Circumcision [Archive] - Bub Hub Pregnancy & Parenting Forum

the_queen

12-01-2006, 12:48

Hi Melissa,

I agree with Sarie, this might turn into a controversial argument..... I guess everyone has strong feelings either way about this issue.

I'm 23 weeks pregnant, and DH and I have decided not to circumcise if it's a boy. For me, I researched it quite a lot, and did not come to the decision lightly - my hubby, on the other hand, has this idea that circumcision makes the penis shorter (I don't think that's technically true....) so he doesn't want any son of his to be deprived of a long penis :rolleyes: !!

There's a couple of websites around which have video's and photo's, showing an actual circumcision being done. I would suggest you have a look at them.

I hope you get some good information on both sides of the fence about this one, so you and your husband can make an informed decision.
:)

PS your bubby is very cute!!!

xkwzit

12-01-2006, 12:51

Hi Mum2Jacob
Just to let you you know, we have had lengthy discussions (sometimes heated :o ) about this in the past. If you go into the circumcision section and adjust the settings below the thread list, you can view threads from the whole year (not just the last month, which is the default). This will allow you to trawl through all the posts made so far.

I'm sure you'll find an answer that's right for you.

Cheers

cosmic

12-01-2006, 13:40

Hi Melissa,

I'm happy to admit that I'm one who is opposed to circumcision and I came to that conclusion after spending a considerable amount of time reading up on the pros and cons. The reason that not many doctors do it is that all the medical associations, after extensive research, have now stated categorically that there is no medical benefit to routine infant circumcision.

While some mums still choose to circumcise their boys, they are definitely in the minority. While statistics vary from state to state, across all of Australia only around 12-15% of boys are circumcised these days. Lots of dads want their boy done because they are under the mistaken impression that if they aren't they will be 'different' when what they don't realise is that it is the circumcised boys who are now in the minority and who will be different.

Many parents also think that circumcision will reduce the likelihood of infection when this is not the case at all. There is always a very slight chance that a little boy will have problems with infection, like Katherine's little boy did, but they are very few - so to circumcise them 'just in case' is a bit like taking a baby's tonsils or appendix out as soon as it is born just in case they get infected later. Not very logical!

And despite the number of people who seem to think that it's better to have them done as a baby so they won't remember it, it has been shown that small babies DO feel pain from the procedure. Their stress levels increase and it has been suggested in studies that even if they don't cry, that could be because they have gone into a kind of shock. :(

I think if you asked any grown man if he would like to have someone take a knife to his penis, he'd tell you in no uncertain terms what he thinks about that so for the life of me I can't work out why people think it is any different for a little baby. Especially when there is absolutely no reason for it!

If you have any specific questions about the procedure or want any stats on infection etc, JohnC is our resident expert and no doubt he'll be along to reply to your post sometime soon. :)

Mamaduke

12-01-2006, 16:10

Before I had my first son I was all for circumcision...there was no way I would have allowed my son to go through life without being circumcised...

and then he came into this world 4 weeks early weighing a tiny 4lb 1oz...

and I just looked at the most beautiful creature that God ever created...

and decided there and then that NO-ONE was going to sever any part of this perfect child without a VERY GOOD medical reason...(and I'm yet to find one, so don't bother debating it with me!)

What you do with your child is your business IMO, but I could NEVER, after setting eyes on both of my beautiful boys, forgive myself if we'd have gone through with it.
There are countries that circumcise their baby girls and we, as a 'civilised' country find this abhorrent, we find the docking of puppy's tails needless and illegal, yet we continue to circumcise [emotive word modified] our poor little boys.

reAllytee

12-01-2006, 16:19

Im a minority i also got my boy done. My bubs was approx 2mths old & i made sure he had pain relief used & his procedure was done using the plastibell device, so if you want to ask any questions feel free to PM me.
I dont push either way i think its each parents choice as to what they choose just like bf & the likes.
Look into all your options JohnC gives great info on here without getting nasty as many others do as its a rather heated topic.

cosmic

12-01-2006, 16:46

There are countries that circumcise their baby girls and we, as a 'civilised' country find this abhorrent, we find the docking of puppy's tails needless and illegal, yet we continue to circumcise [emotive word modified] our poor little boys.
I think this is a really valid point. In countries where baby girls are circumcised, they give all the same reasons that we hear about for boys (hygiene etc), yet we wouldn't dream of doing it to a girl.
And I think most of us are pretty comfortable with the term "female genital mutilation" in reference to girls being circumcised, so it's interesting that such descriptions are considered offensive when we refer to the same procedure in relation to boys.

[A clarification: the word in question is considered accusatory and inflammatory in this context as we have people contributing to this thread from both sides of the argument. We like to encourage open exchange of views on the hub without generating ill will.]

nemosmum

12-01-2006, 17:27

We had orlando done at 5 weeks and to be completely honest I would never do it again :( I regret it all the time!

I think we made a very serious error in judgement and our little boy has to live with it for the rest of his life........makes me feel like we have robbed him of something very important- the right to choose for himself when he is older as it is after all his body.

If you do decide to do it, just make sure you are ready to deal with the consequences :) good luck with everything and pm me if you want to chat about it further.

Sarah

JohnC

12-01-2006, 17:39

i'm looking into it as I might want to get my son circumcised

Hi,

as xkwizit said, there is plenty of information that has passed through this forum. but perhaps you could add your bit by telling us why you might want to get your son circumcised.

tx, john

Mamaduke

12-01-2006, 18:11

I'm sorry, I don't want to get off track or start an argument but the word that I used in a previous post was modified due to it being 'emotive'...
FYI...
Word removed Deprived of, or having lost, an important part; word removed.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Please don't edit my posts when I was NOT being emotional, I was stating a fact.

JohnC

12-01-2006, 18:52

On the term [in question], I earlier posted a line of argument (in cultural blindness (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=77762#post77762)) describing the term as "unhelpful" on the basis that parents (of boys and girls) obviously don't think of their decision in that way.

ps this of course does not invalidate the dictionary definition, which is valid,

Kaylene

12-01-2006, 19:45

Hi,
I think im a little old fashioned, maybe if daddy has the chop then the baby should too? Otherwise I wouldn�t mess with it.
Good luck in your decision
K

Mamaduke

12-01-2006, 19:46

Hi,
I think im a little old fashioned, maybe if daddy has the chop then the baby should too? Otherwise I wouldn�t mess with it.
Good luck in your decision
K
My best friend's mum had a mastectomy...any thoughts on that?:confused:

draught

12-01-2006, 21:15

Let's play nice people - not all circ threads have to end in tears and a padlock on the thread.

cobysmummy

12-01-2006, 21:39

degslou

12-01-2006, 21:41

hello there,

i hav been there & had my say on circumcision b4, & i found some people 2 b helpful & some 2 b against it. i hav had both my boys done, son #1 at 2wks of age & son #2 at 5wks of age, both were done with no complications. feel free 2 pm me with any questions, i will try 2 help, best of luck :)

wattle

13-01-2006, 04:41

I wonder if that's like yin and yang.:confused:

nemosmum

13-01-2006, 05:43

I wonder if that's like yin and yang.:confused:

Maybe in a parallel universe Cath :D

willsmum

13-01-2006, 05:51

I really don't want to get anyone off-side, but GEEZ!!!! There aren't enough circ thread in here already that get everyone all stirred up and nasty?

How about just reading all the other responses in all the other threads before you started another reason for everyone to get all hot under the collar.

I can't believe there are any opinions out there that haven't been stated in another thread in the circ section.

Sorry. But these are some of themost heated threads and there are more than enough already.

xkwzit

13-01-2006, 08:34

Carlyb
I didn't modify that post because you were being emotional, I was concerned about the emotional response your wording would elicit from other users.

We try to be an informative and supportive community and like JohnC has said, stong emotional wording is unhelpful in a rational discussion about the pros and cons of circumcision. We don't have to agree with each other, but "Messages should be polite and friendly" (from bubhub terms and conditions).

I had modified that very word in the infections thread only a few days ago. I'm modifying this thread in a consistent way. This topic is often a mine field, so moderators pay special attention to trying to keep it a discussion, rather than a fight. We are trying to safeguard the atmosphere of the hub.

If you're still unsatisfied, feel free to PM me or Bubhub.

rynosmum

13-01-2006, 12:23

Before I had children, I had always planned that any sons would be circumcised - this was with no research. I just figured it was a pretty standard thing that most boys had done.

When we did have a little boy, both our OB and Paediatrician were against it and told us their opinions - they did offer to pass on the name of a Dr for us if we wanted to continue though.

I looked at my perfect little boy that we had dreamt about for so long and both DH and I quickly agreed not to have him done. We weren't faced with any true positives about the procedure and result, but did face the negative of putting our son through something which we deemed unnecessary. We have no regrets and any future sons will be left 'as God intended' as well.

Best of luck with your decision - we can all give our advice but it is ultimately your decision.

SugarBlossom

13-01-2006, 12:37

Just to add my 2 cents......I never have and never will understand why people would voluntarily circumcise :confused:

JohnC

13-01-2006, 13:22

i got my lil man done... only because his father is done... i was against it at the time but now it doesnt bother me...

they dont "chop" these days... the doctor i went to gave use emla cream to put on his penis before we left home.. then he put a plastibell under his foreskin and tied it with string... to cut of the circulation... then in a few days it falls of and he is circumsised...

i sure u didnt want to start a debate ... it is urs and ur partners choice... dont let anyone talk to either way...

This must be the third thread where this has come up, so pay attention please ;) - Plastibell circumcision involves the excision (cutting off) of the foreskin. This is surgery on a child, not ringbarking a tree!

I presented a non-emotive description of the procedure from the MJA in bits and pieces (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=72453#post72453) with a follow-up specific reply in curiouser and curiouser (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=74030#post74030) to Helen who had made this same incorrect point in almost precisely the same words ("tie it with string and its all done.. 3-7 days later it falls off and circumsised he is...").

But how can you not notice (posting by braille, perhaps)? Two hours before surgery you apply EMLA cream to the foreskin, and following surgery you get home and apply betadine to the wound and the previously inaccessible glans. I'm perplexed :confused:

littlepickle

13-01-2006, 14:34

I dont really think it is necessarily fair to be getting angy at mum2jacob for starting the posts, we have all been new to bubhub at some point and not necessarily known where to find information on previous posts etc. But Mum2jacob has asked for opinions, opinions on circumcision, why do these threads have to always end in people attacking each other, I just wonder if it is possible to be factual rather than emotional or personal when someone asks for advice. I am anti circumcision, that is my opinion, I am quite happy to talk about the reasons why I dont agree with circumcision, but I am also not about to attack another member for their views and opinions. People will always make their own decisions whether we agree with them or not. All we can do is give educated advice to the person asking for it.

jaydensmum

13-01-2006, 14:44

I totally agree with littlepickle. People have the right to state their opinions without being threatened or attacked by others words. Our country states clearly that we are a country of freedom of speech.

jaydensmum

reAllytee

13-01-2006, 23:26

But how can you not notice (posting by braille, perhaps)? Two hours before surgery you apply EMLA cream to the foreskin, and following surgery you get home and apply betadine to the wound and the previously inaccessible glans. I'm perplexed :confused:

With all due respect JohnC as i do know there is an incision done etc my doctor did explain all of this properly as well as me looking it all up BUT when i got home i wasnt to add betadine to the wound as it was already covered up with appropriate cloths etc by the doctor to which i wasnt to remove till the following day when i started his salt baths & again i was NOT to use betadine on my doctors request not sure if this is right but as i was bathing bubs in a salt bath anywhere from 3 to 4 times daily it was kept well cleaned. Now when i did remove these & bath him his foreskin was still there hanging over the plasti-bell this over the course of time shrivelled & then came off with the plastibell so maybe this is why cobysmummy doesnt understand the incision procedure as well as possibly having a doctor who didnt advise of this.

I totally agree with littlepickle. People have the right to state their opinions without being threatened or attacked by others words. Our country states clearly that we are a country of freedom of speech.
Here here ! :D

hayleylea

14-01-2006, 07:24

I had my son done at 5 weeks of age and wouldnt change the decision. I researched it greatly and talked about it with alot of people and my partner and i decided that WE wanted it done. I dont have a problem with people that dont want to get it done if they have a problem with me for getting it done then so be it....:) I stayed with Cooper while he had it done and he cried for all of 15 seconds and had no problems after it. If you want to pm me then feel free.

Heids

14-01-2006, 08:46

Good Luck on your decision as I think it is a personal choice !

In my family we are actually the odd ones out by not getting him circumcised :eek:
( 5 of his cousins are aged under 2 1/2 )

The whole way through my pregnancy we were defiantly going tooooooo and were going to get it done ASAP....... BUT once born we had the conversation again and decided not to.

I read up on the stats where 85% are not these days and as 'the_queen' says about her husband, mine tooooooo didn't want Brandon deprived of a shorter peepee.......... LOL.... But personally I would like and hope he will be the same as the boys at school.

I have learnt to shut my mouth about the conversation around family members now, as my MUM who is a nurse :confused: keeps going oooon about infection ( which I think is a load of cr@p ) and also not being the same as Daddy's ! I feel she is stuck back in the 60's sometimes and its a no win situation :(

Good luck in your decision in deciding whether you boy will be a 'helmet head' or 'squid'........ heehee :p

Hugs Heids

jacks mum

14-01-2006, 10:04

Hi, We said we would get our baby done if we had a boy. When he was born we put it off due to other peoples comments. At 3 months we got him circumcised and if we have another boy I would do it again but this time earlier. It is definitely up to you and your DH. I found in the end not to even bring it up and just do what you want. I read the pros and cons and I thought the pros outweighed the cons. I did find that only 2 Drs in Brisbane do the procedure with the plastibell. Hope this helps and am willing to answer any questions too.

JohnC

14-01-2006, 10:08

i wasnt to add betadine to the wound as it was already covered up with appropriate cloths etc by the doctor to which i wasnt to remove till the following day when i started his salt baths & again i was NOT to use betadine on my doctors request not sure if this is right but as i was bathing bubs in a salt bath anywhere from 3 to 4 times daily it was kept well cleaned. Now when i did remove these & bath him his foreskin was still there hanging over the plasti-bell this over the course of time shrivelled & then came off with the plastibell so maybe this is why cobysmummy doesnt understand the incision procedure as well as possibly having a doctor who didnt advise of this.

Just to clarify, I had mentioned the betadine coz from earlier posts it appeared cobysmummy had used Russell - who advises his patients to use it on both the wound and the glans. The amount of foreskin remaining after the procedure does depend on the doctor. It is generally advised to excise as close to the ligature as possible.

annie71

14-01-2006, 15:42

Hi all,
I have just read through this whole thread and Im not sure were the nasty mean posts are. Yes there are people who are strongly against circumcision and they are entiltled to state their reasons why. It's not a personal attack.

I am one of these people, and I don't think it is a personal choice for the parents I actually think it should be illegal and only done if there is a specific medical reason to do so. I won't ramble on about why I strongly feel this way as most arguements you have all heard before.

Im sorry if this offends people but like I said above it is not a personal attack. This is a forum and I am expressing my opinion.

What Im finding in this thread is a lack of reasons for the arguement. Alot of mums have said they researched both sides and decieded to circumcise but have not stated what reasons swayed them to this decission.

reAllytee

14-01-2006, 21:24

Just to clarify, I had mentioned the betadine coz from earlier posts it appeared cobysmummy had used Russell - who advises his patients to use it on both the wound and the glans. The amount of foreskin remaining after the procedure does depend on the doctor. It is generally advised to excise as close to the ligature as possible.

Ok no probs i hadnt realised she had spoken about it before this & maybe she followed a similar procedure to myself which would tell me why she felt there wasnt an incision IYKWIM.

What Im finding in this thread is a lack of reasons for the arguement. Alot of mums have said they researched both sides and decieded to circumcise but have not stated what reasons swayed them to this decission.

Many of us have gone over this in other threads which has caused personal attacks thats why a lot are unwilling to go back into this. Yes there are those that have been misguided by doctors which i find sad but to them thats their reasoning & why they choose to have it done as they feel they are doing the right thing.
I myself know there is pretty much the same deal of getting infections either way circumcision doesnt change anything in that regards as well as the same with AIDS or even STD's. My father worked in the merchant navy & i heard nasty stories as well as having 4 of my male friends at school need to have circumcisions between the ages of 13yrs & 17yrs due to various problems not just infections wasnt much fun.
I researched the procedures what would be done & how thats what i mean by researched i cant speak for the other mothers. I also went by my beliefs & yes the "daddy had it done" which im quite happy to admit to. Not one single point swayed me everything as a whole including daddy's thoughts, wishes & ideas on the matter.
Even if misguided or the likes all we really want is to do the right thing as it isnt a case of us wanting to harm our sons. So people can dislike us & our actions all they like we are just doing what we think is best in our minds. I dont go running around the streets preaching to people to do either as thats not my choice to make for others.

draught

15-01-2006, 05:46

Hi all,
I have just read through this whole thread and Im not sure were the nasty mean posts are. Yes there are people who are strongly against circumcision and they are entiltled to state their reasons why. It's not a personal attack.

.

Many of the personal attacks have been deleted when a member was banned and their posts removed.

WeThree

15-01-2006, 06:56

What Im finding in this thread is a lack of reasons for the arguement. Alot of mums have said they researched both sides and decieded to circumcise but have not stated what reasons swayed them to this decission.

Hi Annie, I guess that is because there really arent any.:rolleyes:
no offense to anyone who has had it done, each to their own, i love ewes all, etc, etc;) but there really just arent any reasons (except for medical emergency) that warrent routine circumscion.
Reasons such as 'his dad is done' or 'i dont want him getting infections' just arent good enough, and are quickly disproved and shown to be inadequate.
Anyway, mum2jakob, i hope you find the info you are looking for, like some of the other mums said, there is heaps of informative, accurate information on this site, courtesy of johnc and a few others, and lots of our opinions, lol, which may or may not sway you, although hopefully they help you decide to not have it done;)
good luck with your decision. :)

annie71

15-01-2006, 07:46

Thanks allyoo,
and you make a fantastic point when you say that the parents who do get it done are not out to harm their sons and believe they are doing the right thing. This I have no doubt. I suppose this is why I think it should be illegal.

There is no fence sitting for me with this topic.
With no medical reason I believe it is not your choice to make. :confused:

It will be interesting now that circumcision is a small minority how in 10 years time these teenage boys will react when most of their friends got to keep the willy they were born with.:eek:

cosmic

15-01-2006, 07:55

reAllytee

15-01-2006, 20:13

I totally agree, Annie. I think it's shocking that profiteering doctors are now able to charge unsuspecting parents up to $500 for this procedure (schedule fee is about $35) and that people somehow don't get that those doctors might be a tad biased when they are quoted in the media spouting off about the 'benefits' of circumcision. :rolleyes:

I totally agree with you also on this cosmic to have doctors charging some of the prices they do is appalling especially when they arent even using a local or the likes i find rather disturbing. I paid more due to this but still nowhere near $500 !!!!!
And i also find them using scare tactics even more appalling !

I suppose this is why I think it should be illegal.
Even to some of us that do it for religious beliefs ? Not trying to be horrible but do you think you have the right to ask someone to stop believing in what they do ? Just curious.[/QUOTE]

With no medical reason I believe it is not your choice to make.
It will be interesting now that circumcision is a small minority how in 10 years time these teenage boys will react when most of their friends got to keep the willy they were born with.
My partner & bubs daddy was part of a so called minority with having the chop & he doesnt seem to care infact in his words " its not exactly like we sit around & compare them & i wouldnt like to either. So i dont really understand why people wonder about how the boy will feel when he is older as i now have a group of 5 good male friends & i have no idea what their penises look like "
Now i know there are boys who are scarred mentally ( as well as physically ) by the procedure but i wonder what age they had it done & how it was performed to begin with but also if they are so angry with their parents over it whether it doesnt stem from some other issue.
Thats being said i guess when bubs hits school i shall experience this for myself guess this conversation will really have to wait 5 or 6 yrs :)

WeThree

15-01-2006, 20:31

Hi Ally, are you Jewish ? :)
(if this is to much of personal question to answer here, please pm me, its just that im curious as to what religious beliefs you have that led you to your decision, i find stuff like that interesting, or your pm can simply tell me to mind my own beeswax, lol):)

andrewJ

17-01-2006, 06:33

"Even to some of us that do it for religious beliefs ? Not trying to be horrible but do you think you have the right to ask someone to stop believing in what they do ? "

nobody can argue with your belief. It is whether or not you have the right to act upon your belief that is in question.

Your belief ends where your childs body begins.

More importantly i think, is that many things classed as religious beliefs, are actually religious traditions. To really believe that God wants us to circumcise our children, you would need to have really read and really thought about the history, context, meaning etc etc etc of the laws in leviticus (if you are jewish). I think you would also need an answer as to why, we should keep circumcising, but its ok to ignore many other rules in Leviticus, such as...

"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him"

" For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."

" If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them"

it is right that jews today no longer practice many of these things.

Rahmi'sMum

17-01-2006, 09:25

Sorry Allyoo - Myself and my Husband are Muslim - still wasn't a good enough reason to circumsize our beautful little boy. No reason is good enough to --circumcise--my little mans perfect little body, apart from medical reasons requiring it to be done for his benefit. Some parts of the Koran are outdated - and we're not afraid to admit it.

So I disagree with that statement entirely.

I agree the surgery should be illegal unless for medical reasons - just as female circumcision is illegal in Australia.

[text editted by moderator]

Hokey Pokey

17-01-2006, 12:42

WeThree

17-01-2006, 12:56

I have always said if we ever have a boy I do not want to Circumsize him.
I don't see the need to do it. As for risk of infections, doesn't that occur because people try to force back the skin to clean it which can make small tears and cause infection?
On the other hand my partner is circumsized and says he will want his son done too. That it did not do any damage to him and it looks "better and cleaner"
However I really really disagree.
What to do if we ever had a boy! ;)

yup, you are right, this is why infections usually occur. You should not attempt to pull back and clean under a baby/toddlers foreskin. It is not necessary and will only do damage. When they are old enough to do it themselves (i started explaining to my son what to do when he was about 5) then that is usually a good time to start getting them to do it. :)

reAllytee

17-01-2006, 13:20

Sorry coopsntilly ive PMed you :)

Sorry Allyoo - Myself and my Husband are Muslim - still wasn't a good enough reason to circumsize our beautful little boy. No reason is good enough to --circumcise--my little mans perfect little body, apart from medical reasons requiring it to be done for his benefit. Some parts of the Koran are outdated - and we're not afraid to admit it.

So I disagree with that statement entirely.

I agree the surgery should be illegal unless for medical reasons - just as female circumcision is illegal in Australia.

[text editted by moderator]

This is fine thats your choice & your beliefs, Dont attack me for mine as i wouldnt do yours. For me it wasnt the main reason i got my little boy done again if you read my earlier post you will see how many things including daddys views came into this it wasnt something just made on a whim.

My problem with making something like this illegal is that it then may make a market for backyard butchers which i think to me is more worriesome than a doctor performing the procedure.
Now again im not saying it should be promoted as the thing to do which is what a lot of these doctors do & it horrifies me personally that they would use a parents well meaning wants for their child in a way to twist their arm so to speak for getting it done.
I think making it illegal will only cause more problems with people doing this procedure who havent any training or the likes so maybe making it so its very difficult to have it done is a better option.
So that parents who have a religious belief or when the child has a medical problem be the only options left open.
But as ive said before this is only my opinion or thoughts i dont push them on anyone else nor would i.

Rahmi'sMum

17-01-2006, 15:11

Allyoo - which part of my post was an attack???

carls

17-01-2006, 16:44

I would quickly just like to say that my partner and I were ADAMANT about getting our boy circumcised when he was born, and it was purely for aesthetic reasons.

Since having him we have completely changed our mind. There is no way we would want to pay top dollar and search out one of only two doctors in Adelaide that perform the procedure, to bring pain to our baby boy.

I never thought I would feel this way, but its amazing how things can change! :)

WeThree

17-01-2006, 17:17

YAY Carls!! :D
I wasnt going to say anything when you mentioned in another thread that you were going to have him done, but i was thinking to myself 'we'll see, wait till she meets him' ;) :)

cosmic

17-01-2006, 17:21

Carls, I'm so glad to hear that! I also wondered if you would go through with it and I'm very happy to hear you changed your mind.

annie71

18-01-2006, 12:59

Even to some of us that do it for religious beliefs ? Not trying to be horrible but do you think you have the right to ask someone to stop believing in what they do ? Just curious.[/QUOTE]

This resonse really got me thinking and thats what these forums are all about.
I have always been open minded on peoples beliefs and the way they live there lives. The one thing I started thinking was excacly what andrewj has written "is it a belief or a practiced tradition". Either way your son should be given the choice as an adult. If at this stage in his life he has the same beliefs and wishes to have it done then there is nothing stopping him.
I suppose I think that you can't use religion and beliefs to justify practices that are from centurys ago and have no place in modern society.

As for making it illegal creating backyard doctors, I don't think there would be to many monthers who would be that determined to get there kids circumsiced that they would take that risk.
Would you have?

annie71

18-01-2006, 13:08

I have always said if we ever have a boy I do not want to Circumsize him.
I don't see the need to do it. As for risk of infections, doesn't that occur because people try to force back the skin to clean it which can make small tears and cause infection?
On the other hand my partner is circumsized and says he will want his son done too. That it did not do any damage to him and it looks "better and cleaner"
However I really really disagree.
What to do if we ever had a boy! ;)

What a hard position to be in.
Maybe you could tell him that doctors won't do the procedure anymore. This isn't really a fib as there are not to many out there that will anymore.

Shajbm

18-01-2006, 14:18

hmmmm interesting thread...In some religions it is something that is done regardless of whether you agree with it or not...In the Jewish religion for example if you want your boy to be bar mitzvahed and or marry in a synagogue and be regarded as jewish he will need to be circumcised at 8 days old(or a month or longer if there is a medical reason to postpone the circumcision). Sometimes there is just no choice...It is a ******** act, however, for those who are religious in anyway why do you celebrate chrismas or easter or practice lent...We are brought up by our parents who are brought up by their parents and so on and so forth...Religion is something that is passed down from generation to generation and should be respected by others.

I disagree that circumcision should be made illegal (different issues to female circumcision) male circumcision doesn't cause infertility and doesn't have the control issues that are related to female circumcision...

All on the thread should respect other peoples views...Everyone has the right to an opinion and should not feel that they need to justify the reason they chose to circumcise or not to circumcise.

I think that when posting about such issues, other peoples religious beliefs should be taken into account and not slandered in anyway...Circumcision is something that I think lacks public knowledge as do most religious acts.

If someone wishes to pm or email me on shtrause@hotmail.com please feel free to.

Shajake

Sarie

18-01-2006, 15:11

All on the thread should respect other peoples views...Everyone has the right to an opinion and should not feel that they need to justify the reason they chose to circumcise or not to circumcise.

I absolutely agree :)

moonblossom

18-01-2006, 15:13

Totally agree. The only time I get my back up is when someone says they are doing it because their partner has been.

WeThree

18-01-2006, 15:17

I kind of disagree. Noone has to justify anything to anyone, but if you chose to come into a thread that asks for help regarding circumsion and you have had your child done, then what is the point of being here if not to point out the pros, or share your reasons for doing so ? If it is going to make you feel uncomfortable that others may question your reasons (which they will, either because they are simply curious, thinking about getting their son done etc ) then i guess it would be best to not come in here. :)
btw, if anyone wants to know why im against circumsion, id be only to happy to justify my desicion. ;) :)

Shajbm

18-01-2006, 15:24

coopsntily...I agree...I don't have an issue with having to justify my reasons why getting our son circumcised. We had no choice and therefore it was just a done deal as soon as our son was born...I guess what I was trying to point out was that noone mentioned the fact that sometimes we don't have a choice as to whether we circumcise or not, due to religious beliefs...Sometimes it is something we have to do regardless of what the medical profession believes. I don't regret circumcising my son as he has had no problems after that, but for those who have issues, they should seek medical advice or talk to their religious leader regarding the appropriate action that should be taken...

WeThree

18-01-2006, 16:24

I find your point really interesting, i had no idea that if a Jewish boy wasnt circumcised that he couldnt do all those things, as far as i knew it was a deeply entrenched tradition, based on words from the Bible, but i didnt realise that as a Jew, it was compulsory (if you want your son to continue on his religious path) to do so. Thanks for sharing that with us :)

Odessa

18-01-2006, 16:36

Totally agree. The only time I get my back up is when someone says they are doing it because their partner has been.

Hasn't the point been made that people's reasons are their own, and should be respected? I don't see the point in getting angry about it.

cosmic

18-01-2006, 16:42

Just a couple of comments....

I'm not sure it's appropriate to compare circumcision to Christmas or Easter or Lent. None of those religious traditions involve surgical removal of the body part of a child.

And why, oh why, do people still insist that male and female circumcision are any different?

WeThree

18-01-2006, 17:38

Hasn't the point been made that people's reasons are their own, and should be respected? I don't see the point in getting angry about it.

~yes it has been, and yes they should be, but moonblossom is also entitled to feel annoyed at whatever she wants, i notice she hasnt vented these feelings towards anyone, so whats the problem?

~cec, so true, as its been mentioned on other circ threads before, in OUR culture male circ has always been seen as acceptable, just like in other cultures, female circ is still seen as acceptable, why are they wrong and we are right? both are completly unnecessary, yet for various reasons, most cultures, to varying degrees still practise one or the other or both.:confused:

moonblossom

18-01-2006, 17:55

Didnt mean to offend anyone. Just saying that one comment annoys me...thats all. Wow how would people react if i really fired up ;)

annie71

18-01-2006, 19:27

Circumcision Information Australia (http://www.circinfo.org/parents.html)

The above website gives alot of info on the con's of circumcision. There is alot of information out there for the against arguement but I can't seem to find much on the benifits.

As some mums in this thread have stated they did alot of research on the pro's and cons of this procedure and decieded to have it done. I was hoping some of you may be able to post some links for me so I can get both arguements and read what may have sway you.

cosmic

18-01-2006, 19:45

Annie, most mums who have come and said they did it usually said it was because their partner had it done, or they knew people who had infections and had to have it done later so wanted to avoid that happening to their son. I don't think I've ever seen anyone post valid research/info to support the 'for' argument.

reAllytee

18-01-2006, 20:53

Annie - I answered your question about what i meant when i said i researched the topic on pg.4 but will repeat that i looked into what means might be used etc what the choices outcomes are etc. Ive never said ive researched it & found appropriate evidence that says there are "pro's" on getting it done but i cant speak for the other mums.
I have never said either way that im for or against as im pretty much a fence sitter in that i believe its a choice to be made my each parent.
Yes i popped my head in here to apparently speak of the "fors" yet have i ever once said for someone to do it or they should do it ? No & i dont believe i have. Just because i made a comment in here that makes me "pro" infact if i quote myself you will actually see that i even point out to look at JohnC's info which pretty much says not to do it for any reason unless there is an extreme medical condition & even then be wary, correct ?

Im a minority i also got my boy done. My bubs was approx 2mths old & i made sure he had pain relief used & his procedure was done using the plastibell device, so if you want to ask any questions feel free to PM me.
I dont push either way i think its each parents choice as to what they choose just like bf & the likes.
Look into all your options JohnC gives great info on here without getting nasty as many others do as its a rather heated topic.

I only gave a little run down on how it was done & if the mother who was actually asking for advice wanted to ask any questions about the procedure then id be willing to help or does it seem that i want to get her into PM to "convert" her :rolleyes:
Im afraid i agree with darkstar but i understand the emotion behind everyones opinions.

annie71

18-01-2006, 21:02

It was not a dig at you Allyoo there are a couple of posts where people have mentioned they did research into circumcision. Maybe they are like you and meant the procedure.

xkwzit

18-01-2006, 21:38

Hi Annie
I think that a few ppl are very cautious when it comes to this subject, as most people are quite passionate in their belief one way or the other.

I seem to remember quite a few who offered to discuss by PM if you are really interested in their views. There are many who have already posted in the various other threads that we have on this subject and may not wish to rehash. You can access older threads by setting your viewing options to include threads older than the default month.

Cheers

reAllytee

18-01-2006, 21:44

Annie - I didnt take it as a dig rather that i wasnt sure whether you realised i had answered this or not :)

melfunction

19-01-2006, 07:41

I don't think I've ever seen anyone post valid research/info to support the 'for' argument.

Thats because there isn't any :rolleyes:

xkwzit

19-01-2006, 13:42

Thats because there isn't any :rolleyes:

KM, you are SO wicked :D Banned to the bone indeed :D ;)

Cheers

Minke

19-01-2006, 17:16

Hi, I have a five year old girl and had she been a boy he would have been circumcised.

Have read through alot of these threads and at 28 weeks pregnant, (with no idea what I'm having, other than I thinks its a boy) my DH and I have decided we will not be getting it done. The only reason I was going to get it done the first time was "because Daddy's done" and the cleanliness factor. I had said to my partner that I don't have a willy so he could decide and after telling him that no-one actually does it these days and medical associations are against routine circumcision, he straight away said, well why would we do it then? I think also explaining how its done, and that it could make it shorter (;) ) may have been quite a large factor in deciding against.

For me the risks far outweighed the benefits (neater?) as my midwife explained the other day that she had seen a little boy who had been circumcised, got an infection and ended up losing part of the tip of his penis!:eek: Rare yes, but still a risk! I do understand those who go through with it, but it really wasn't that important to me (no religious reasons or anything like that).

So thanks everyone for all your opinions, both for and against, these froums really are helpful!

Kelli

WeThree

19-01-2006, 17:19

That is so great to hear Kelli :)

hayleylea

20-01-2006, 14:35

Hi without trying to make an argument as i dont want that - i did get a whole heap of papers when i got my boy done (ill try and dig them out) but the reasearch i got also said that circumcision reduces the risk of STD's, AIDS, and Cancer. I know that all these these may seem trivial to people as the chance of getting all these may be minimal but just thought id add the stuff id been told incase other people were interested.

Please note this is not why i got it done, i was always going to get my son done from the start regardless - i have nothing against people who dont or people who do.

WeThree

20-01-2006, 15:11

hi haylea, check out some of the other circ threads, they have posts, links etc in them that will explain the validity of that 'research' :)

melfunction

20-01-2006, 15:55

[quote=hayleylea] i did get a whole heap of papers when i got my boy done (ill try and dig them out) but the reasearch i got also said that circumcision reduces the risk of STD's, AIDS, and Cancer. I know that all these these may seem trivial to people as the chance of getting all these may be minimal but just thought id add the stuff id been told incase other people were interested.
quote]

Yay :rolleyes: ...........................and yes I find this so called research very trivial.

There is NO research that states circumcision should be done to reduce the risk of any disease.
To prevent STD's, and AIDS, make sure a condom is used or don't have sex.

reAllytee

20-01-2006, 18:02

There is NO research that states circumcision should be done to reduce the risk of any disease.
To prevent STD's, and AIDS, make sure a condom is used or don't have sex.

Correct in no way does it reduce or stop the spread or likelihood of these diseases !

Oh & KM just to be pedantic you would have to also add into that last statement being careful of blood transfusions, needles & that not all STD's can be prevented by using a condom :p
Sorry now im being wicked LOL !
But i hope its realised there is no malice involved :(

hummingbird

20-01-2006, 20:23

melfunction

20-01-2006, 20:26

Of course no malice Allyoo :)

Also, I stand corrected re the blood transfusions..silly me. What sort of nurse was I???????????

reAllytee

20-01-2006, 20:42

What sort of nurse was I???????????

Id say a very good one just over worked & under paid !!! :p

hayleylea

21-01-2006, 06:53

I was only saying what the doc had given me, like i said this is not why i chose to get my son done anyway :) Just wanted to say what i have heard....im not sure how valid the reasearch is at all....my mind was made up before i got this so called research so hearing that was only a bonus in my eyes if it was true.

I live in a country town and the doctor reasearched this area and the figures showed up pretty close to 50% of boys getting circumcised and 50% not...this is in my area and the towns either side...in sydney i think its only something like 10% are done if that. I was worried that my little boy was going to be the "odd" one out but i figure with odds roughly 50/50 its all good...if it turns out he is in the minority then so be it im sure he will be fine with it...just about all the little boys in my mothers group his age are done and my nephews are done aswell so i figure he isnt going to be the odd one out to an extreme.

Anyway this topic always gets people heated under the collar so thats all from me :D I only posted what i have been told. Everyone is entittled to their own opinion whatever that may be.:)

melfunction

21-01-2006, 08:32

Oh & KM just to be pedantic you would have to also add into that last statement being careful of blood transfusions, needles & that not all STD's can be prevented by using a condom :p

Now I must be a bit pedantic myself......

Surely we must all realise that when you donate blood, it is screened for all the dirty diseases...
As for needles and STD's, I guess not using drugs would help that, or getting tattoos, or having sex or IV fluids, going to the park where the scum of society shoot up and then leave their needles lying around for innocents to stand on...Hmmm, this could go on

Sorry getting off topic :o

reAllytee

21-01-2006, 14:58

Now I must be a bit pedantic myself......

Surely we must all realise that when you donate blood, it is screened for all the dirty diseases...
As for needles and STD's, I guess not using drugs would help that, or getting tattoos, or having sex or IV fluids, going to the park where the scum of society shoot up and then leave their needles lying around for innocents to stand on...Hmmm, this could go on

Sorry getting off topic :o

Heh off the topic but i cant help it either :o Bad me :o
Yes it is screened for dirty disease but even if you read the fine print about it all they cant guarantee purity so to speak just like when i chose to have my Anti-D injections when pg due to my blood type. I had to sign a document that showed all the risks as well as sign to say i knew that i could be left open to nasties as they can never guarantee anything.
Well that was my point that its not just a case of wearing a condom & all being fine with the world. I actually knew a guy through friends who thought his life would be kept safe if he wore a condom at all times :confused: Not sure who he got his info from but well it was safe to say either way he was very much kept in the dark.

Anyways back to the topic .......

WeThree

21-01-2006, 16:17

well ladies, thanks for clearing all that up for us :rolleyes: ;) :p
anyone else have anything to add that is about circumscion? :D

JohnC

23-01-2006, 14:04

JohnC - where are you?
The myth that circumcision reduces the risk of cancer, AIDs and STDs is still out there! I really wish that you would collate all your posts as one thread so it can be THE thread to go to with all the stats and data. Or write at book!

Writing a book is perhaps less of a problem than getting people to read it :rolleyes: But since reasons for circumcision have been under discussion, it is probably timely to reiterate that these can only be socio-cultural, since there is no medical basis for routine circumcision in contemporary Australia ("routine" means done for other than a defined therapeutic reason eg BXO).

Specifically:
1. The lowest rates of penile cancer in the developed world (where it is in any case more rare than male breast cancer) are in non-circumcising countries (eg northern Europe). And Australia follows that trend.
2. Studies of STD incidence done in Australia during the 90s (by Donavon et at) showed circumcision status made no difference to STD incidence.
3. The African AIDS controversy (which it is not necessary to comment on here) is simply not relevant to Australia. The HIV Surveillance Report (April 2005) indicates a total of only 6 new cases of male hetrosexual AIDS acquistion in 2004 (excluding contacts from high-risk countries). So even if we (improperly) applied the results of the latest South African study, mass compulsory circumcision here would make no difference to the AIDS rate.

There are other pseudo-medical reasons cited, usually "infections", and I have tried to deal with those issues in the thread of that name.

So on socio-cultural reasons ...

... i had no idea that if a Jewish boy wasnt circumcised that he couldnt do all those things, as far as i knew it was a deeply entrenched tradition, based on words from the Bible, but i didnt realise that as a Jew, it was compulsory (if you want your son to continue on his religious path) to do so.
Your first idea was the right one, Coops. It is not mandatory for Jewish boys to be circumcised in order to participate in Judaism. Many Jews in the US (and Israel!) are rejecting the traditional Bris Milah, sometimes replacing it with Bris Shalom (http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/bris_shalom.html) as an alternative way of welcoming the infant into the Covenant of Abraham.

And we already know from Rahmi's Mum (excellent post!) that Muslims are also choosing not to circumcise their boys (or girls!). It should be noted, by the way, that the Qur'an does not mandate circumcision, which was in any case a pre-existing tribal custom of the first Bedouin Muslims.

Which leaves ...

The only time I get my back up is when someone says they are doing it because their partner has been.

And indeed, in non-circumcising countries the single biggest risk factor for a male infant to be circumcised is the circumcision status of the father, as well as (in Australia) locality (rural/regional is higher risk), and maternal education level (risk decreases with higher education).

It is therefore pretty difficult to avoid the conclusion that for the minority of boys who are circumcised, most are being subject to cosmetic surgery based on the outdated social mores of their parents.

melfunction

23-01-2006, 14:07

Welcome back John :D

WeThree

23-01-2006, 14:16

Your first idea was the right one, Coops. It is not mandatory for Jewish boys to be circumcised in order to participate in Judaism. Many Jews in the US (and Israel!) are rejecting the traditional Bris Milah, sometimes replacing it with Bris Shalom (http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/bris_shalom.html) as an alternative way of welcoming the infant into the Covenant of Abraham.
.

Thanks for clearing that up for me!! good to see you back btw :D

xkwzit

23-01-2006, 14:46

Now THAT'S an interesting way to put it (and it is great to see you back :) )

And indeed, in non-circumcising countries the single biggest risk factor for a male infant to be circumcised is the circumcision status of the father, as well as (in Australia) locality (rural/regional is higher risk), and maternal education level (risk decreases with higher education).

It is therefore pretty difficult to avoid the conclusion that for the minority of boys who are circumcised, most are being subject to cosmetic surgery based on the outdated social mores of their parents.

Many people would not think of advocating cosmetic surgery for their kids, but see circ differently. Those risk factors are very interesting, and thought provoking.

Cheers

JohnC

23-01-2006, 18:05

I agree the surgery should be illegal unless for medical reasons - just as female circumcision is illegal in Australia.

I disagree that circumcision should be made illegal (different issues to female circumcision) male circumcision doesn't cause infertility and doesn't have the control issues that are related to female circumcision...

This raises some interesting issues, and since tonight will be my last opportunity to post for a couple of weeks :( I may as well rabbit on a bit :p

Maybe some history first, since male circumcision has been outlawed numerous times. The most famous occasion was in Palestine during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes (~167 BCE) as part of a push to Hellenise the Jews. It sparked the successful Maccabee revolt, which was rather nasty on both sides. The authorities

...put to death the women who had their children circumcised, and their families and those who circumcised them; and they hung the infants from their mothers' necks. (1 Maccabees 1:60-61, NRSV)
While the rebels "forcibly circumcised all the uncircumcised boys that they found within the borders of Israel" as well as murdering apostates (easily identified since they did not circumcise their children). The revolt succeeded.

This experience was probably the reason that when the Hadrian apparently banned circumcision throughout the Roman empire in 132 AD, the Jews were given a religious exemption (they constituted about 10pc of the empire). Subsequent European Christian rulers frequently made the circumcision of Christian boys a capital offense, particularly in areas that were in contact with the Islamic world. The earliest reference I've found is the Visigoths in 8th century Spain, but it was a common theme right throughout the Crusades and later, as well as a frequent accusation against the European Jewish communities.

In modern times the former Soviet Union banned male circumcision, but gave Muslims an exemption. The Soviet Jewish community generally complied with the ban, and many Jews chose to remain intact after the collapse, including some who emigrated to Israel.

Most Western countries have prohibited all forms of female circumcision over the past 20 years, although there is no grounds - social, historical or medical - for separating this practice from the male equivalent (for a summary of this position, see cultural blindness (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=77762#post77762)).

A number of European countries have been hotly debating religious circumcision of boys: Sweden has put tighter regulation in place, Holland has withdrawn funding, etc. But there are realistically two major problems:
1) The charge of anti-semitism is political dynamite and Jewish leaders are quick to raise the accusation, even if the motivation is clearly one of children's rights. The scandalous situation in New York, where children have died of herpes as result of metzitzah b'peh (see this article (http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060106/ZNYT04/601060722/-1/HEALTHMATTERS02) for details) shows what a hot potato this can be.
2) Some parents, particularly of African origin, will resort to dangerous backyard procedures if medicalised circumcision is denied them. In Ireland, a Nigerian man was recently found not guilty of reckless endangerment after a 4-week-old boy died following a circumcision with a razor blade. The judge directed the jury by saying that "they could not bring their white western values to bear when they were deciding this case".

In a sane world, no child (male or female) would be subject to genital cutting, scarification or other disfiguring and potentially dangerous procedures. But it is by no means clear that legal prohibition is the best way of achieving that result. Indeed, history would indicate such an approach is almost doomed to fail. Perhaps we should remember that before the Greeks tried to enforce their values on the Jews, many were abandoning circumcision of their own accord.

Yet given the evident difficulty in this forum convincing apparently intelligent and informed parents that the routine circumcision of their sons is both unnecessary and unjust, there is still a long road ahead ...