started IVF last year but I am already up to 7 fresh cycles (actually 8 as one was cancelled just the day of EPU because of the Brisbane flood) and 3 frozen ones. All BFN with one assumed chemical after my FET #1 (basically it was just based on my feeling/symptoms of being pregnant and AF arrived before BT day so technically it was a BFN). This in addition to 5 years of trying the natural way. I've never seen a double line in all my TTC career and I am also at a point where I envy people that have m/c or chemical pregnancies cos at least they can say they had a BFP!!!

    When we started TTC I didn't think it was going to take me this way. And I thought "well I have been unlucky that I can't conceive naturally, surely I can't be so unlucky twice that also IVF won't work?". Well here I am, 7 cycles later and still counting. IVF has become a routine in my life to the point that I take that into account in any plans for the future (e.g. holidays) like if I will be doing IVF for the rest of my life. That's unfortunately how it feels for me. I can't imagine the day I will get a BFP.

    But I am not giving up. Until someone can prove me without doubts that I cannot have my own baby I will keep trying. I have eggs, we make good embryos, endo is gone and NK cells are under control. I can't see why I should give up. My FS has started talking about ED but I told him I am not ready yet. There is always time to go the ED route, but I only have a limited time to try with my own eggs.

    Also when I think about my embryos (or future babies as I see them) they only have me fighting for them and no one else. Dh is not going to fight for them, FS is not going to fight for them. I am the only chance they have to become babies and to have a future. I own it to them to keep trying .

    My message to you all, don't give up and you're not on your own, there's many IVF warriors out there, I just think that people often stop posting because the disappointment is too big and seeing everyone else moving on hurts. But we are still there

  2. #12
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    Hi guys, saw this thread and thought I'd pop in.

    Big loves to my dear friend Lily xx

    I'm preparing myself for cycle number 20.
    Really not sure how many more after this I'm capable of putting myself through, should this fail.

    I have truly been there and done that in regards to drugs and types of cycles etc.

    I wish each of you the all luck in the world to achieve your dreams.

    Love Marzi xx

  3. #13
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    Wow! One of the things I was keen to see was how many of us LTIVFWW's would come out of the woodwork, and there are quite a few of us! Nice not to feel alone for once hey?

    No Bless YOU Spot, for coming out in solidarity

    Felicita, I think the universe is going to cope! Lots of different scenarios bring us to the long term path and none of them are easy whether you've had 40 embryos tx or 4. with stim no. 6
    Vesper, you might have missed it in my last post We are doing the preliminary counselling and medical appts for going down the ED path with my sister. So lots to be discussed/decided/thought about so I have no idea at this stage when no. 8 will be but FS has suggested either another PGD cycle due to the chromosomal problems my embies have shown or ED. But hopefully will be doing one or the other in the next few months

    Lilybaby, It's funny you say that about saizen I had my worst cycle ever on it (and I had 10 shots all up. for the bank balance!) I also know of at least 1 other person who had a similar result Maybe a coincidence but I personally wouldn't bother with it again.

    My last cycle was an absolute shocker, only 3 eggs retrieved (usually get at least 8) and pretty much anything that could go wrong did go wrong. I also felt I was oversuppressed on the OCP which didn't help. I know cycles can varying widely and a bad result 1 cycle doesn't necessarily mean the next will be but TBH it really shook my confidence and that combined with my absolute fear of having another MC is leading us to at least explore the ED option with my sister. Also influencing us is that the offer will only be on the table for a short while as she is keen to try for no. 2 soon.

    I reckon it took about a month for my DHEA symptoms to kick in. Didn't get any headaches but had problems sleeping cos I was taking it too late in the day and then of course the dreaded greasy hair and bad skin combo which is still with me 10 months on! All worth it of course if it gets you the prize!

    Betelgeuse, I think you are 100% right about the reasons people stop posting, it just gets too painful. Seems inevitable when the transfer no's start getting up there FS's start to raise the ED flag whether you're ready for it or not! I actually brought it up with my FS 1st but he didn't necessarily disagree! After my 2nd pregnancy in 6 months made it to the 7wk scan only to discover yet another blighted ovum (and both pregnancies ended in D&C's ) my sister approached me about being an ED. TBH I wouldn't wish a MC on anyone hun, I hope your 1st BFP is the stickiest of BFP's. How lucky are your embies to have you fighting in their corner! That is the kind of determination that gets people over the line for sure!

    Marzi, you are a true IVF Warrior Woman Hope you will stick around with us, you have a lot of wisdom to share re: protocols, drugs etc. Anything new you are trialling for no. 20? Hope this is your lucky number!

    Katiana and BK, thank you so much for dropping in. It is just the encouragement those LTTTC need to see that others have had success after a long battle with the IVF gods. Congratulations to you both
    A question I have been pondering for a while:
    I have been thinking about the reasons why embies don't stick when all other variables have been controlled for such as autoimmune probs, lining & structural issues etc. I would tend to think it is because of chromosomal abnormalities (egg or sperm or course) and we know that quite a high percentage of eggs will be abnormal particularly as we age What I struggle with and am interested in your thoughts; is why some of them don't try to implant at all hence straight out BFN and others do (chem preg) and yet others still implant and start to develop only to end in MC/pregnancy loss???
    Last edited by Starf1sh; 10-07-2011 at 20:24.

  4. #14
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    To Marzi and the other lovelies,

    There use to be a women who posted here that finally got her bfp at 40 on her 18th cycle, and then again on cycle 19 at 42!

  5. #15
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    Hello All,

    I'm the person Blondkelli is talking about. I still pop in to check on everyone, but I don't post as much now - I don't know how relevant my story is to anyone anymore ... but I hope it helps in this thread.

    Almost exactly as Blondkelli says ( Kel - congrats on your miracle ) after 16 unsuccessful cycles a nurse at my clinic suggested baby aspirin. No luck for cycle #17 (stim) but cycle 18 & cycle 19 (when DS1 was 9mths old) were successful - thank God. I was almost 39 when we got our first BFP and I was 41 when I delivered DS2

    They are worth everything it took, but it was a hell of a road and I still get teary when I think about the journey and the luck we had in the end.

    Sometimes, you only need a hand to get through one more cycle - cause that's the one that will bring you your precious, precious bundle.

    Goodluck to you all hope the next one is THE ONE

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starf1sh View Post
    A question I have been pondering for a while:
    I have been thinking about the reasons why embies don't stick when all other variables have been controlled for such as autoimmune probs, lining & structural issues etc. I would tend to think it is because of chromosomal abnormalities (egg or sperm or course) and we know that quite a high percentage of eggs will be abnormal particularly as we age What I struggle with and am interested in your thoughts; is why some of them don't try to implant at all hence straight out BFN and others do (chem preg) and yet others still implant and start to develop only to end in MC/pregnancy loss???
    I have some opinions on this (but then I've got opinions on nearly everything).

    OK, so we're discussing why the embryos which don't go to term but stop early don't all stop at the same point. We're all aware of the phenomenon since some embies are expected to stop growing in the lab before transfer day, and so stopping after transfer, or after implantation, or after a few weeks or a few months is an extension of this to varying degrees.

    First for the super-early stops. An egg contributes more to the embryo than just chromosomes. It has the proteins (microtubules) in place to effect the first cell division. It has the machinery for reading RNA and making proteins. It has pre-formed RNA made from the mother's DNA, and the proteins made from these RNA are more concentrated on one side of the egg or embryo and less concentrated on the opposite side and this difference in protein concentration is absolutely necessary for proper development. Different RNAs set up gradients of these early proteins in different orientations in the egg. The mother's genes and the way the egg has been set up internally have a huge influence on development up to 8 cell stage. The sperm is also important early on in a non-chromosome way - the first division usually produces one cell on the side of the egg that the sperm entered and a second cell of the far side of the egg. The cell closest to the site of sperm entry is more likely to go one to form the embryo, while the cell on the far side is more likely to form placenta. Any changes in these non-chromosome components can lead to changes (including stopping) in embryo development.

    Then after 8 cells the embryo starts relying entirely using its own chromosomes to direct protein production and growth, so obviously this is another potential stopping point. During growth the embryo needs to make different proteins depending on the stage it's at. So things might go fine up to a point, and then it needs to use a new protein and discovers that the DNA instructions for that protein are broken, so development will stop.

    Sometimes the damage isn't all or nothing, but instead results in a reduction in efficiency of embryo growth and development. If the emby happens to have a lot of little reductions to efficiency then the combined effect may halt all growth at some point, but the exact timing of that depends on which proteins are affected and also the importance of the affected proteins at that particular stage of development.

    Also, for some genes it depends on whether you inherit them from the mother or the father (genetic imprinting). If the proper imprinting pattern isn't applied to the eggs or sperm correctly then the embryo will try to use twice as much or none of some important genes and neither of those options end well. The effect on embryo growth will only be apparent when it is time to use those particular genes.

    The all-too-common miscarriage at the end of the first trimester corresponds with the timing of the ovaries handing control for maintaining the pregnancy over to the placenta.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to felicita For This Useful Post:

    SpotTheOcelot  (11-07-2011),Starf1sh  (11-07-2011)

  8. #17
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    Felicita, that is a far more detailed and helpful explanation than my FS has ever been able to give me, who has consistently said it is most likely because of 'abnormal' eggs. Also helps me understand why with PGD biopsy and karyotyping of the tissue after D&C some of our embies have had trisomies, and different ones! Thanks!

    I think about this often, but isn't it amazing that anyone gets pregnant AT ALL with all the things that have to go right!???
    Last edited by Starf1sh; 11-07-2011 at 08:13.

  9. #18
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    Tell me about it, starfish. It's amazing any of us are here at all!!

    Felicita- we have had a lot of 'multinucleated' embryos on day 1 or 2. FS said this is unlikely to be due to dh's chromosome issue and more likely to do with me. From what you've said above, that now makes sense to me. As if it's not hard enough with one problem. Grrrrr.

  10. #19
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    "Isn't it amazing that anyone gets pregnant AT ALL with all the things that have to go right!???"

    Unfortunately biology and evolution doesn't really care about individuals like us. It just cares if enough of the next generation are produced by the species in general even if there have to be bazillions of attempts before success.

    I meant to ask you, Starf1sh, when you cut your skin does it heal quickly (the same or quicker than people you know)?
    And because it might be rude to ask like that I'll also give the reasons behind my question - all speculation on my part.
    Since you've mentioned more (and more varied) trisomies than other people (although I don't know if you actually have more than others or instead have more information than others) I've been wondering for a couple of weeks if your spindle proteins that separate your DNA when your cells divide might be more fragile than other peoples. I ask about skin because that's a tissue that's always dividing and easy to observe.
    It's a question out of curiosity so don't start getting excited if it seems to be an answer. IF they are more fragile there's probably nothing that can be changed to improve it. The two first guesses for why would be because it's probably because the gene/s you're using has/have a typo in it causing the protein to break easily, or because one gene is not working at all so you only have half as much of the protein so it can't pull with as much force or might break from bearing double the load. Maybe a high protein diet or amino acid supplementation might assist if there are any clues as to where it breaks (if it indeed does so at all). But the fact that you have a body shows that (if this problem exists) the system works well enough in most circumstances, just possibly not well enough to put great expectations on every single cell/egg.

  11. #20
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    Felicita, I love a good theory! Can't say I have noticed my wound healing is any different to anyone else's. I have been trying to include protein with every meal for a while now but can't hurt to keep an eye on this more vigilantly. I would say I definitely have more info than most due to the testing I've been able to have/ some would say been unfortunate enough to have had!

    I think like a few people here my situation is a little left of centre. It's not unusual for us to get a 100% fert rate and to always get blasts that have been good enough to transfer. I think this kind of pattern has also been the case for Betelgeuse and Lilybaby? But as we know just because you get blasts doesn't mean it will translate into a healthy pregnancy However, I am open to hearing new ideas or things to try like all of us here!

    Obviously having so many pregnancy losses through mc and chem preg is not normal and perhaps I am on the right path with ED. As you say there is probably little that can be done to improve it if the problem is with spindle proteins? Hmmmm food for thought
    Last edited by Starf1sh; 11-07-2011 at 16:11. Reason: spelling!


 

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