Circumcision

[Caitlin's Mum]

Any thoughts on circumcision. We are expecting a boy and are considering it given all the males in both sides of the family are done and have also heard lots of stories about infections in non-circumcised bubs. I know this can be a very touchy subject and that not many people in Brisbane do it anymore, but any thoughts would be grateful. Thanks

[cwsmum]

Hi Caitlins mum,
We considered having our son circumcised, but decided against it for a number of reasons. Our son has never had any problems.

My nephew was never circumcised, but as a baby (under 12mths old) had a few urinary tract infections. The doctor said that if he had one more, I forget how many he had, then he would have to be done. He turns 6 this year and has had no further probs.

My dad had to be circumcised as a 4yr old :eek: so there has been a few problems in my family, but my son has not had any at all :)

Is there a history of problems in your families? Is that the reason all the males were circumcised, or was it just done because everyone else was?

I know that when my son was born, Dr Terry Russell, he was on Kessels Rd, Mt Gravatt, did do circumcisions, but I'm not sure if he's still there, he'll be in the phone book if he is. I took my son to him to have his tongue tie corrected and he was wonderful :)

Anyway, hope that has been some sort of help to you, maybe you could call the doctor and have some info sent to you, I know that alot of gp's aren't very keen to talk about this sort of thing anymore. Good luck :)

[Lallas' Mum]

My son was circumcised when he was four weeks old.

When he was born he developed a urinary infection, which is supposed to be rare among boys. This was one reason why we decided to have our son circumcised.
Here's a few things you can avoid by having your son circumcised; recurrent urinary tract infections, thrush (yes uncircumcised males can get thrush), impotence due to chronic thrush and or overtight foreskin. There were a few other things the doctor mentioned but they were the main things.
The procedure they use nowadays which involves a plastic bell minimises blood loss and highly reduces previous risk factors.

The procedure is best performed before 6 weeks of age. Any later and you'll have to see a surgeon to have the foreskin removed.

The hospital where my son was born wouldn't even tell me who performed the procedure. They (the midwives) were so dead against it. But my Aunty who is an enrolled nurse said I'm mad if I didn't get it done. She spent I lot of time with the armed forces and saw first hand the trouble men had with thrush and UTIs. She said the pain that grown men had to go through to be circumcised later in life due to problems was a lot worse.

My advice is to seek out all the facts. Find a doctor that carries out the procedure in your area and make an apointment to talk to him first. You can even do this before your son is born.

Yes my son was upset when he had it done, but he was quickly soothed by a feed. (they can't drink for 1-2hours before hand). He wasn't tender and still slept well (for a four week old) and within 1 1/2 weeks you wouldn't even know it had been done.
Obviously, I think it is very benificial. Like everything but - your son may never be affected by any of the above problems or then again he may be.

I just urge you to go and speak to a doctor who performs the procedure and find out as much as you can about the pros and cons before you decide.

Best of luck deciding,

Tracey
(:D Mum to Alec 17 months and Bub due May 2nd)

[willsmum]

There is another very extensive thread that covers this issue in great detail - both for and against - try looking that one up.

[Lachlan's Mum]

The thread Willsmum is talking about is in the Brisbane section.

[mce]

Hi Caitlin's Mum,
Everyone has an opinion about this topic, personally I am for circumcision at an early age in boys. However I believe this is a very personal decision that you and your partner should make together. Be informed about the proceedure, you may like to listen to other peoples opinions and experiences but in the end it should be a decision that you are both happy with.
I am a nurse and have seen some men (of old age) go through pretty horendous proceedures due to not having been circumcised, also I have seen some pretty gross things when it comes to uncircumcised penises, and I have looked after teenagers and young men in hospital undergoing circumcision at that age (something which is very embarrassing for them). These are the reasons I believe it is for the best to be done early, when no lasting emotional damage is endured. After seeing the procedure done, it seems that the baby protests more about being stripped down and restrained than about the actual precedure. My sister-in-law had a boy late last year and got him circumcised. She was distressed by hearing her baby upset (she was not allowed to be with him throughout the procedure) but she kept saying in the days and weeks afterwards how he was not upset or in pain due to the procedure and how well and quickly it healed. Each child is individual and some may react differently. With the latest method of circumcision I am told there are less complications from bleeding and infection and therefore makes the procedure safer than before, but that is something you could find out through a reputable doctor who performs circumcisions regularly. If you think you may do, this talk to other people in your area who have had their son circumcised because it is extremely important to find a good doctor. Find out if they were happy with the doctor, the method used, the end result and whether there were any complications etc.
I think a lot of times the guys have more of a right to decide because they have more of a personal experience with it than us, but it won't stop me from having my say when and if we ever have a boy. The procedure may not be necessary or popular anymore, and not all uncircumcised boys or men have problems, but there is a small chance your son will still have to be circumcised at some time in his life. You have to look at the pros and cons of having it done or not and make an informed decision with your partner. Many people are against it now and make you feel guilty even thinking about having it done but don't let these people put you off finding out about it and making your own judgement on it.

mce

[Elle]

Hi Caitlins Mum I have been going through the same question with myself. I am due in May and found out that I am having a boy. I have heard from so many people with conflicting advice so I decided to do some research for myself to see what I wanted to do. I came across this website (I have pasted the link below if you want to check it out) and the picture I saw of this poor baby looking like he was in so much pain made my mind up right there and then.

http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/

My thoughts on circumcision now are "if it ain't broke don't fix it". I will leave my son in tact as nature intended and if any problems should arise in the future we will deal with them when and if they happen.

Good luck with your decision and don't forget to research, research and research.

[Jennifer05]

Hi there,

Just thought that I would put my thoughts here. I have a boy Charlie (12months), and we circumcised him when he was 3 days old in the hospital. Everyone in the hospital wasn't for it, but we decided to to it anyway. the midwife told me that 20 % city people circumcise, and 50% country do it. We are from a country town, so i guess we fit into that. The procedure was done in 5 minutes, he cried a little, when he came back into my room at hospital, he was already ASLEEP!! the ring took 10 days to come off, and he was fine, no probs, didn't hurt, rub or anything.

I am personally glad we got it done, but it was a hard choice. On the other hand, my sister's boy isn't done, and that's what they chose, so each to their own!!

Good luck with it all

Jennifer :)

[Caitlin's Mum]

Thanks Jennifer. Which hospital did you go to?

[Jennifer05]

Hey there Caitlins mum,

I had Charlie in Adelaide and the Burnside War Memorial Hospital. I had a pedeatric surgeon come in to do it, as they are the only ones allowed,( or so i was told) His name was Dr Kirby.

[Tannie]

these threads always get too hot.......so all I'll say is no way I would ever submit my child to such an unnecessary procedure......I believe it's ******** and has no place in modern society.
Despite what one poster says, I don't believe the trend is anything like 50% of country boys and 20% of city......legitimate surveys show it's more around 12-15% these days and falling. I work as a nurse and there is no way that 50% of boys coming in are circ'd.........very rare to see it these days in boys under 15-20 yrs.
When we were in hospital after having our bub a circ was done on a baby in the treatment room up the hallway (We knew that what is was as I went for a walk and heard the dr ask if they were all set up for the circ ready to go......) Frankly, it was horrific to hear the baby scream like that & several other parents came out of their rooms to look in fright........my hb and I both started crying and I get tears in my eyes just recalling it.......my hb is circ'd and wonders how his parents could have let it happen.

It is no longer recommended by the Paediatric society in Aust or UK & that has to tell us something? esp as most doctors are male and would certainly understand the pro's & con's of keeping their penis healthy & happy :)
T

[myf]

I spent one evening recently surfing the net in some depth following an appointment with Dr Russell at Mt Gravatt with my husband and two lads (4 & 6 yrs).
During that evening I came across this site (and countless more opposing circumcision) and I have to say that having read each and every post on the subject I was horrified at the choice we had made... to have our boys circumcised. I woke my husband up at 3.00am in a state telling him that I couldn't go through with it and that everything I had read in the last 6 hours was against the procedure!!!
To be continued due to dinner.....................

[2under2]

We decided not to have our baby boy circumsised, even though nearly everyone else we know has been done without their consent at birth or shortly after. I feel that is (for a normal, healthy baby) completely unnecessary and ******** in this day and age. I understand that everyone has a right to make their own decision. If it wasn't meant to be there, it wouldn't be part of the plan at all!

[myf]

............continued

My mind had been made up for some years now that I would have my sons circumcised, eventually. I had previously been put off after consultation with a private urologist when my first son was 15 months old and had put the whole subject on the back burner.

By the time my second son was 2yrs or so, I had already been to my local GP on several occasions with minor irritations with both boys, which granted the antibiotic cream prescribed did its job and we moved on.
However each time, the subject of circumcision arose between my husband and I, why hadn't we done it by now? My husband is circumcised, but never pushed the case although I do know he would cringe at the sight of the inflamed penis, shake his head and blame it entirely on the presence of the foreskin!

The final straw came the day my eldest son was in the shower and discovered his foreskin had totally detached from the gland, he screamed in horror at the sight of the smegma which had been locked underneath the foreskin (and stays there until your child can finally pull back his foreskin completely) and now thickly coated the head of his penis proving almost impossible to remove!! I had to run a bath and let him have a long soak, having been totally horrified myself to see him standing in the shower with the nail brush attacking his 'willy'!! (he hobbled about for a couple of days after that episode!!)

Personal hygiene is of utmost importance in my household, anyone who knows me would almost definately class me as fanatical! So I could never be accused of neglect in that department. Even Dr. Russell commended me on my boys penile hygiene ( even after a 6hr day of school; we had a 4pm appointment!).
In addition he pointed out the smegma trapped beneath my 4yr old foreskin, which was still adhered to the head. The only way to get rid of this smegma at this stage is to detatch the foreskin, forget the warm soapy bath water!
With this in mind I was greatful that I only had 6 days to wait before my lads were finally rid of their foreskin for good!!!!

[myf]

My 2 lads were circumcised last week at Dr Terry Russells rooms at Mt Gravatt.
The elma cream which is applied topically to the penis for 2 hrs prior to the procedure is a welcome alternative to a general or local anesthetic. A small amount of pethadine is injected according to the weight of the child which merely relaxed my lads. This did not appear to produce any side effects whatsoever.

Neither child was stressed or anxious. They were actually able to vocally claim that they felt no pain at all throughout the procedeure. My eldest played his gameboy the whole way!!!
I took the liberty to administer a dose of panadol to each of them before leaving Dr Russells rooms, more to be ontop of the pain relief rather than letting the pain ( I was expecting them to experience ) get hold of my boys.
Sensible doses of panadol for the next 24 hrs ( 4 hourly ) and warm salt water baths have seen my kids recover rapidly from a procedure I was dreading!!

Dr Terry Russell is the most informative and approachable medical proffessional I have ever encountered. He is sensitive to his patients and their parents alike. Listen to his advice and follow through with the care he recommends and you too will experience a pain free straight forward procedure for your sons.

[willsmum]

myf,

I think that in your case, things are a little different to most other. You waited until your boys were older, they had some prior problems with infections, and they were able to have anaesthesia and pethidine. Not so newborns.

I still fail to see how anyone can do this to helpless little days-old people. Maybe everyone should wait til their boys are older like you did, then they will definitely know if it is the necessary thing for them. In my book, chopping off normal body parts just in case there is a problem later is a bit like pulling healthy teeth just in case they get decay.

[Narelle]

If our baby is a boy we decided we will not get him circumcised.
I think Tannie is right about the stats, we were told it's not really that common anymore.
A friend of mine got her son done because she wanted him to look like his daddy
down there, but if you base your decision on appearance I think it's more important to look like all the other kids at school rather than your dad.
If you need it done for medical reasons fair enough but I agree with Elle "if it aint broke don't fix it" where I live if you want it done you have to wait until they're six months old and as far as I know they have to have a general anesthetic.
Good Luck with your decision!

[myf]

Actually my lads didn't have any serious problems, just the normal stuff that comes with the foreskin remaining intact but I could see the potential danger down the track. Afterall I won't always be able to oversee the cleaning of my lads penis', my 6 yr old is already closing the bathroom door!
Lets face it with all the emphasis on keeping the penis clean, ( don't circumcise just teach them how to keep it clean, thats pulling back the skin etc ) in my mind there has to be some pretty treacherous lurgies breeding underneath that foreskin!!

As to your comment to newborns, although Dr Russell does not administer pethidine, he does I believe use the elma anesthetic cream. A friend of mine had her little guy done at his rooms @ 2 weeks old.
To be honest I wish I had done the same. My guys have gone to back to school today and we are still waiting for the plastibell to drop off, not painful, but I kinda want to be there just incase theres a drama. Theres no keeping my kids away from school they want to be with their pals especially after the hols. Plus if they were babies they wouldn't be tearing round the yard, swimming and rugby tackling their mates and each other!! The skin on the newborns penis is much thinner too so the plastibell falls off much quicker than with the older boys.

As far as having your kids done cos Daddys done! Well thats just not a goodenough reason for Dr Russell! He really needs you to do your homework before you see him and put your reasons out on the table. That's just another reason why I speak so highly of him.

[WeThree]

im sorry but i just dont believe in getting your child circumscised for no good reason, neither of my boys are circumsised and neither has had any trouble(although obviously i wouldnt hesitate if it was necessary ) my husband and i continually teach them about good hygiene and my husband isnt done and he has never had any trouble either, i just dont understand how anybody can let someone do that to their darling newborn baby for no good reason! its supposed to be our job to protect them. i wonder how we would like it if we were held down and had part of our labia or willy chopped off... ggrrr :(
Remember we are our babies voice!

[myf]

I appreciate this is a very personal subject.
You have to feel passionate about it, to actually to go through with the procedure no matter what your childs age. It's not a flippant descision and that should be considered when questioning a parents reasoning. No-one in their right mind would want to inflict unnecessary pain or harm upon our children.

[WeThree]

Im afraid for some people it is a flippant decision, 'oh well his dad is done and we want him to look the same' what the? I know for some little boys it ends up becoming necessary, several boys in my family have had to have it done due to tightening of the foreskin, but i think people should just wait and see, like i said i dont know how anyone can let somebody do that to their darling new baby for no reason(or for some really stupid reason) :o

[myf]

I guess the reasoning for most would be to avoid problems later on in life.
Whilst doing extensive research myself prior to my boys procedure I came across many sites with conflicting arguements. I also came across a site whereby grown men were discussing thier late in life circumcision which was REALLY interesting.
Due to the decrease in numbers of new borns being circumcised there has been a significant increase in adults and young men needing or wanting the procedure, this is a major op. by this age, and an inconvenience.
It's all food for thought when trying to make the best decisions for our little men!

[WeThree]

hello everyone. i have been doing some thinking and i just wanted to apologise for butting in and giving my opinion on this thread, it should be for people to give and receive advice about circumscising their children, not a place for me to vent my disapprovals, so although my opinions havnt changed, i am sorry for voicing them here, it is not an appropriate thing to do and from now on i will try to stick to subjects that are relevant to me :o

[ccc]

I have read the posts here and would like to comment...just be careful what you read! The Australian Pediatric and medical groups do not recommend routine circumcision and there are good reasons why they don't recommend it!

Very few boys and men ever require circumcisions(medicare stats prove this), and now in most cases where there could be problems such as a tight foreskin, alternate procedures can be done without the need for a circumcision!

As for Dr. Russell, I know a nurse friend of mine in Brisbane and she has told me that several babies and older boys have had to be admitted to hospital with bleeding problems and post complications from his circs! She says its not a pain free procedure and complications do occur! Dr. Russell is very well known as a pro circ activist and naturally gives out very misleading and biased information , he wants to make parents feel comfortable with their decision! He is not a specialist, just a GP! However, he has manipulated the media well through television such as 60 minutes to present his case! He has managed to convert some families in beliving circumcision is a simple painless procedure with added benefits! Talk with the majority of specialists and you will see he is so very wrong!

Remember, the foreskin has a pupose and function and luckily very few babies are circumcised today. My husband has commented to me, the foreskin is easy to keep clean and look after. I believe this is true also with my 3 boys!

Sorry if I have upset anyone, I know this is a sensitive issue, but i like others to know the truth and i believe boys should not have to go through this painful procedure, especially when official australian medical groups don't recommend it!

[myf]

I felt the need to draw conclusion to my boys circumcision tale as today saw our follow up consultation with Dr. Russell. All was well, as was to be expected.
Dr Russell asked the boys how it had been and both told the stories, laughing the whole way, of where and when their 'plastibells fell' off.
The boys had experienced some discomfort for a couple of days whilst the plastibells separated from the skin with itching being the main complaint. Their penis' swelled up and were quite red but I was told by Dr Russell that we would experience this. Once the 'Bell' fell off, it was a bit like losing a wobbly tooth, hanging on to each thread and then all of a sudden it was gone and everything went back to normal remarkably quickly.
Funnily enough my lads didn't seem to remember that last bit of discomfort (the only bit of discomfort they experienced) as they laughed and told their stories today!
I'm not going to pretend that it was as easy as it sounds, I attended to my boys for 2 weeks sitting them in salt baths each day and making sure they were clean, dry and protected with antiseptic at all times. It was an effort. But well rewarded as we didn't experience any problems whatsoever.
My advice to those who are contemplating circumcision for their boys is to do it when they are babies, it is better for ALL involved (see reasoning in previous posts). To those of you who like myself made the final decision when your boys were alittle older, make sure you follow all the post procedure advice and be prepared to see it through until circumcision is complete, be patient it could take a while.
Don't be scared to call up for advice.

Finally I must add one last piece.
It would seem that as 'man', we no longer walk on all fours.
We no longer hunt for our food in forests or sandy planes with spears and lassos butt naked. 'Man' has developed and adapted remarkably over the ages!
Why, we no londer need an appendix!! Amazing!!
Due to the fact that most men wear at least one set of dax most times of the day, do they really need a heap of foreskin too!?
For those of you who are so opinionated, have a thought to where the foreskin originated and why?
By the way, circumsicion does not remove ALL the foreskin just that useless dangling bit on the end!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[StormAngel]

Hi

I think it's a personal decicion that should only be made by parents.
My son was done at 3wks old (he's now 11) and he cried mor when getting immunised than having the circumsision done.
I have no real opinions either way, if you choose for or against it's entirely up to you!!

[Lallas' Mum]

myf,
I read through all your replies here and I have come to a conclusion that might be wrong, but I suspect you have an obsession about your sons penises. I mean you talk about waking up in the middle of the night about it, about hearing your kids tell you about it, about how your kids were lying there playing their game boys not even having a problem with it.

To a male like myself, I find your replies really false. I know I certainly wouldn't be playing a computer game while some starts cutting a part of me, and not neccessarily my penis, but anything.

GET REAL. Oh and GET OVER IT (the obsession of your kids penises).

Matt16,
I think you'll find that it is not an obsession with penises as such. It is an obsession that every mother (and most father's) have - their child's well-being. This forum is helping people decide whether it is best to have their sons circumcised to help avoid things like overtightened foreskins, infections and of course the god aweful tears and damage to the foreskin. Or whether it is a totally unnecessary excercise that does nothing except cause pain and hurt to a child.
Mother's especially obsess over whether they are doing what is best for their child or not. Whether it be about their penises, daycare or even what they eat, a mother will always be concerned about decisions that can affect their childs well being especially major decisions. And let's face it - circumcision is a pretty big deal.
This forum is helping others to "get over it" by discussing pros and cons and sharing other peoples experience. It is helping other people make up their minds on what they believe is best for their child.
Matt16 please don't feel like I'm attacking you as I am not. I'm am just trying to shed some light on how a mother views things. It may seem like we dwell on things (and we do) but that is what makes men and women different I guess.

By the way it is good to see you sticking by your new family.

[Tannie]

I'm facinated why so many people - men and women seem to think uncircumsised penis's are so "dirty" and how difficult it is to "clean" them or to teach a boy to clean his penis properly??

I mean - as a nurse, I've cleaned all sorts of penis's in all sorts of situations over the years and it just ain't that darn difficult ;) I'm sure any little boy of normal intelligence and behaviours could complete this task daily without too much grief and unless left unclean for a long period of time, from what I can tell, an uncirc'd penis is no "dirtier" then a circ'd one........all of em can get pretty rank if not washed regularly :eek:

To me it's no different then teaching a child how to do most of their hygiene needs - I think it would be much harder to teach a child how to properly clean their teeth then a penis! What about teaching girls about their period and how to deal with that? Many girls now get their period at age 9 or 10 - I would think that's a much harder task to prepare a child for then teaching a boy how to gently retract his foreskin and wash it regularly.
T

[myf]

matt16
I feel you have totally missed the point to my postings. Either that or you haven't really understood them? I felt it necessary to describe what, how and where in relation to an older boys circumcision. If you have misconstrued this as an obsession with my sons penis' then that is you misinterpretaion.
My hope is that I have been able to shed alittle light on this subject for other mothers who maybe searching the net for similar information as I was prior to my boys procedure.
As far as saying that my postings are false????
I'm not in the habbit of lying and considering you do not know anything about me I think the attack on my personality was totally uncalled for and certainly unjust.

[Milly]

Hi there!

A hot topic indeed. Infant Circumcision as a routine procedure is no longer recommended in Australia. It has been on the decline for over 25 years. The stats are falling and it is not medically necessary!

Anyway, here is a link of interest for those contemplating it:

http://www.circinfo.org/

Please think about this seriously before making the decision!

[nemosmum]

We had our son circumsised, he was just over 4 weeks old. It was a heartbreaking experience for me as i did not want to have it done. My partner(who is also circumsised) really believed strongly in doing it so i agreed reluctantly. My partner went in with him and i waited in the waiting room with other parents(I was suprised to see that not many mum's & dad's went in with their little ones). From the waiting room I could hear my sons screams of agony and could do nothing to help him. It made me sick to think that i had paid some stranger $500 to inflict such pain on my little baby. When we bought him home I couldnt bring myself to remove the bandages I made his father do it and our son needed panadol for at least 5-6 days after the procedure. I thought i would never forgive myself for doing it and I only hope I have a baby girl next time round as I dont want to repeat the experience again. :(

[angcaltam]

I have 2 boys, 1 aged 4 1/2years and the other is 2 1/2years. My eldest had to be done due to medical reasons, he has only just been done about 1 month ago. My boys have a condition which the foreskin can't be pulled back to clean it, but the eldest had it worst then the second. He kept getting infection after infection and in the end we were told that was the only way he would stop getting his infections so we got him down, but as for our second boy we will only get him done if he starts to have problems which we don't think he will as his foreskin is starting to come back.
I believe it is up to the parents, whatever they want to do they should do it.
We keep getting people telling us that since we got Angus done that we have to get Caleb done but I'm just block them out as they are my kids not theirs.
I hope this has helped you in some way. :D

[kempton]

I know they arent more dirty. I simply had my boy done because I feel its tradition. No different to a girl having her ears forciably pierced by her mother.

This is an outrageous and disgusting thing to say, and a pitiful comparison at that. They are nothing alike, and everyone knows that. Piercing a girl’s ear is quite different. For one, they aren’t piecing the girl’s genitals, and for two, the girl can quite easily remove the earring anytime she doesn't like it being there and it will heal over. The same cannot be done to a boy’s most sensitive area, the penis.

This is disgusting, and inhumane procedure, too even think to want to get it done is an abomination. It is an abuse of children & any parent who wants to utterly mutilate their child in such a way does not deserve to have one.

It is completely up to the child if they want to get it done, and i can assure you, they WOULDN'T.

What ever vile reason you have for wanting to get it done, that may be floating around up there in your head, is completely fallacious and moronic. Get your head screwed on and get back with reality. You remind me of a child abuser. The way some people speak, and try to justify such cruel and feral things amazes me. And for the stupidity that some people suffer when they believe it, i feel sorry.

Of course everyone shakes in their seats saying "oh this is such a sensitive topic", and it should be, for this is a childs genitals we are talking about here. We aren't simply talking about which baby powder we prefer, or what apple juice little bobby likes better, we are talking about killing or re-routing of a childs life.

[Baby Girl]

It is an abuse of children & any parent who wants to utterly mutilate their child in such a way does not deserve to have one.

It is completely up to the child if they want to get it done, and i can assure you, they WOULDN'T.

What ever vile reason you have for wanting to get it done, that may be floating around up there in your head, is completely fallacious and moronic. Get your head screwed on and get back with reality. You remind me of a child abuser. The way some people speak, and try to justify such cruel and feral things amazes me. And for the stupidity that some people suffer when they believe it, i feel sorry.

Of course everyone shakes in their seats saying "oh this is such a sensitive topic", and it should be, for this is a childs genitals we are talking about here. We aren't simply talking about which baby powder we prefer, or what apple juice little bobby likes better, we are talking about killing or re-routing of a childs life.
Maybe it is because I have had a bad day or maybe it is because YOU ARE OUT OF LINE but...

EXACTLY WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO CALL PEOPLE MORONIC, ABUSERS OR STUPID?

IF YOU HAD TAKEN THE TIME TO ACTUALLY READ THE THREAD AND NOT REPLY TO ONE PARTICULAR MESSAGE THAT CAUGHT YOUR EYE YOU WOULD SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE ASKING QUESTIONS, VOICING THEIR OWN OPINIONS AND HEARING THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS. NO-ONE IS ATTACKING ANYONE OR THEIR RIGHT TO BE A PARENT WHETHER THEY WANT THEIR CHILD CIRCUMCISED OR NOT. NO-ONE, THAT IS, EXCEPT YOU KEMPTON!!

YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION BUT TO TELL PEOPLE THEY ARE ABUSERS AND DON'T DESERVE TO HAVE CHILDREN IS DOWNRIGHT WRONG. YOU DO NOT KNOW THESE PEOPLE BEYOND WHAT YOU HAVE READ ON THIS FORUM AND HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE THEM PERSONALLY.

[willsmum]

You know what? This topic is a bit like religion. Not too many people convert once they've made their minds up. You are either for or against and it would probably take more than a few opinions on a site like this to change you to the opposite view.

Maybe everyone needs to just sit back and take a deep breath or two.

This is a friendly forum and personal insults don't belong here people. Those of us who have been around for a while (and many newbies too) don't want to see the general friendly tone of things deteriorate.

[kempton]

I don't digress in the slightest, what I said stands; anyone who says such foul things, or who carries them out or causes for their child to be mutilated will never get any sympathy from me, nor shall they get my authorisation to speak such profanity.

There is a good reason why people are hesitant about starting topics like these, and that's because you can't stay within the normal forum etiquette.
You cannot possibly stay within the bounds of such, when such ugliness is being tossed around on such a forum.
Some people are getting away with murder, as barely anyone cares to rebut there blatant rubbish! Heaven forbid if anyone should actually believe their lies!

Anyone who doesn't realise that Myf is obviously someone (wouldn't surprise me if it was in fact the disgusting culprit who lives in Queensland himself) who is trying to get other people to get their children circumcised is pretty naive. The story's that they are posting on this bored, are just not realistic "the boys laughed, when the told of where they were when there plastic rings fell off".. YEH RIGHT! My **** they were: Anyone who can't see that this person has some kind of hidden agenda has an IQ less than their age!

He is clearly creating this scenario off the top of his head: emoting what he thinks to be a happy situation; in reality it is sadistic and abhorrent. It just shows the mentality of the kind of people who support circumcision.

He is placing the doctor who did the operation as someone next to god! If this person was in fact talking about them self, the word narcissism would come to mind.

[Tannie]

I just want to agree with drbenroth - I believe and have observed in my work (nursing) infections and problems with foreskins from overzealous "cleaning" and people trying to pull back the foreskins of little boys.......this can cause inflammation - so people react by going "oh gosh - it's all red - it must be too dirty" and then try even harder........leads to infections.

Often this is done by well meaning parents, where the male/dad is circumsized himself so hasn't been taught or had to deal with a foreskin before. Maybe this is an educational issue that hospitals should address at the birth of little boys better??

Please - if your child has a foreskin - just wash over it gently with water in the shower or let it soak in the bath - no great "cleaning" is required!! Little boys penis's rarely get "dirty" as such & don't really require any more hygiene then any other parts of their little bodies.

Whilst I don't agree with the spirit of what Matt16 said - I do agree somewhat that some people (in general - not on this board necessarily) seem to be a bit over-obessed with the "cleanliness" of their boys penis's and seem to make such a big deal over it! If more people just put their boys in a bath and let the water just do it's thing...........would probably find fewer "issues" with their little willy's ;)

Oh - I'm very anti-circ for sure...........but I have to say that kempton - your posts are a bit outta line and do nothing to forward this issue but stir up ill feelings.........perhaps you could take a "chill pill" or something :)

[sopolicha]

Kempton,

Good for you for have the courage to voice your opinion, as zealous as it is. I would be interested to hear your opinion on immunisation, children travelling in cars unrestrained, parents smoking around children and the piercing of baby girls ears, to name a few.

And what does living in Queensland have to do with someone's beliefs or opinions.

[myf]

Keep to the subject Kempton, 'to circumcise or not'!!
Alot of us feel passionate about our views on many subjects, but attacking people for their beliefs is unacceptable.
You can think what you like or create your own story from reading my posts (sounds to me as if you've got far too much time on your hands) but as I said previously if I only help one person with a bit of 'hands on' information I will have achieved my goal.
I don't care two hoots whether you or the next person has their son circumcised; I felt the need to offer information to any mother contemplating the procedure for their son.
Incidently there are plenty of boys still being circumcised, Dr. Russels Rooms are booked out for weeks in advance.

[Milly]

I thought that this was something to post of interest. It is from Circumcision Information Australia. It is also full of links and research articles, statement and arguments that debunk many of the alleged reasons why parents think that there are medical benefits in getting their infant sons circumcised.


"Circumcision in Australia
Today the vast majority of Australian boys grow up happily with the bodies that nature gave them. Although circumcision was common from the 1920s to the 1960s, medical authorities have been discouraging and advising against the practice since the 1970s, and it is now pretty much a thing of the past. Most parents want their boys to be as happy and healthy as possible, and they know that leaving their penis to develop naturally is the best way to secure these outcomes.

Despite this, a few die-hard enthusiasts for circumcision keep popping up in the media, full of alarmist claims about the terrible risks of retaining the foreskin. This propaganda is contrary to the advice issued by responsible medical bodies such as the Royal Australasian College of Physicians and is intended to confuse and mislead parents, and scare them into demanding circumcision for their boys. Most doctors are opposed to circumcision and will not perform the operation without genuine medical need (a rare situation). The fanatics have given up trying to influence responsible medical and scientific bodies; instead, they aim to use the popular media to frighten parents into putting pressure on doctors to agree to their demands.

Circumcision was a Victorian medical fad which should have gone out with neck-to-knee bathing costumes, blood-letting, frontal lobotomies, and the idea that children should be seen and not heard. The practice survived because it became deeply entrenched in the culture of English-speaking countries, and seen as normal, or at least acceptable: few people came to regard it with the same revulsion as they would look upon surgical alterations to the genitals of girls. As the original justifications for early circumcision were discredited, the fanatics kept coming up with new reasons for doing it: if it wasn’t to stop masturbation, it was to provide immunity against syphilis; if it wasn’t syphilis, it was cancer; if it wasn’t cancer, it was UTIs … And so on. Australia inherited circumcision from Britain in the late nineteenth century, and by the 1930s about half of all Australian boys had part of their penis cut off soon after birth. Although Britain abandoned routine infant or neonatal circumcision in the 1940s, the practice continued here until the 1970s, when paediatricians recommended against the procedure. The practice has been in decline ever since and now affects only about 12 per cent of Australian boys.

Australia largely abandoned medically unnecessary circumcision in the 1980s, and did so with very little fuss, but in the late 1990s the issue suddenly became controversial. The main reason for this are the efforts of a few die-hard circumcision enthusiasts influenced by propaganda from the USA and other cultures where routine male circumcision is the rule. They make strident, aggressive and implausible claims for the protective effect of circumcision against a number of diseases which have defied normal control strategies, such as HIV-AIDS, and as a means of preventing trivial penis problems in infancy. Circumcision advocates attempt to exploit public fears of AIDS and cancer by demanding universal circumcision of male infants as a public health measure. They offer the feeble and misleading analogy that amputation is just like immunisation, and thus a harmless and effective medical intervention which should be made compulsory.

The main objective of this propaganda is to halt the decline of routine or medically unnecessary in the USA and revive the practice in Australia and Britain. A few Australian GPs and other practitioners also exploit these fears as a business strategy. "

http://www.circinfo.org/

Other interesting info:
Canada has recently taken it off their medical claims list (like our Medicare) and parents can not claim anything back on the procedure. Canada has put it down as a cosmetic procedure and is not claimable to parents at all.

[angcaltam]

drbenroth,
My children do have a medical condition, with our eldest we couldn't pull his forskin back not due to it still being attached but due to the skin being to tight to be pulled back. There was hardly even a whole at the end of the penis.
Just thought that I would clear that up.

[angcaltam]

Angus had infection after infection from the time he was born and the Dr's tried everything. They tried Betnovate Ointment and that did help but as soon as we stopped putting it on him we would be back to the start again. We got a couple of Dr's opinions but they all said the same.
It was cruel for him to have to keep going through it time after time. All the Dr's said that he would have to be done sooner or later because of his condition so we thought sooner would be better for him.
I never wanted to get my kids done so it was my last option. I made sure that there was nothing else that we could try.
With Caleb he has the same problem but not as bad and things are looking good for him. We are using the cream and for the last week or so we have been able to pull the foreskin back. So we are very happy about that. It will be great if we don't have to get him done.
I just wanted to let you know that we didn't want to get him done but we had no other choice.

[willsmum]

Katherine, It's sad that you needed to justify yourself again. I don't think even the most hard-line anti-circ people would condemn you for doing what was necessary for your boy.

[angcaltam]

Willsmum,
Thank you for your support. I hated having to get Angus done and will do everything to prevent Caleb from getting done.
Who is drbenroth anyway?

[myf]

No-body looks forward to having their kids circumcised!
It's a terrible ordeal for everyone involved.
It's not a decision that is eay to make! But hell there are some opinionated people out there who think it's their right to condem those who decide that it is the best thing for their child. How dare ANYONE make you feel that you have to explain why you had your child circumcised. You did it for your own reasons and you should never have to explain yourself to anyone.
I have had my boys circumcised and the last thing I am going to do is critcise another Mother for NOT having their boys circumcised.
Just as Mothers who are anti-circ and readily voice their opinion against my beliefs, I can think of many a reason to condem them for NOT having their boys circumcised, but to be honest I can't be bothered and I'm not interested in what they do with their kids.
I know I have done the best thing possible for my children and NOTHING will change that.
To be honest these people need to spend the time concentrating on their own children and parenting instead of pushing their beliefs upon other people.

[andrewJ]

If type 1 female circumcision ( Cutting away the clitoral hood) was performed in Hospitals at birth what would be your arguments against it? would you even be against it? i hope you would.
would you speak out against it?
would you feel like you have the right to criticise it?
perhaps the duty?

Remember that there are doctors who support type 1 female circumcision and claim that it has health benefits and of course it looks much better.
You may find it interesting that there are many circumcised African women who flat out deny that their sexuality is in anyway different. This goes against science, common sense and anecdotal experience.


PLease explain.. would you remain silent because you feel that people should be free to mutilate their own children?

Thankfully we do not have to worry so much about that in Austalia because female circumcision was made illegall in 1995. ( not long ago is it).

It is my hope that the law will soon extend its protection to boys also.

[andrewJ]

The following are the comments of an Amnesty international section director (and human rights comissioner) who describes herself as a feminist. (Junos)

“When you look at different cultures, all the same arguments for male infant circumcision are also used for FGM, and vice-versa. Like many cultural practices, once their origins are forgotten, it [MGM] becomes a traditional practice and people forget that its original purpose was to subjugate men. Whatever the intent then or now, its effect is to damage the [male] victim’s sexual sensitivity. I can’t speak to why doctors are doing it today, but in the 1800s and early 1900s doctors knew exactly why they were circumcising – which was to subjugate and control male sexuality. That is what the medical profession has inherited, whether they like it or not. The sexual desensitization of the penis has become shrouded in history.”

"To go to another country and tell them to stop doing FGM while saying nothing about MGM is a cultural imposition and a double standard. And many of the people who practice FGM see it this way too. The women who circumcise are being rapped on the knuckles and we’re saying, ‘What you’re doing is ******** and you need to stop’. But the men who are circumcising – and there are male victims who are dying as well – are being told, ‘You just need to upgrade and sanitize your practice. Just use a clean razorblade with each one.’ This is not only confusing, it is also sexist. I believe it is going to be more difficult to eradicate FGM when you are sending a mixed message."

[bubhub]

Hi - we've had some complaints about this thread - please keep comments friendly. It is a contentious subject and people can have very strong feelings. But please respect others right to have their opinion - even if you don't agree with them. We will start removing posts that we feel are overly aggressive or rude.

Please be nice to each other!

Hilary

[kamckellar]

My Son Liam Was Done At 4 Weeks Of Age.but Having Heard What He Went Thru,i Absolutely Decided That My 2nd Son Ethan Wont Be Done.my Sister Just Had Her Son Done And She Said If She Has Another Boy He Wont Be Done.i Think It Looks Cleaner But Neither Of My Sons Have Had Any Infections.they Say That The Bubs Dont Remember It Being Done But I Certainly Will.my Boys 6 And 4 Shower Together Most Nights And As Far As They Are Concerned They Look Different And That Means From The Colour Of Their Hair To Their Noses To Their Doodles.but Ultimately Its Personal Choice.only You And Dad Can Decide That. Goodluck With Your Decision.

[Caitlin's Mum]

Thanks for that. I was starting to wonder what I had gotten myself into. There are some scary people out there. Thanks to all the other people though for their nice opinions.

[nick's mum]

You said it! It is a terrible ordeal for everyone involved - so why do it? Quite frankly I don't care if anyone else does it but I don't like being pressured to do it.
And how dare anybody condemn someone who doesn't want it done to their son. I had a lot of pressure from my husband's family to have it done but there is no medical reason to do so. I was made to feel like I would be condemning my son to a life full of infections - what a load of crap! We don't routinely remove everyone's appendix at birth and if your son is unfortunate enough to ever suffer severe burns then the foreskin is the best area to use for skin grafts. Anyone who has it done for 'cosmetic' reasons is just selfish.
Incidently, I didn't have it done and my husband has since admitted that he doesn't care but was putting the pressure on because his Father was making him feel like he'd be a bad Father if he didn't.




No-body looks forward to having their kids circumcised!
It's a terrible ordeal for everyone involved.
It's not a decision that is eay to make! But hell there are some opinionated people out there who think it's their right to condem those who decide that it is the best thing for their child. How dare ANYONE make you feel that you have to explain why you had your child circumcised. You did it for your own reasons and you should never have to explain yourself to anyone.
I have had my boys circumcised and the last thing I am going to do is critcise another Mother for NOT having their boys circumcised.
Just as Mothers who are anti-circ and readily voice their opinion against my beliefs, I can think of many a reason to condem them for NOT having their boys circumcised, but to be honest I can't be bothered and I'm not interested in what they do with their kids.
I know I have done the best thing possible for my children and NOTHING will change that.
To be honest these people need to spend the time concentrating on their own children and parenting instead of pushing their beliefs upon other people.

[melissageissler]

Hi Caitlin,
I'm not sure if you have already had bub but am also looking for this info. I found a good site also on the Plastibell and found the info very helpful and more reassuring than some sites of a current doctor who has done this procedure for years. It is www.russellmedical.com.au Hope it helps. Melissa

[Stace]

My son was done at 3 weeks by a Paed Surgeon. I don't regret my decision at all. We were told to wait outside the Office, it was done in 5 minutes and he was brought out to me so I could feed him (He is Breast-Fed).

I had no idea that it was such a controversial topic!

He healed beautifully, and to date has had zero complications.

I think if it is something that you want done, then do it. If you are against it, then don't get it done.

I would never force my opinions or my justifications on circumcision on anybody, just as I would hope that others would respect my decision and not force their opinions onto me.

Me (24) :p
DP (25) :)
DS Seth (22-9-05) :D

[Caitlin's Mum]

Hi Caitlin,
I'm not sure if you have already had bub but am also looking for this info. I found a good site also on the Plastibell and found the info very helpful and more reassuring than some sites of a current doctor who has done this procedure for years. It is www.russellmedical.com.au Hope it helps. Melissa

Hi Melissa, yes I had my little boy done at 3 weeks (he is now 14 weeks) by the plastibell procedure and had no complications. If you want to send me a private message to find out more feel free. :)

[melissageissler]

Hi Melissa, yes I had my little boy done at 3 weeks (he is now 14 weeks) by the plastibell procedure and had no complications. If you want to send me a private message to find out more feel free. :)
Yes I would like information on who will do this procedure so I can find out how long it takes to organise etc. I do not wish to know what I am having so will be a bit of a rush to arrange if it is a boy. I have always wanted any boys I had done but am now worried about any discomfort but read that they use the EMMLA cream now. (Not sure if all doctors do). Thanks Mel

[tonic0]

Many people seem concerned about two things.

a) cleaning the item in question.
As a mother of a 3yo boy I find it more challenging teach him to clean 20 teeth than one foreskin.

b) That my son will be different to his Dad.
More important is that will my son be different to his peer group? By the time the boys are in the locker room he will find that if he has had a circumcision that he will be well and truly in the minority.

I personally left the decison to his father in theory, however, when my son was born I had extreme difficulties seeing him go through his heel prick, let alone something which is, to be completely frank, elective and unnecessary.
Thank goodness my husband agreed.

For more information I recommend you read Dr Christopher Greens "Babies" and his opinions on circumcision.

[A-J]

I beileve Circumcision is a personal choice.

I didnt get my son done, he has had 2 UTI's in the first 4 months of his life but that is to do with a kidney problem and nothing else. (he is now on antibiotics and has not had anymore)

My friend had her son done by Dr Russell and has had no problems, nor have I had any problems with her wanting to have her son done.

And just offhand - my DH's brother was born naturally circumcised!!!! (quite funny as he is one of a twin and his twin brother came out uncircumcised!!!

Amanda-Jane

[Sarie]

Yes I would like information on who will do this procedure so I can find out how long it takes to organise etc. I do not wish to know what I am having so will be a bit of a rush to arrange if it is a boy. I have always wanted any boys I had done but am now worried about any discomfort but read that they use the EMMLA cream now. (Not sure if all doctors do). Thanks Mel

http://www.russellmedical.com.au/


This is the Doctor that did our son. I can recommend him. Any questions give them a call, I'm not sure where you live, but they may be able to put you in touch with someone in your area who you can talk to.

[JohnC]

Due to the decrease in numbers of new borns being circumcised there has been a significant increase in adults and young men needing or wanting the procedure

Wrong!

The stats for males aged 15-34 years (including public hospital circs and taking account of the increasing proportion of intact men) are:

1997-98 1151 procedures 2.31% (total cumulative risk)
2000-01 1195 procedures 1.91% (total cumulative risk)
2003-04 1272 procedures 1.68% (total cumulative risk)
(Data sources: Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, federal Department of Health, Australian Bureau of Statistics)

Just one of many examples of people making up "facts" to support their preconceived ideas.

More dangerous are misleading statements about foreskin care and development, but I don't want to be pointing fingers - and generating unnecessary heat. So let me just refer to a standard hospital factsheet ...

http://www.rch.org.au/kidsinfo/factsheets.cfm?doc_id=3715

[scorpio]

For a procedure that some are suggesting is pretty rare these days, there seems to be a lot of families here who have/will get their sons circumsized......not such a rarity I think.... ;)

And why cant those who dont like the procedure just state purely and simply they dont agree instead of going into attack mode?

And how unkind to accuse parents of being uncaring and selfish regarding the assumed pain they put their babies through to have this procedure done......

To all of you who want this procedure for your boys, by all means do your research. make sure your choose a reputable Dr and go ahead.......you have your sons best interests at heart......and who is anyone else to judge if your 'best interests' are right or wrong
"

[cosmic]

For a procedure that some are suggesting is pretty rare these days, there seems to be a lot of families here who have/will get their sons circumsized......not such a rarity I think.... ;)

Unless there are people doing it in their own kitchen with a butcher's knife, Scorpio, I don't think anyone can argue with the published rates of circumcision.


And why cant those who dont like the procedure just state purely and simply they dont agree instead of going into attack mode?

I didn't see anyone attacking anyone else. Just giving people facts.


And how unkind to accuse parents of being uncaring and selfish regarding the assumed pain they put their babies through to have this procedure done......

Quite right, we do assume there is pain. Adults who have had the procedure done can attest to the pain they have felt for days and weeks afterwards, so why assume babies do not feel the same pain?? :confused:


To all of you who want this procedure for your boys, by all means do your research.

Why not just start with the position statement of any medical association in the world? There is not a single one that supports routine infant circumcision.


make sure your choose a reputable Dr and go ahead.......

Look no further than Dr Terry Russell if you're in Queensland. He's performing a fair few circs these days if you have a look at his numbers. He's often quoted in the media (he's in my latest pregnancy and birth mag actually!) sprouting off about the health benefits of circumcision, all of which have been disproved or have strong arguments to the contrary. But it doesn't stop him putting the fear into parents and persuading them it's in the son's 'best interest'.. no doubt he's putting in a new swimming pool or buying a flashier car as we speak as a result of his very persuasive efforts...


you have your sons best interests at heart......and who is anyone else to judge if your 'best interests' are right or wrong
"

I agree all parents have their child's best interest at heart. I'd suggest those parents get unbiased information - and not limit their 'research' to that info provided by the likes of Dr Russell, and others like him who ignore published medical policy in order to serve their OWN interests.

[Sarie]

For a procedure that some are suggesting is pretty rare these days, there seems to be a lot of families here who have/will get their sons circumsized......not such a rarity I think.... ;)

And why cant those who dont like the procedure just state purely and simply they dont agree instead of going into attack mode?

And how unkind to accuse parents of being uncaring and selfish regarding the assumed pain they put their babies through to have this procedure done......

To all of you who want this procedure for your boys, by all means do your research. make sure your choose a reputable Dr and go ahead.......you have your sons best interests at heart......and who is anyone else to judge if your 'best interests' are right or wrong
"

People who are against this procedure will never agree to disagree. How ever I only found Dr Russell and his staff wonderful and helpful.

[carls]

Wow - I've been reading through this thread and I cant believe what a passionate topic it is!

I'm having a boy soon and I havent really given it much thought except that I am going to have him circumcised. Why? I'm not too sure!

I spoke to my partner about it and it was a firm 'yes' from him. I asked him why and he just said he wants it done because he is done, it looks the same as daddy and he thinks it looks better. I just shrugged and said 'ok'. I really dont mind!
Part of me thinks it is more the fathers domain, just as periods are for mums.

I have only encountered one uncircumcised man in my life and that was an ex-boyfriend. It must have been quite uncommon for my generation to have it done. For some reason all his mates knew and used to make comments about it. I think he felt quite embarrassed and used to cover it up by saying "I'm no Jew!".
Looking at it from a strictly sexual point of view - I had no idea what to do or how to handle it, but I do remember some grimaces of pain from him at time to time!

Is it ignorant of me to not want to go and read all the 'for and against' articles? I guess its clear that mine and my partners choice is purely an aesthetic one!

[Sarie]

No it's not ignorant of you. It's your choice. People here will tell you you're wrong and doing the wrong thing by you baby. But it's a choice for you and your partner to make, no-one else.

It's something I feel very stongly about I had our first son done and our second wil be done soon.
Be happy with the choices you make at the end of the day you are both his parents.

[tickle]

Carls: It is definately your choice and no one can tell you what to do. But I do think it is a bit ignorant to go ahead with a procedure, such as this, on your child without researching it at all.
For me, I need to know all of the information to know that I am making the right decision for my child and family.
Good luck. :)

[Caitlin's Mum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by melissageissler
Yes I would like information on who will do this procedure so I can find out how long it takes to organise etc. I do not wish to know what I am having so will be a bit of a rush to arrange if it is a boy. I have always wanted any boys I had done but am now worried about any discomfort but read that they use the EMMLA cream now. (Not sure if all doctors do). Thanks Mel

Hi Melissa, I see Sarie has repled to you. I used the same doctor as her. It doesn't take that long to organise, just phone them after your baby is born and you have made your decision. Dr Russell uses the emla cream, you just apply 2 hours before. It definitely worked for my son, he didn't cry during the procedure at all. Hope this helps.

[cosmic]

Is it ignorant of me to not want to go and read all the 'for and against' articles? I guess its clear that mine and my partners choice is purely an aesthetic one!

Carls, I don't think you are unlike a lot of parents.. I never knew it was a hot topic either! I just assumed that no-one gets it done these days because there is no medical reason for it so why put my baby through pain for no reason? That's not to say I'm any 'smarter'.. just to demonstrate that a lot of people come to a conclusion about it without really going and reading all the articles.

It was only after I realised how passionate some people were about it that I started to look further into it and even though my position was always that I didn't think I would have it done, I'm glad I looked into it to feel very comfortable with that decision.

Sarie's point that it is your choice as parents is one that comes up for debate a lot. The alternate view is that it should be the child's choice when he is old enough to make it. Several men here on this forum are resentful that it was done to them without their consent. Of course, they are in the minority because most men like your husband don't know any different and grew up with lots of other boys who were also done so it was the norm.

Just so you know.. my hubby was the same as yours. Immediately said our boy would be done. When I told him the reasons I didn't think it was necessary, he completely changed his mind. He's a thinking adult who is open to hearing an alternate view and changing his mind, like most of us (hopefully) are, so I don't think an automatic 'yes' from a husband means it is a done deal. When I told my hubby that only 12% of boys are done now and that our child would be in the minority among his peers if he was done, he realised that the boy 'looking like dad' is not the important thing.

I also think many parents assume they will do it, and are surprised to find that it is not so easy to find a doctor who will perform the procedure these days because, as I said previously, every medical association in the world has stated that there is no need for it to be done as a matter of routine... so that often gets parents to thinking twice about the decision. Of course when there is a medical need, it's a different story.

The stories that circumcision lowers risk of UTI and STDs and other infections have basically all been disproved (it lowers UTI by a miniscule amount - boys still get less than girls whether circ'd or not).

And many, many, many parents (mothers in particular who bow under the weight of husband's pressure) have major regrets after doing it. Just ask some of the mums on this very forum who still have trouble looking at their little boys penis. So keep that in mind.

I don't think you are ignorant for being none the wiser.. but I am disappointed by any parent who would sooner have their perfect little newborn taken away and cut with a knife than spend a little time to acquaint themselves with the facts (which show unequivocally that it is completely unnecessary).

[rynosmum]

I spoke to my partner about it and it was a firm 'yes' from him. I asked him why and he just said he wants it done because he is done, it looks the same as daddy and he thinks it looks better. I just shrugged and said 'ok'. I really dont mind!

Hi Carls,

I looked this exactly the same as you - didn't really research it too much, just went with a discussion which was almost identical to yours above.

When my son was born, I asked the OB when the op would happen. He just looked away and said that he didn't do referrals, we'd have to speak to the paed. So, we spoke to him abouut it - 'When can we get it done ?' and he said that he also didn't do referrals but asked why we were so keen on it. I gave him the same discussion you refer to above. He told us that only 10% of boys now get done - what's the point of looking like Dad when you don't look like the kids in the locker room - and they are the ones teasing !

Hubby and I just looked at each other and said 'fair call' in equal relief. If it hadn't have been so difficult, we would have had it done but it seemed too hard at the time and in retrospect, I am happy with our decision. 7 of our friends have had boys - only one was done.

I think it's cyclic and will probably pick up in popularity again at some point but in many ways, to us at least, it certainly seemed to be off the list here in Bris.

To each his own - I'm happy my husband is done (oops TMI ?) but still happy with our decision with DS. Hmmm...a bit hypocritical maybe ? :confused:

[JohnC]

Is it ignorant of me to not want to go and read all the 'for and against' articles?

Not at all :) A quick Google on circumcision shows what a daunting task that would be!

Fortunately, the peak bodies of the medical profession have already done the work for you :D . The policy statement by the RACP is based on an extensive literature review and has recently been revised to take account of the most current research data. It is endorsed by the Paediatrics & Child Health Division of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians; the Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons; the New Zealand Society of Paediatric Surgeons; the Urological Society of Australasia; the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons; and the Paediatric Society of New Zealand. In a balanced assessment of the evidence it concludes "there is no medical indication for routine neonatal circumcision". It is not a difficult read and can be found at

http://www.racp.edu.au/hpu/paed/circumcision/


I guess its clear that mine and my partners choice is purely an aesthetic one!

Thankyou. I really wish more people would show this level of honesty! It would make the discussion so much easier without all this shadow boxing over bogus medical reasons.

I think the main thing to say about the aesthetic rationale is that maybe that is a decision best left to your son when he is old enough to do so. Circumcising him now deprives him of that right and places him very much in a minority, as others have noted, both in the eyes of his peers and his future sexual partners.

[cosmic]

How ever I only found Dr Russell and his staff wonderful and helpful.

Nice that while they are chopping off a bit of your baby's body, at least they are doing it with a smile. Now THAT'S reassuring.

:confused:

[JohnC]

I think it's cyclic and will probably pick up in popularity again at some point but in many ways, to us at least, it certainly seemed to be off the list here in Bris.

The idea that circumcision may be cyclical seems a relatively new one - I saw it for the first time in the Bulletin last year. There is however no evidence for this. The then Australian College of Paediatrics issued its first statement opposing routine circumcision in 1971, which was followed by similar statements in 1983 and 1996, and finally the full review mentioned in the previous post.

And despite some occasional "blips" that can be expected in any health statistics series, the actual incidence rate in Australia and other Anglophone countries has been relentlessly downward over those 35 years.

So you are of course absolutely correct that it is "off the list in Bris" - and everywhere else :D

[Caitlin's Mum]

It can't be off the list in Brisbane if Dr Russell is performing a fair few (as Cosmic pointed out). And for the record, there was no chopping or knives involved and I actually appreciated the fact that the staff were friendly rather than rude. Hopefully this thread isn't going to go down the same nasty path that some of the others have.

[cosmic]

Caitlinsmum, I think they are referring to it being 'off the list', as in not the norm... though there are obviously still a few doctors who perform the procedure.

And I agree that anyone paying for any service would expect staff to be friendly! Service standards in this country are going down the gurgler if you ask me. My comment was just that I don't think that has got anything to do with the decision about whether a kid should be circ'd or not.

And I agree the thread should not be nasty.

I'm just baffled that people would spend their time hunting down a referral and a doctor (having been told it's not done anymore, for very good reasons), bundle up little baby and take them off to the doc (several hours drive in some cases), sit in the waiting room and cry (as many mums report doing) while their baby is done, then hand over about $500 of their hard-earned after-tax dollars for this lovely experience... all for no good reason..??? :confused:

Not being nasty. Just - as I've said before - totally, utterly bamboozled that it happens.

By the way - thanks for the link JohnC. I'll keep it on file for other mums who might be looking for info. :)

[JohnC]

The cumulative incidence of circumcision (for all reasons - routine and medical) in Queensland over the past 15 years for boys aged 0-14 is near on 20 per cent.

So 80 per cent of Queensland boys are not, and will not be, circumcised. There are demographic reasons to believe this rate will decline sharply over the next decade - namely the rapidly declining proportion of first-time fathers who are themselves circumcised.

Claims by Terry Russell on his web site that the rate in the "greater Brisbane area" is 50 per cent are not only empirically unsupported but statistically impossible.

[Sarie]

Nice that while they are chopping off a bit of your baby's body, at least they are doing it with a smile. Now THAT'S reassuring.

:confused:

No chopping here, but I already know your opinion so I'm not concerned...

[cosmic]

Sorry - while they are cutting off the circulation until it falls off.. my mistake.

And Sarie, like I've said before I don't expect anyone to be concerned with my personal opinion. Just like I'm less concerned with other people's personal opinions or experiences than I am with the opinion of the medical profession. If you've had it done and feel perfectly comfortable that it was the right thing to do, and your son grows up and is happy to be in the minority among his peers, then that's great. Really! It makes no difference to me whatsoever.

But for mums who haven't had it done, I hope their decision isn't based on whether the staff in the office are friendly or not!

[rynosmum]

Nice that while they are chopping off a bit of your baby's body, at least they are doing it with a smile. Now THAT'S reassuring :eek:

Maybe we should look at getting back to the original purpose of this thread. This thread is for information gathering, not for judging each other.

Lively debate is fantastic but for goodness sake, can we try and be supportive to each other ? You're right Cosmic, some Mums AREN'T happy with their decision to proceed - I wonder what your comments are doing to them now.

Some of us disagree with Circumcision, some of us agree with it. It is still legally performed. Why don't you lobby the laws and the Drs performing the surgery, rather than the mums who are just trying to do what they believe to be right ?

[cosmic]

Rynosmum, I'm sorry that you took such offence to that comment. As I've said repeatedly, all I was doing was questioning the relevance of a statement that "the staff were friendly" in a discussion about the reasons for and against circumcision. :confused:

I don't want anyone to be more upset than they already are!! That is the last thing I want.

As for being supportive - I'm here to offer information to people who are seeking to make a decision and I offer my wholehearted support to those mums who have done it and wish they didn't. If I've offended any of them, I sincerely apologise, and they know who they are (and hopefully know me well enough to know I wouldn't intentionally upset them). But I don't support routine circumcision and would be a hypocrite to say to anyone 'you go off and get it done - it's your baby and your choice' as some other mothers do.. I can't apologise for that.

[Caitlin's Mum]

Look no further than Dr Terry Russell if you're in Queensland. He's performing a fair few circs these days if you have a look at his numbers. He's often quoted in the media (he's in my latest pregnancy and birth mag actually!) sprouting off about the health benefits of circumcision, all of which have been disproved or have strong arguments to the contrary. But it doesn't stop him putting the fear into parents and persuading them it's in the son's 'best interest'.. no doubt he's putting in a new swimming pool or buying a flashier car as we speak as a result of his very persuasive efforts...

I think Sarie's comment was more a response to the above, not telling people to get it done because the doctor is nice. Someone asked for advice as to which doctor to contact and the advice was given, which is what this forum is actually for - advice.

[melissageissler]

Wrong!

The stats for males aged 15-34 years (including public hospital circs and taking account of the increasing proportion of intact men) are:

1997-98 1151 procedures 2.31% (total cumulative risk)
2000-01 1195 procedures 1.91% (total cumulative risk)
2003-04 1272 procedures 1.68% (total cumulative risk)
(Data sources: Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, federal Department of Health, Australian Bureau of Statistics)

Just one of many examples of people making up "facts" to support their preconceived ideas.

More dangerous are misleading statements about foreskin care and development, but I don't want to be pointing fingers - and generating unnecessary heat. So let me just refer to a standard hospital factsheet ...

http://www.rch.org.au/kidsinfo/factsheets.cfm?doc_id=3715

i know the percentage has dropped but it is a bit of a curiosity that more males are getting done. Be interesting to know why. Any ideas please let me know.

[cosmic]

Agreed. :)

And I've given mine. Since no-one here seems to be asking for it anymore, I'm out of here before it turns into another nasty discussion. ;)

[melissageissler]

Agreed. :)

And I've given mine. Since no-one here seems to be asking for it anymore, I'm out of here before it turns into another nasty discussion. ;)

It is a bit upsetting that you are only their for mums who do not want it done or mums upset about getting it done but what about mums who want it done or believe in it :( . Where is my right to ask for this information to decide what i want to do (judge for myself). Sarie and Caitlin's mum seem to have coped a lot of flak for helping me with advice :confused:. Isn't it each to their own in this world. Bit sad when people tell you what you can and cannot do with your child. Whether I get my child done if it is a boy is still in decision mode , but that will be my husbands and my choice solely. Any offer of non-judgemental information you can help me with whether for or against will be greatly appreciated though. Thanks cosmic. Melissa

[cosmic]

Melissa, I'm sorry if you've misunderstood me. If you are asking for information to help you make a decision, there are lots of people here (including me) who are happy to give you that information.

If you have made up your mind to do it, then Sarie and Caitlin's mum can point you in the direction of the doctor (as they have done) and tell you what their experience was. I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time.. I just keep pressing the point that there's no need to do it and those comments aren't directed at Sarie or Caitlin's mum because that would be pointless... they've already done it!

I think all my reasons for choosing not to do it have been covered so it's pointless me saying them again.. but I would really encourage you to read the article posted by JohnC before. Like I said - every parent will give you a personal opinion (including me) so the only way to make an unbiased decision is to look at what the medical profession has to say. And good on you for taking the time to do the research. ;)

As to your question about why the numbers have gone up - that just means there were more males in that age group at the time. So more males were circumcised - but as a percentage, the number of men done out of the total number of men in the age group is continuing to drop (so the percentage drops). It's the percentage that is significant, not the number.

Good luck. :)

[rynosmum]

If I've offended any of them, I sincerely apologise, and they know who they are (and hopefully know me well enough to know I wouldn't intentionally upset them). But I don't support routine circumcision and would be a hypocrite to say to anyone 'you go off and get it done - it's your baby and your choice' as some other mothers do.. I can't apologise for that.

Cosmic, I think they do know you well enough and I honestly don't think you intentionally tried to upset anyone. This is a tough topic though and I guess that we all have to take some extra care here because it always becomes heated. I've always found you quite supportive .... maybe just not in this instance (ouch!) :eek:

I do believe that we are fighting the wrong fight though. Whilst Circ is available, it's going to be used for x% of newborn boys. We'd be better off projecting our energies into closing it down entirely. If all the research I see on BH even is true, surely there is enough reasoning ? :)

[cosmic]

I've always found you quite supportive .... maybe just not in this instance (ouch!)

hmmm.. perhaps you're right. It's a funny thing Rynosmum, because I'm pretty sure I'm having a girl, so I often wonder what I'm even doing hanging around in a circumcision thread (and especially if I'm upsetting people which is the last thing I ever want to do :o). Something about it just doesn't sit right with me. Like Sarie said, I'm one who just can't agree to disagree. Maybe I'll explore that with my therapist. :p


I do believe that we are fighting the wrong fight though. Whilst Circ is available, it's going to be used for x% of newborn boys. We'd be better off projecting our energies into closing it down entirely. If all the research I see on BH even is true, surely there is enough reasoning ?

I agree. I guess I feel fairly confident that the word is out there and the numbers are declining so it will naturally phase itself out in the next couple of decades. In the meantime, I promise to be more tactful when I share my views. :rolleyes: :)

[rynosmum]

In the meantime, I promise to be more tactful when I share my views.

LOL ! :D Maybe I should have taken my own advice ! I just got hammered in another thread. Apologies to you Cosmic - I'v just realised how easy it is to offend when you are trying to do the exact opposite. :o

I hope circ does phase out. One less decision and all... :)

[BRAETH&KALENSMUM]

I had both my boys done it really didn't bother me either way. you will find people against you if you do or you don't I let my husband decide because i don't have those bits and he does :eek:

[cosmic]

Apologies to you Cosmic - I'v just realised how easy it is to offend when you are trying to do the exact opposite. :o


No apology necessary Rynosmum. You're right... it is easy to do! :)

[degslou]

hello 2 all,

i tried last week 2 hav my say on circumcision & i got hammered because i wrote that my 2 boys are circumcised, and it seemed that at the time every1 that was reading replys was against it. it was a choice my partner & i made from the day we found out we were havin a boy, my 1st son was done at 2wks of age & my 2nd son was done at 5wks of age, both were done with no complications & the procedure was done by DR. TERRY RUSSELL. like i hav said before every1 is entitled 2 there own opinion & circumcision is personnal choice. :)

[Mamaduke]

Elle,
I had a look at the links you posted (although I must admit I couldn't look at all of them) and I'm virtually in tears!
Caution: personal opinion to follow:I never knew what a ******** procedure it was. When I was pregnant with my first son I always thought that I would be for circumcision. After he was born (4 weeks prem) I looked at his tiny little body and my husband and I both decided that he'd been through enough. With our second son the topic didn't even come up. I will have no hesitation whatsoever, if there is a genuine medical need, of having either of the boys circumcised, but for now all of their beautiful pieces that they came with with stay intact thank you very much!
A woman I know asked her doctor about having her baby circumcised and the doctor told her if she wanted it done she would have to hold him through the procedure...SHE DID!!! Takes a hard woman to be able to do that! (Oops, there's that personal opinion again - sorry!)
Carly

[pegasus]

Just a quickie as I've posted on this one before (see my longer post in some other circ thread).

For the people who say about whether looking like dad or brothers or whatever is a reason, but the majority of their peers aren't - my DSS was circ'd when he was 10. The reason was that he asked for it as he didn't like looking different to the other guys at school. I figure 10years ago is very recent, I also didn't think many of his peers would be. If it was me who had the final decision - I would have said to him to wait a couple of years (ie. till he was 18 and the decision wasn't up to a parent) as in high school when he's exposed to a larger group of boys he might find he's in a minority, and it's too late to put that foreskin back on, so I'm more worried about him feeling different then. Yes, it sounds like his reason was due to self-esteem issues rather than medical issues and as we all know plastic surgery doesn't help the superstars feel better about themselves (that's why they go back for more), so why should this be a reason?

I'm not saying I'm against people who circumcise their sons (my dad, brother and two nephews are circ'd) - I'm just saying do it for the right reasons -(ie. religion, cultural beliefs, medical etc.), don't just say they can choose when they want - because a surgical procedure won't fix how someone feels within themselves and a 10 year old isn't old enough to fully understand the consequences of his actions. :o

[WeThree]

hello 2 all,

i tried last week 2 hav my say on circumcision & i got hammered because i wrote that my 2 boys are circumcised, and it seemed that at the time every1 that was reading replys was against it. it was a choice my partner & i made from the day we found out we were havin a boy, my 1st son was done at 2wks of age & my 2nd son was done at 5wks of age, both were done with no complications & the procedure was done by DR. TERRY RUSSELL. like i hav said before every1 is entitled 2 there own opinion & circumcision is personnal choice. :)

i dont see anywhere were you got 'hammered' only people who disagree with your opinion :)

[cosmic]

both were done with no complications & the procedure was done by DR. TERRY RUSSELL

Well that's 3 from 3 for Dr Russell...

Just a thought... I have read on other threads that Terry Russell does a lot to get the 'benefits' of circumcision out into the media (like I said, he's in my latest pregancy and birth mag).. and he's even made appearances here in Bubhub - nice way to drum up business!

Do you think the reason the stats for circumcision are higher in Queensland could be attributed to Dr Russell's efforts? :rolleyes:

[WeThree]

Do you think the reason the stats for circumcision are higher in Queensland could be attributed to Dr Russell's efforts? :rolleyes:

Absolutely!!!
Personally he gives me the creeps, anyone as obsessed with chopping off parts of little boys willies as he is probably has a few kangaroos loose in the top paddock :)

[cosmic]

Erin, you're hilarious. But I don't think he's as obsessed with the chopping thing (and they don't chop anymore remember.. I was already picked up for that earlier!) as he is with the size of his retirement fund IYKWIM!! He's got a lovely little niche market now that so few other doctors will do it.

Smart? Some would say absolutely. Ethical?? :rolleyes:

[WeThree]

as he is with the size of his retirement fund IYKWIM!! He's got a lovely little niche market now that so few other doctors will do it.

Smart? Some would say absolutely. Ethical?? :rolleyes:

hehe yes, he must be rolling in it, no wonder he is so keen to promote the wonder that is circumscision ;)

[JohnC]

i know the percentage has dropped but it is a bit of a curiosity that more males are getting done. Be interesting to know why. Any ideas please let me know.

There were about 500,000 more intact males in the 15-34 year age group in 2003-04 compared with 1997-98 but only 121 additional circumcisions. That's why, as Cosmic said, it is the percentage that is important.


No chopping here

Sorry - while they are cutting off the circulation until it falls off.. my mistake.

and they don't chop anymore remember.. I was already picked up for that earlier!

There seems to be a view that the Plastibell technique is a kind of Clayton's surgery - no cutting or excisions involved. This is wrong (though you could be excused for forming that impression from Terry Russell's website). Here is a description of the technique (from the Medical Journal of Australia, emphases added):


The prepuce is separated from the glans after a small preliminary dorsal slit has been made, and the Plastibell is inserted over the glans under the prepuce, which is then tied tightly round it at the base with a thread. The prepuce beyond the thread is then excised, and the Plastibell remaining in situ as a hæmostatic agent

While Plastibell is undoubtedly a better technique than some other clamp methods, complications still occur. Specific to the technique (from the same article):


Three types of early complications were seen. The immediate one was bleeding at the time of the operation. This may be the result of the following occurrences.
1. The ligature not being tied tightly enough.
2. The initial dorsal slit (preputiotomy) being carried too far towards the corona, allowing the apex of the incision in the inner layer to retract behind the ligature. This results in a shaft hæmatoma.
3. Injury to the frenulum while separating the adherent foreskin.
It was found that the only way to control such bleeding was to remove the Plastibell and resort to the ligature and suture method.

The late complications, particularly meatal ulceration and stenosis, skin bridges and chordee are independent of technique since they result from circumcision as such.

Finally, it should be noted that EMLA cream on its own is unlikely to provide adequate anaesthesia for such a procedure.

[Caitlin's Mum]

It's a funny thing Rynosmum, because I'm pretty sure I'm having a girl, so I often wonder what I'm even doing hanging around in a circumcision thread..

I'm wondering also. :confused:



As for being supportive - I'm here to offer information to people who are seeking to make a decision...

Haven't seen any relative information in the last few posts. Now John C - he has information which people might be actually looking for.

[cosmic]

Caitlin's mum, I had posted a response to you, but deleted it because I don't see a need to fuel the fire with any more sugar-coated sarcasm and swipes.

I've made concessions and offered apologies in this thread (sometimes even if I didn't think they should be necessary) in order to keep this conversation from becoming a slanging match. There is a wise saying that is "After someone apologises, don't lecture them". I'm not sure your last post was necessary. You certainly had a right to post it, but I just wonder whether it served to keep the conversation at an amicable level.

As for my last few posts, they were merely conversation about the reputation of a particular doctor and whether it might correlate with the incidence of circumcision. It was just a conversation and you were welcome to contribute to it, if you had an opinion. :)

[WeThree]

cosmic, dont bother my dear, some people just dont get it........
(might do me good to take my own advice sometimes too, lol :) )

[degslou]

i dont see anywhere were you got 'hammered' only people who disagree with your opinion :)

hey there,

no one saw the private messages.

[cosmic]

Leah, did you get private messages?? You know if you - or anyone else - gets unwanted (nasty) PMs you can email Hilary at Bubhub and she'll put a stop to it. It's not on!

[WeThree]

ditto to what cosmic said, nasty pms, that harass, intimidate, etc are not on!!!!:mad: report them to hilary asap!!!

[cosmic]

There seems to be a view that the Plastibell technique is a kind of Clayton's surgery - no cutting or excisions involved. This is wrong (though you could be excused for forming that impression from Terry Russell's website).

Thanks JohnC. I was under the impression the plastibell procedure did involve cutting, but when I was contradicted by mums who've had their boys' done, I figured they'd know better and assumed my info must be out of date. Seems it wasn't after all.

[nemosmum]

hey there,

no one saw the private messages.

Yes report them! I have recieved two nasty pms in the past and regretablely I only reported the second one. The person who sent me the first nasty pm went on to harass other members so I did regret not reporting them!

Theres no place for that kind of thing on here :mad:

I hope you dont get any more but if you do report them at once JMO.

[talon]

There seems to be a view that the Plastibell technique is a kind of Clayton's surgery - no cutting or excisions involved. This is wrong (though you could be excused for forming that impression from Terry Russell's website). Here is a description of the technique (from the Medical Journal of Australia, emphases added):


The prepuce is separated from the glans after a small preliminary dorsal slit has been made, and the Plastibell is inserted over the glans under the prepuce, which is then tied tightly round it at the base with a thread. The prepuce beyond the thread is then excised, and the Plastibell remaining in situ as a hæmostatic agent

I have to agree with John C on this one. They do snip off the excess foreskin after they insert the plastibell as far as i know. I can't honestly say though, that there isn't an alternate way which involves leaving the excess skin on afterwards.

[rynosmum]

Yes, why are Queenslanders obsessed with this amputation?

Hi Dilly, I'm in Queensland and out of 7 baby boys born in the past few years in our circle of friends, only one was done. I don't believe therefore that Qlders are obsessed with circumcision however there is obviously still a demand here for it - not sure why. It was certainly never recommended to me by the OBs or the hospital. :)

[melissageissler]

Absolutely!!!
Personally he gives me the creeps, anyone as obsessed with chopping off parts of little boys willies as he is probably has a few kangaroos loose in the top paddock :)

I still haven't decided which way to go but coming from a religious background originally made the decision easier to go for it. But with it so hard to get it done these days I was really upset and confused so read in revelations that it makes no difference as to whether a man is or isn't. But I would rather send someone to a Dr (RUSSELL) etc, with years of experience than a back yardie. Wouldn't you. :confused:

[melissageissler]

I did like the sound of using this cream for circumcision especially for when they get snipped but am curious as to whether any adult has used it for anything and found it did any numbing or not. Thanks

[stormanet]

Hiya :) We had our son done at 3 weeks. All went smoothly. See the doc at Mt Gravatt... he uses this bell system which is amazing. Christopher cried for about 3 minutes when it was done, and then let out a squawk when he did his first pee. All went well and I am really happy we had it done. Go to this website to read more http://www.russellmedical.com.au/ it is excellent. Whatever you do don't get swayed by other's opinions... do what you want :)

[razzle]

Hi - we've had some complaints about this thread - please keep comments friendly. It is a contentious subject and people can have very strong feelings. But please respect others right to have their opinion - even if you don't agree with them. We will start removing posts that we feel are overly aggressive or rude.

Please be nice to each other!

Hilary

Can I just reiterate this - keep it nice guys. If you don't agree with circumcision there really is no need to visit this section of the forum. Please don't attack others or be agressive and insulting on the forum.

[cosmic]

Can I get some clarification on that Rach?

I totally agree with the not attacking or being aggressive!! But the bit about 'if you don't agree with circumcision, don't visit' I don't get. People often come here to ask for advice and some are undecided about doing it. Aren't we all entitled to offer advice, so that the person gets a balanced view???

[razzle]

But the bit about 'if you don't agree with circumcision, don't visit' I don't get. People often come here to ask for advice and some are undecided about doing it. Aren't we all entitled to offer advice, so that the person gets a balanced view???
Yes of course! It didn't come out right :o - I'm a bit tired, sorry! If they ask for an opinion - go right ahead, but what I meant was - you're not going to change someone's mind by arguing a point if they're hellbent either way. So the argument just goes around and round and round and round in circles and ends up getting aggressive and nasty.

[cosmic]

Gotcha! ;)

C.

[bubhub]

Thanks Rachel for stepping in

I've had a couple of complaints about this thread getting out of hand emailed to me, so just to re-iterate, please keep all posts friendly and free of personal attacks/insults.

Thanks!
Hilary

[JohnC]

I have to agree with John C on this one. They do snip off the excess foreskin after they insert the plastibell as far as i know. I can't honestly say though, that there isn't an alternate way which involves leaving the excess skin on afterwards.
There isn't. An initial incision (dorsal slit) is mandatory just to fit the Plastibell, and after the ligature is applied the excess prepuce must be excised (unless the doctor wants to get sued for malpractice) or there would be a dangling curtain of flesh hanging from the bell. What should be left is a small cuff of flesh protruding beyond the ligature.

What perplexes me though is the mothers who haven't noticed that the foreskin has been removed and that there is a circumferential exposed wound :confused: . To take one example (there are others):

i didnt give him panadol of anything.. just a bit of betadine on it to prevent infections.. even tho they say the plastibell well is pretty much infection free coz they dont cut it at all...
they put the plastibell under the foreskin... tie it with string and its all done..
3-7 days later it falls off and circumsised he is...

What adds to the perplexity is that though these descriptions do not resemble the actual procedure, they are strikingly like Dr Russell's sanitised website version - right down to the betadine and the 3-7 days.

It would be nice if someone (perhaps Sarie, whose post first alerted me to the conundrum) could clear up this apparent contradiction between perception and reality. Then we might all be a little wiser :)

[jamest]

Circumcision is a personal choice. You either do or you dont. I wasn't circumcised as a baby - in a time when circumcision was the done thing and I believe that it didn't really effect my life. It is not as though people come up to you in the street and ask "So are you circumcised?"

I grew up as the youngest son of 4 boys of which only 2 were circumcised - mainly due to being born in the early 1970's when no questions were asked. My brother and I were told from a young age that we weren't cut and my parents showed us how to clean etc.

In my case, I chose to be circumcised at the age of 20 after recurring phimosis. This is not something that I had through childhood, it is something the doctor who performed by circumcision advised me can happen to any uncircumcised male at any time. My decision to be circumcised was my choice. Yes it was painful, but no more painful grazing your knee on the bitumen.....even as an adult it hurt for a moment and then felt like a dull ache for a couple of days.

As for my children, well I only have the one, a son born earlier this year. My wife and I agonised over the decision as to whether or not to circumcise him when we found out we were having a boy. We, like the rest of you, researched every possible website and even spoke with family and friends about our decision. Again, at no time did anyone ask me...."So are you circumcised?" They just listened to our question, thought about it and gave their response.

I am a Doctor who is currently studying to become a Urologist hoping to specialise in infants....and yes I have performed many circumcisions on men and children for a variety of reasons from just wanting it done to little kids getting their penises caught in zippers (quite common but does not always require circumcision). I can confirm that circumcision is regaining its popularity. Admittedly it will never be back to the 70-80% that is was in the 50's, 60's and 70's but I believe that within the next 3-4 years it will be over 20% in WA. Anyways....with all this training and information the decision was still the hardest decision my wife and I had to make.........our choice.......

My son was circumcised 3 days after his birth. It was not a case of him looking like his father, it was a case of two adults making an informed decision about our child.

I understand that not everyone will share our view and we were even ridiculed by other mothers in hospital for our decision (but let me tell you...most of the fathers wanted me to discuss our decision with their wives in the hope of changing their mind), but as I said, circumcision is a personal choice and not everyone will agree. In anything there is always and argument for and against.

[rynosmum]

Hi James,

Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. There is no doubt that in the field you are in and also with your past experience you would have had quite a large amount of information available to you to make your informed decision.

The fact that you conduct circumcision yourself but still agonised over the decision with your own son just supports the fact that it isn't an easy choice for anyone to make - let alone parents without immediate access to the resources that you may have.

I chose not to circumcise my son and am happy with this decision however I completely agree with you that it is a personal choice and that there is always for and against.

Welcome to BubHub ! We need more Dads on here ! :D

[talon]

Thank you jamest for your openness about the subject. It is hard to find people who have had the procedure done later in life to give people an idea of pain etc etc. involved in the procedure. Was a very interesting read and welcome to BubHub!

I was just wondering if you have any idea how common it is to have complications later in life from being circumcised? How do the doctor's judge the appropriate place to cut it off? I have been a bit worried ever since reading another members story about some complications he had as an adult (he was circ'd as a child)... :(

ADDED: forgot to ask, what do you think the reason is that circ's are starting to regain popularity?

[cosmic]

Thanks James. Your post was food for thought. I have to admit that after reading it, I wondered if there might be something wrong with me for NOT agonising over the decision. :rolleyes: I hear so many people say they agonised, and to me it seems a really simple decision (or non-decision actually because for us it's a non-issue) and while that makes things easier for my husband and I, I'd hate to think it's because I'm missing something...? Perhaps it is just because neither of us have had any exposure to what you have experienced, i.e. being circumcised due to problems later in life.

One thing I did feel more comfortable about after reading your post though, was that should my son experience any problems (and of course we pray that he would be one of the vast majority who doesn't), and need to be circumcised later, at least based on your experience that would not be a terrible, traumatic experience for him. I think I'd rather my boy have the same opportunity that you did to make that decision for himself when he is old enough and should it be necessary.

You are right that, for now, it is still a parent's choice and not the choice of the individual - and I'm just really glad that for me it's an easy one! :)

[WeThree]

Thanks James. Your post was food for thought. I have to admit that after reading it, I wondered if there might be something wrong with me for NOT agonising over the decision. I hear so many people say they agonised, and to me it seems a really simple decision (or non-decision actually because for us it's a non-issue)

lol i know, me too?! with 2 boys it never even came into my heads, or dh's, it wasnt even mentioned, i still dont get why it is 'agonised' over let alone thought about! if either of my boys need to get it done later in life then i will do it without a moments hesitiation, but im afraid i still dont get why it has to be done 'just in case':confused:
anyway, as my disclaimer states, thats just my opinion, and i'd be interested to hear on what basis you made your informed decision :) (there are also mums on this site in 2 minds about this, and im sure they would like some info )
welcome to bubhub James :) and sorry i erased your smileys Cosmic, but i needed them for my own post!!! :)

[cosmic]

I forgive you for erasing my smiley, Erin. ;)

I just wanted to add - because I hadn't seen Kriscee's post when I posted... that I am also interested in the comment about circ's being on the rise. I thought the numbers showed they were falling. :confused:

[JohnC]

We, like the rest of you, researched every possible website
...
I am a Doctor who is currently studying to become a Urologist hoping to specialise in infants
...
I can confirm that circumcision is regaining its popularity. Admittedly it will never be back to the 70-80% that is was in the 50's, 60's and 70's but I believe that within the next 3-4 years it will be over 20% in WA.

A most interesting post James. I was however curious about the fact that someone undertaking specialist training in pediatric urology would be "researching" circumcision on the Web, which as you are no doubt aware is but a foggy porthole on the actual technical literature that nowadays must be your bread and butter.

Yet I am even more intrigued by your suggestion that the circ rate in WA is rising. This of course is an impression that would be formed by someone outside the system, since the Medicare rebate data has shown a slight rise since January 2004. But those with a more personal knowledge of the health system would know that WA public hospitals discontinued routine circumcision from that date. (The most complete explanation of the current guidelines is Operational Circular 1814/04, Health Circulars, Department of Health, Perth, 22 July 2004). Under these guidelines routine circumcision can only be performed for "religiously and culturally significant reasons" but then only as a private outpatient following maternity discharge. The effect of this, naturally enough, is to slash the total number of circumcisions, while slightly increasing the number of Medicare rebates.

The immediate result of this can be seen in the ARDG returns (which exclude neonates), which saw the number of public separations for circumcision fall by 14 pc in the first 6 months of 2004 (Australian Hospital Statistics 2003-04, AIHW). We will need to wait for the next set of returns to determine the full-year result, but it looks as if the total cumulative incidence for boys 0-14 years has fallen from ~13pc to <10pc.

I am of course explaining this for the benefit of those without access to this data; it would naturally be part of your day-to-day experience, particularly as you have performed many circumcisions.

So my question is: what leads you to believe that this steep fall will be dramatically reversed in the coming 3 or 4 years?

John

[jamest]

As I said in my post, it was a joint decision for us to circumcise our son. If it had been my sole decision then I too would be curious as to why one with my experience would use the Internet to help make an important decision. But, the Internet is a useful, but sometimes dangerous, tool for those who do not have a medical background, like my wife, to gain an understanding of a topic. Whilst the information is general and often full of ones own opinions it provides someone with some useful background. My wife researched and I sat providing responses to such questions as “what does that mean” and “why”. Yes the technical literature is part of my day-to-day life but I don’t know about you, but watching someone not from a medical background read medical textbooks makes for interesting viewing. My wife has always said that Doctors sometimes take the personal element out of a topic and make everything sound ‘clinical’. It was for this reason that both of us used the Internet to assist us in gathering information.

John, I agree that the WA Health System has taken its standing on the issue of ‘routine’ circumcision. And yes I agree that ‘routine’ circumcision is no longer practiced in WA. However, routine generally connotes something that happens as a matter of course, meaning that in more cases then not it is practiced. In the early 70’s when my brothers were born (1971 and 1973 respectively) circumcision of infant males was routine. My mum has told me that the doctor came into the room and said, “we are now taking you son to be circumcised.” Unless you spoke up the procedure was done. My experiences and therefore statement that I believe that circumcision will rise in the next 3-4 years is based purely on my experience and not on any research. When my son was born, it was not us that raised the topic of circumcision with our Ob/Gyn, it was he. He said that 5 years ago he would have never even considered asking a patient as to whether or not they had considered circumcision, but due to the increasing number of patients requesting more information, this has now become part of his repertoire. As part of my job I speak to many Ob/Gyns and they have all shared the same experience. Some will open and shut the issue quickly because of not agreeing with the procedure, but others will provide patients with options. Whilst he was telling me that he is neither for nor against, he conducts his practice on the basis that every patient needs to be informed. A lot of people take what a doctor says quite literally and form the view that “if he is asking us then it must be something that we should do” and it is for these reasons that I believe the incidence of circumcision will increase. Maybe not as quickly as I suggest but it will given time, who knows. Plant the seed in peoples minds and before you know it……….

I read an article in the weekend edition of the West Australia a number of weeks ago, which stated that fathers who were not circumcised when circumcision was the majority are choosing this procedure for their sons. Whilst I don’t understand the statement as circumcision is now in the minority and their sons will be exactly like they were, in the minority, but on discussions with the fathers in the hospital when my son was born, out of 4 that I spoke with, 3 were not circumcised but wished that their sons would be.

My experience is such that medicare collects its data from the number of claims made. And yes, the incidence of circumcision is decreasing based on claims being made, but after speaking with fellow colleagues, we are of the view that a lot of people are not claiming medicare for the procedure. Again, I cannot confirm this. I know that when I was circumcised at 20, it was considered medically necessary but I did not claim a medicare benefit for sheer embarrassment. My private urologist billed me the full costs and it was my responsibility to make any necessary claims. The only claim that I didn’t have to make was for my hospital stay (1/2 day) which was billed directly to my private insurer. It is not something that you really want people to know about you when you are 20.

John, to sum up, I agree with the information that you have presented and I, in no means, meant for my post to create undue curiosity in your mind.

[mygirls]

[QUOTE=kriscee] It is hard to find people who have had the procedure done later in life to give people an idea of pain etc etc. involved in the procedure.


Hi there,

Iwould never post in such a hot topic, however i have had personal experience with an older person being circumcised. My Dh was "done" at 28 because his skin was to tight & it was causing splits (ouch!!). After seeing the doctor it was decided that he needed to be circumcised. He was put under a general for the procedure. Dh was very distressed to hear another baby being done, but was awake, who was screaming! Anyway the op was a success. He says there wasn't too much pain for him but he shudders at the thought of having to be awake like babies are. I will say that DH now knows both ways & really prefers the former. Whilst he still LOVES sex etc he does say it felt better when he had a foreskin. Iguess he should know ;) We have been told that if we have a boy he too will have the same problem but it is up to us whether we circumcise him as a babe or leave it & see what happens - thankfully we dont have a boy yet! However it is a very personal decision & one that parents should carefully consider before making that decision. I have to add foreskins are not dirty! Dh was always clean & never had any infections so please dont base your descion on "foreskins are dirty". But like i said it is YOUR decsion - whatever you decide :)

[cosmic]

I agree that the WA Health System has taken its standing on the issue of ‘routine’ circumcision. And yes I agree that ‘routine’ circumcision is no longer practiced in WA.
....
When my son was born, it was not us that raised the topic of circumcision with our Ob/Gyn, it was he. He said that 5 years ago he would have never even considered asking a patient as to whether or not they had considered circumcision, but due to the increasing number of patients requesting more information, this has now become part of his repertoire. ..... A lot of people take what a doctor says quite literally and form the view that “if he is asking us then it must be something that we should do” and it is for these reasons that I believe the incidence of circumcision will increase.

I'm totally confused. WA has taken its stand and no longer practices routine circumcision, but an Ob/gym would offer new parents the choice. :confused: How does that make any sense at all?

If what you are saying is true James, it is very, very disappointing because you are right - many new parents DO give referent power to doctors and wrongly assume that if circumcision is being discussed it must be something worth considering.

As far as I'm concerned, circumcision is a non-decision. The doc doesn't come to the new mum in the hospital and say "Right, well since it's a boy, what have you decided about the circumcision thing?". Parents have to actively seek information and generally soon realise it is not normal practice, if they were not aware of that already.
If you are saying that is not the case with your Ob, in a state that has the lowest (??) circ rates in the country, it seems to defy all logic to me.

Just one more thing, James. I appreciate the time you've spent on both of your recent posts, but I noticed one thing missing and that is your reason for choosing circumcision. You said you agonised, and that there are pros and cons, but you didn't mention what ultimately led you to the decision to have your boy circumcised - and given that you work in a health system that has, as you say "taken a stand" against routine circumcision I would be interested to know what led you to go against the position of the medical profession as a whole.

[JohnC]

... routine generally connotes something that happens as a matter of course, meaning that in more cases then not it is practiced
... My experiences and therefore statement that I believe that circumcision will rise in the next 3-4 years is based purely on my experience and not on any research
... I believe the incidence of circumcision will increase. Maybe not as quickly as I suggest but it will given time, who knows
... My experience is such that medicare collects its data from the number of claims made. And yes, the incidence of circumcision is decreasing based on claims being made
... to sum up, I agree with the information that you have presented and I, in no means, meant for my post to create undue curiosity in your mind.
Well, curiosity is giving way to something more like morbid fascincation as I watch this story unravel. Let me explain.

1. In your first post what attracted most attention was the confident assertion of an apparent professional: "I can confirm that circumcision is regaining its popularity ... within the next 3-4 years it will be over 20% in WA". Confronted with the irrefutable evidence that the rate is actually declining, you abandon this ringing confirmation and replace it with what can only be described as wishful thinking -"who knows" :confused: - backed by a most peculiar mix of anecdote and speculation.

2. Whatever routine circumcision may connote in your mind, to a doctor it is "elective surgery performed without medical indication" (AAPS). In WA, Spilsbury et al (you have read their papers?) show that routine circumcision accounted for two-thirds of all circumcisions on boys aged 0-14 years in 1999.

For hospitals, the meaning of routine circumcision is precisely specified: diagnostic code Z41.2, which falls in the chapter of the ICD-10-AM standard entiltled "Procedures for purposes other than remedying health state". Since principal diagnosis is a mandatory field in the patient record, we know that from 2002-03 to 2003-04 the number of routine circumcisions performed in Australian hospitals declined from 8,097 to 7,444. In WA the health department has effectively prohibited the admission or wait-listing of public hospital patients with a principal DX of Z41.2. This is a very important step that NSW and Victoria would do well to emulate.

3. The Medicare data is irrelevant in this discussion (though you seem to have misread my earlier post), since the falls in question have been among publicly separated hospital patients. Perhaps you are unaware that these patients do not attract a rebate, therefore there is nothing to claim?

I have found your posts of interest but confess that I am at somewhat of a loss to reconcile your seemingly shaky grasp on the nuts and bolts of the health system with your reported experience and professional aspirations.

John

ps to mygirls

We have been told that if we have a boy he too will have the same problem but it is up to us whether we circumcise him as a babe or leave it & see what happens

Rest assured that foreskin problems have low heritability - ie chances are any son will have no problems :)

[Caitlin's Mum]

Load. of. crap.

Dilly go away. Your comments aren't assisting anyone!

[cosmic]

Caitlin's mum, from our earlier conversations I understand that you have a son and you chose to have him circumcised and you are really comfortable with that decision. And I'm happy that you're happy!

You've also said to me that you have no desire to read any of the "anti-circ" info that has been posted because you won't be having more kids so you don't feel a need to. That's fine too!

What I don't understand is that, while you obviously choose not to contribute to the discussion in any significant way, you do feel a need to pop your head in every now and again and let people know when you disapprove of their posts.

I'm not sure your comments are helping either - so how about live and let live, huh?

[Caitlin's Mum]

Sorry about that - I just thought that Dilly's comments weren't 'significant' - my mistake.

I won't pop my head in any more promise! :)

[cosmic]

Sorry about that - I just thought that Dilly's comments weren't 'significant' - my mistake.


Perhaps they weren't - certainly she could have elaborated! Obviously it's a public forum and you're welcome to contribute - I'm just a bit paranoid that this thread will go down the same path as all the others and end up with people being just plain nasty to eachother.

[JohnC]

Caitlin's mum, do stay - more the merrier :cool:

But let's understand the problem here. It is simply a fact that on the Web people can be whoever/whatever they choose. But in a forum such as this identifying oneself as a medical doctor ups the ante, because you are in the mind of the Joe Public claiming "special knowledge", for want of a better term. Now if such a person (even if they really are a doctor!) goes on to make foolish or untrue statements (I mean of fact, not opinion), then some people will react strongly. Not because they are personally affronted, but because they worry about of the effect on other, less experienced parents.

Now personally I don't care if James is Sinbad the Sailor in real life. He seems a personable enough young man, and I think it's probably healthy to have a few males with different views in a circumcision thread ;) .

The trick, as Cosmic wisely notes, is to stop things degenerating into slanging matches, because then discussion ceases to be either fun or informative. So James might want to stick a little more closely to what he knows best (rather than, for instance, silly speculations about conversations between Obs and their patients). And Dilly might climb down from the barricades a little.

[WeThree]

Plant the seed in peoples minds and before you know it……….

very true, but this is the only ob gyn i know of to include this in his 'repertoire', wonder what is in it for him??

I read an article in the weekend edition of the West Australia a number of weeks ago, which stated that fathers who were not circumcised when circumcision was the majority are choosing this procedure for their sons. Whilst I don’t understand the statement as circumcision is now in the minority and their sons will be exactly like they were, in the minority, but on discussions with the fathers in the hospital when my son was born, out of 4 that I spoke with, 3 were not circumcised but wished that their sons would be.

~This is a very vague statement. What paper? How was this data collected? Maybe they asked 4 men in just one hospital??? :p :confused:

~My dh is not done and no way would he let anyone near his precious little boys private partrs unless it was absolutely necessary!!

It is not something that you really want people to know about you when you are 20.

Why not? did you have an ex gf at medicare who might see the form and recognise your name?? (hehe :) )



James, sorry if it appears as if i am having a go at you, its just that your whole post, whilst friendly and non confrontational, seems very vague, and you dont have a single fact to back up any of your claims. You also still havnt shared with us the facts that led you to your 'agonising' decision, please share! :)

[Sarie]

Load. of. crap.

This kind of coment really doesn't help anyone, it's not constructive and it only aids in the thread going down hill like the others.

[WeThree]

omgosh, i just found the same post of mine 3 times!! sorry if everyone thought i was stuttering, i tried a couple of times to post the other day when bubhub was having trouble and thought it didnt work, so i posted again today, but obviously they did!!

oh and btw, is Dilly started to seem familiar to anyone else? or is it just me?

[cosmic]

oh and btw, is Dilly started to seem familiar to anyone else? or is it just me?

Wasn't going to say anything Erin... but yes.. and I think it's not. (PM me!)

[talon]

oh and btw, is Dilly started to seem familiar to anyone else? or is it just me?

you must have been reading my mind. :rolleyes: Quite frankly, I don't see what the issue is with Caitlin's mum's comment. At least she is constructive and contributes something worthwhile reading, regardless of stance.

ADDED: I can understand that this topic can be quite an offensive one to some people but consistently posting like that just gets people's backs up and stalls discussion (or gets threads locked....again :rolleyes: ).

*wanders off to hide under table* ;)

[cosmic]

I didn't mean to have a go at Caitlin's mum and can understand Dilly's comments didn't appear to be contributing greatly. Perhaps John's comments (below) more eloquently express where I think Dilly might have been coming from... ??


But let's understand the problem here. It is simply a fact that on the Web people can be whoever/whatever they choose. But in a forum such as this identifying oneself as a medical doctor ups the ante, because you are in the mind of the Joe Public claiming "special knowledge", for want of a better term. Now if such a person (even if they really are a doctor!) goes on to make foolish or untrue statements (I mean of fact, not opinion), then some people will react strongly. Not because they are personally affronted, but because they worry about of the effect on other, less experienced parents.


Whatever anyone things of JamesT's comments, I think we all agree that it doesn't help any of us to have people coming to the forum and misrepresenting themselves in an attempt to influence us.

[talon]

I agree with you Cosmic. People shouldn't come onto this forum to influence a discussion by using their qualifications or whatever. But JamesT hasn't really been given a chance to elaborate more on this yet. I will reserve my judgement until that time...I am hoping that he does make the time to come back and provide a bit more info on where he is coming from.

JamesT! Please visit us.....we wish to discuss further..... :)

[cosmic]

I agree! Where are you James?? Surely we didn't scare him off! :eek:

[DoulaFelicity]

Originally Posted by JohnC: But let's understand the problem here. It is simply a fact that on the Web people can be whoever/whatever they choose. But in a forum such as this identifying oneself as a medical doctor ups the ante, because you are in the mind of the Joe Public claiming "special knowledge", for want of a better term.

Absolutely. Did I mention that I am actually a neurosurgeon, specialising in the piffle, codswallop and hogwash theorem? ;) In my spare time, I enjoy designing and building skyscrapers, flying on the trapeze with the travelling circus...and, of course, BubHub.

:p

[WeThree]

lol lol felicity, hey you are one post away from becoming a senior member~woo hoo!!:D

[DoulaFelicity]

Then maybe I should use this post not only to rack up that 1 extra post...but to evilly contribute to the smiley shortage, coops!

;) :( :D :confused:

Rightio, lightheartedness over. Sorry all. Return to the conversation at hand as though I were never here...

[tickle]

Absolutely. Did I mention that I am actually a neurosurgeon, specialising in the piffle, codswallop and hogwash theorem? ;) In my spare time, I enjoy designing and building skyscrapers, flying on the trapeze with the travelling circus...and, of course, BubHub.

:p
I suspected as much. You sneaky woman you!! LOL :p
Hey stop that with those smilies!!!

[cosmic]

Absolutely. Did I mention that I am actually a neurosurgeon, specialising in the piffle, codswallop and hogwash theorem? ;) In my spare time, I enjoy designing and building skyscrapers, flying on the trapeze with the travelling circus...and, of course, BubHub.


Felicity, while I do appreciate the lightheartedness I think the point being made was a serious one and I'd hate for it to be glossed over with jokes (sorry for being all serious - and don't worry I think the smiley shortage is an equally important topic worthy of our attention ;))..

But it is a fact that people visit these forums and claim to be all sorts of things that they are not, in an effort to drum up support for their cause. I'm sure you would know better than anyone that people can be like sheep when it comes to any advice dished out by someone with Dr. in front of their name - whether in their best interest or not! Tragic, but true.. and I think the regulars on this forum should know that some of the posts they read and are influenced by, are not always what they seem.

That's all. Seriousness over. :)

[DoulaFelicity]

I totally agree cosmic, I wasn't joking about the point, I was using sarcasm to illustrate the point. We're totally on the same page here. :D