View Full Version : immunisation fors and against
noniandlilysmum
06-01-2006, 17:57
I have recently had many conversations with people about whether to immunise or not, the facts basically... The thing is where do I start my research... I have 3 children, my 2 older ones were immunised and were both fine, however the immunisations have changed over the last couple of years and I am wondering what the hell they are putting into our kids bodies... I know this is a very personal decision, but would really appreciate both sides argument... haana:D
JellyBean06
06-01-2006, 18:09
I'm completely for. Aside from the fact that you can't get your kids into schools here now without them, I have very little concern over 'live virii' etc when I've travelled the world and seen what some of these common diseases can really do to kids. I think many Australians are getting complacent (sp) because we are protected from so many illnesses through good hygiene and sewer systems etc but I would still do it. Even for Chicken Pox and Polio.
Yes, you CAN get your children into schools etc without being vaxed, otherwise it is discrimination, as there is NO law that says you have to vax - it is a CHOICE!!
You only have to fill out a conscientious objectors form and have it signed by a doctor.
JellyBean06
06-01-2006, 18:21
Well I know not many schools and CC Centres in Adelaide will do it. Most parents here vaccinate and those who don't, don't use the services or send them to Family Care or Private Schools which don't have that requirement. We've had a few too many cases where the Education Dept has been sued for allowing non immunised children in and the passing of diseases etc. So to put a stop to it they ask that all children are immunised. It is a choice - you just can't expect everyone to respect that. They argue that their obligation is one to all children, not just the unimmunised ones.
Sounds trivial but they will even kick out kids who have head lice. It's your choice not to treat it, but they can't come back until it's done.
It is ILLEGAL for them to exclude a child based on vax status.
JellyBean06
06-01-2006, 18:31
I'm just telling you what they do here - I'm not the Govt and Education Dept! :)
In private schools and child care facilities they can turn down children who aren't vaccinated. As long as it's clearly stated in their terms of enrolement. You cannot exclude a child for any reason from a state or public school.
Personally I cannot see a good reason why not to vaccinate. I think the risk of them catching the disease and undergoing the stress and harm from that is far worse than the rare case (very very rare case) that they fall ill from the vaccine itself.
At the most I've seen children have a rash and a temp for a few days.
we have threads similiar to this here in the past, and they have always got very heated, for some people it is a very sensitive topic. If you have some info you want to share, or some that differs from someone elses, let them know in a nice, friendly way. That way everyone gets a say. :)
In some states it is mandatory to reveal the vax status of your child, not all, and QLD is one where it is voluntary.
The only action that is allowed to be taken is that non-vaxed kids can be excluded from school/daycare if/when there is an outbreak.
oh i forgot to add, apprenticemomma, i think what jb means, or why she thought kids couldnt be admitted, is that if you do not immunise your children you need a 'conscientious objectors' form, or something like that, which your dr must sign. Otherwise your child may be refused entry into some daycares etc, and you will also be denied child care assistance. :)
well, in nsw anyway, dont know about the rest of the states!! :)
noniandlilysmum
06-01-2006, 18:45
ok, no offence but does anybody do their research or do they just immunise so they feel better at the end of the day... My argument is what is in immunisations? What is the base for immunisations? How does the immunisations work? shouldn't a baby be able to combat a disease/virus if it is healthy???I want the facts??? I don't want to know whether or not my child can get into school, I know that they can... I also know that you can still claim the immunisation money from centrelink if you do not immunise... I just want the fors and against,
If you read post #3, I did clearly state that in answer to JB - but thanks anyway! :D
If you have a look at the other thread, there is a book recommendation, I would definitely read it if i were you.
there's no need to carry on about it. You're stating the facts you know just JB and I are stating the ones we know.
I see you use the word 'fact' very loosely!! :D
SugarBlossom
06-01-2006, 18:54
I don't immunise as I don't beleive in injecting a LIVE illness into my child and I also beleive that you can build your immune system with food and healthy choices to be just as strong and resilient as a vaccine.
But I also beleive in choice and if you immunise thats your decision and please don't disrespect mine!:)
I'm not going to carry it on, that was my point.
SugarBlossom
06-01-2006, 18:56
I have done a HUGE amount of research!:cool:
um.... maybe we should stick to the original question....
I have to say that I have not done my research but I have read with interest many other parents' viewpoints. At one stage I asked if any non-vaxxers could point me in the direction of some good research but unfortunately I didn't get a response and I'm not quite sure where to start.
I believe there is some concern about the MMR vax because it is 3 in one go and can't be separated.. there has been talk of this being associated with increased rates of autism but again I don't know how much study has gone into that and whether it has been categorically disproven.
My friend had her little boy vaxed at whatever the usual time was (I don't even know when you get it done) but he was a tiny baby and he went into shock afterwards. So I am probably inclined to go with the theory that when they are bigger and are moving around more they are better able to work the stuff out of their system and maybe won't get it done until they are older.
Anyway.. that's a lot of rambling and I haven't even answered your question.. just my mixed up thoughts. :rolleyes:
hi noni and lilys mum, im not going to go into whether i am for or against personally here, because as i said before, and as you can already see, these types of conversations always get heated. If you want the facts, then the best thing you an do is research it. There is tons of info out there, both for and against, telling you what is in these vaccines, what they do, and, if any, side effects. :)
SugarBlossom
06-01-2006, 19:05
Cosmic,
If you do a google search on non vaccicination you will find a gold mine of info!
I also gave a website in a previous thread....here it is again www.avn.org.au .
It is worth a look
Mamaduke
06-01-2006, 19:08
Without entering into a heated debate, I think that it's thanks to people who do get their children immunised that there is the choice for those who don't want to...the diseases are alot less prevalent nowadays because the majority of the population being immunised, therefore lessening the chance of spreading.
Interestingly enough, I looked on the early childhood vax website just before, and it stated that the level of age appropriate vaccination in Australia is a mere 54% which absolutely astounded me, they said it was one of the lowest rates in the western world!
I'll try to be diplomatic
I have more of a "world view" of immunisation. Yes, there is the question of whether you think it is right for your baby, and that is a personal decision, but the more people there are who are immunised, the less risk anyone has of getting the diseases in question.
Diseases like small pox are completely unheard of now (two samples are frozen, one in USA, one in Russia), because of immunisation. No one gets this disease anymore, and that is entirely due to immunisation. We are better off now that smallpox is eradicated. Many people died from it.
Similarly, diseases like polio are now pretty much non existent in most parts of Australia, thanks to immunisation. My parents generation were affected by polio, leaving a number of people dead and many with life long disabilities.
If we can all contribute to the eradication of diseases like whopping cough, measles, rubella, mumps, chicken pox, we will be healthier people. I sort of view it as a responsibility to others, as well as to your own child.
Just my view. I'm not saying someone is bad for not immunising, I'm just saying that I view it as part of my responsibility as a person.
B
noniandlilysmum
06-01-2006, 19:24
No offence Carlyb, but that is not necessarily true that it is because of children that are vaccinated that the ones that aren't are not getting the disease as easily... Alot has to do with our living conditions today and modern day science... For instance in Parts of Africa their living conditions are just awful, their is no clean water and no sanitary health systems so the diseases are more rampant... However I appreciate everyones comments and respect everyones decisions whatever you have decided...:D
Ffrenchknickers
06-01-2006, 19:26
Hi
After much much research we decided not to vax...I am wary about getting into a discussion here again about it but feel free to PM me if you have any questions:)
I did post a fair bit of stuff on another thread here last year, I will try and find it for you. Good luck with your decision, its not an easy one and there is no right decision except for the one that is right for YOUR FAMILY:)
xxxTake care
Thanks Jazz, I will have a look.
Carly - see this is where I get stumped because I know lots of people say that the vaxed kids help protect the non-vaxed ones (ykwim) but the non-vaxxers argue that the rates of all those diseases were on the decline anyway for a range of reasons.. :rolleyes:
It's one of those things that if you just do it without thinking about it, it's easy. But if you start to think about the pros and cons it can do your head in. :o
OH NO!!! I, in NO way, meant that to sound like Vaxers don't think about it!! :eek:
Worded badly... sorry!!!!!
ohhhhh, excellent last minute foot extraction cecil!:p ;) :D
Mamaduke
06-01-2006, 19:31
noniandlilysmum
None taken...
For us, personally, the pros far outweighed the cons regarding immunisation...I would never be able to forgive myself if, God forbid, my children got a disease that was easily preventable with a vaccine.
ohhhhh, excellent last minute foot extraction cecil!:p ;) :D
I know.. and I had to type it reeeeeally fast before anyone jumped on me. Talk about stress! :p
rynosmum
06-01-2006, 19:33
I believe there is some concern about the MMR vax because it is 3 in one go and can't be separated.. there has been talk of this being associated with increased rates of autism but again I don't know how much study has gone into that and whether it has been categorically disproven.
Hi Cosmic, I watched a really indepth documentary on the ABC coincidentally just before Ry was due for his MMR. It went through the history of the MMR vaccine, detailed the studies that had been done linking it to Autism and the studies that had been done since which disproved that theory.
I also had a friend who refused to vaccinate his daughter with Prevenar (for Pneumococcal) due to a perceived link to Autism. I researched this one myself and found absolutely no link at all.
I am certainly no expert but I would much rather my child is immunised. I believe that the discomfort associated with the injection (and post-injection) is minimal in comparison to what he may go through if he was to get something like pneumococcal related illnesses. Each to his/her own but I believe I'm playng it much safer to immunise - our immune systems are not strong enough to fight some of these illnesses and I don't want to be sittiing in a hospital room wishing I had simply had a tried and tested injection. JMO.:rolleyes:
ah, thats the way its done rynosmum, polite, factual, to the point. :) ( i only wish sometimes that i could manage the same, hehe ;) )
lol lol @ Cecil:D
melfunction
06-01-2006, 19:41
When K was born, we had already decided not to get his Hep B needle that they tried to make us get. We felt that he had just come out and there was no need to put his system through anymore than it had been already. Had a great argument with the nurse over that one! Anyway, we did get him done at his 6 week check. We haven't as yet given him his 6 months ones either (must write that down). We did a lot of research into these drugs and how the can affect our son. The benefits for us outweighed the risks.
The actual immunisation has changed in many ways even from 3 years ago. These drugs are now made differently and the risk of autism is now greatly reduced due to the amount of heavy metals no longer in these injections.
rynosmum
06-01-2006, 19:54
Cheers Erin:D Sometimes I even surprise myself:rolleyes:
reAllytee
06-01-2006, 20:34
My mum had polio & now suffers whats called post polio & all i can say is its not fun especially with the stories my grandmother can tell i wont go into my mothers story here but she is lucky she is still alive if anyone wants info they came PM .
Pretty much was a no brainer for me in that i have been brought up in a house that yes is very pro vax but also one that shows what can happen etc plus with all the work my mum does for her organisation i know a lot of the ins & outs.
Just to let you guys know you now get the polio vaccine as part of your others now so rather than a range of vaccinations as well as a syrum on the one day its one shot so much better than when i was little thats for sure. Plus you did actually have the choice to get the live (sabin) or dead (salk) virus with polio so you did actually have options in regards to this now you automatically get the dead virus with the combination of diptheria & pertussis etc.
I had a bad reaction to my vaccines but my mother knowing what risks there were if i didnt have them made sure i had half doses or just holding them off until they are a little older can be an option & again this can also be looked into with you doctor.
Anyways one other thing to add & im not trying to start problems but its something to think about. If we were to say have an outbreak of one of these diseases & your child isnt vaccinated there is a high chance they may become infected etc now as a child more than likely you WERE vaccinated so your pretty much safe. How would you feel then ?
JellyBean06
06-01-2006, 20:39
We travel to countries who have every disease you could possibly imagine, so for us it's easy. I couldn't bare our child being crippled in pain and suffering. :(
Hi!!
My two cents worth!! I am completely for - probably mostly to do with guilt if my children became unwell from an illness that could have been minimised or prevented if they had the immunisation. I have had a friend object due to her husband becoming aware of studies related to autism through his uni research - studies which have been found to not be so reliable now. My aunty gave me a lecture on the immunisation topic (she is a nurse, so very for immunisation) and she believes we have a responsibility as a community to fight disease through prevention. I agreed in many ways with what she was saying but did wonder also when it would stop - how many more diseases do we add to the program to immunise against. But, like many of you, the pros far outweighed the cons for me.
Cheers
Liz
Hi N&L Mum
I researched while pg because I was not at all certain whether we would vax and had to make the new born Hep B decision. DH was COMPLETELY shocked that I would even consider not vaxxing, but I needed to know for myself.
I looked for information on risks of immunisation and in particular the autism issue, but mainly found credible stuff that said that there was no evidence of this. So I did decide that my kids would be vaxxed, but I was still worried about the new born Hep B needle. I decided to decline it at birth, because I wanted to establish BF first. If we had to take her back in 2 - 3 weeks then so be it. But our paed told us that because she was not in a high risk env, there was no need for the newborn shot. I had no problems with the vit K, cause it isn't a vaccine. We have included "optional" vaccines for pnuemoccocyl, meningicoccyl and chicken pox in addition to the standard list.
The one thought that really swayed me was "in my perfect world, everyone else would vax their kids, so I wouldn't have to vax mine", which I quickly realised was completely self centred. If I believe that vaxxing reduces the chances of my kids getting seriously ill, I have to do it for my kids.
But I really think that you have to do all the research for yourself. You need to believe in and be committed to the choice that you make.
Good luck in your search
I have recently had many conversations with people about whether to immunise or not, the facts basically... The thing is where do I start my research... I have 3 children, my 2 older ones were immunised and were both fine, however the immunisations have changed over the last couple of years and I am wondering what the hell they are putting into our kids bodies... I know this is a very personal decision, but would really appreciate both sides argument... haana
there is sooo much information/misinformation out there it's hard to know where to look. I looked into it before i immunised my first baby, and received complete bollocks in the way of information from both my Dr (pro vax) and anti vaxxers, which i didn't find out until later. I searched more carefully before i immunised my second baby, and double checked all the 'facts' given by both sides of the argument. I highly recommend doing this.
if you want to start with the pro/anti extremes, you can find the basic information at http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/ and http://www.avn.org.au/ , the opposite ends of the for/against poles.
my 4 cents- worth.......
i wouldn't say that the AVN is anti-vax. they are about people getting all the facts to make informed decisions, rather than just the propaganda the govt like to sell as fact and as health-info.
the reality is, is that most people are not that educated about health and generally make decisions based on information from their doctors. Doctors who stand to make alot of money from pushing vaccinations, and other phama-drugs. and for the studies that refuse to point a finger of blame to vaccinations, or other dangerous drugs, one only has to look at who funds these studies and who will benefit from the outcomes of the "research" to realize that the govt, the health care system, does not give us unbiased and unadulterated information.
vaccinations have been the "sacred cow" of medicine for decades. and every year some new "deadly disease" is propagandized to a sickness-scared public in order to sell alot of vaccines, a lot of drugs and make big pharma alot of money.
I remember having chicken pox. i scratched a bit and was in bed for a bit and then i was better. what is so bad about that????? why have we become so terrified of getting sick? the body and the immune system is an amazing organism that heals itself, if given half a chance.
the ingredient list of vaccinations, reads like a chemical cocktail you wouldn't want spilt on your skin, let alone injected in it. to deny that this mixture, being injected into a immuno-immature child, over and over and over again, will have no lasting effect on its health is laughable at best, and terrifying at worst.
maybe our list of "deadly diseases" has decreased (and the role vaccines have played in that decrease is debatable). but what about our list of debilitating chronic disease?? asthma, ADHD, diabetes, autism, auto-immune conditons, arthritis, allergies........the list goes on. and is there "proof" that these are caused by vaccination?? well, by the aforementioned studies, no. is there proof that they are NOT caused by vaccinations?? no as well.
I know it is a personal choice and every parent does what they think is best. but the fact remains that as more and more toxins are put into our bodies from injections, food, water and air, the health our our society is in serious decline.
I for one, would like to keep my childs body and mind as clear from these pollutants as possible. that involves, not vaccinating, eating organic food, drinking filtered water and doing a host of other things that keep us healthy.
as for further information, avn (as someone already mentioned) is a great resource with links to lots of other organizations and a great reading list. I would reccomend looking at some environmental medicine sites for info on how toxins (heavy metals, pesticides) bio-accumulate and have detrimental effects on our lives.
just my thoughts, not making a judgement call on anyone elses decision. just wanted to put some ideas out there that may not have been thought of as yet.
Ffrenchknickers
08-01-2006, 20:17
I agree with you Faery, but.......quick, duck for cover!!!!!
ha ha ha frenchie!!:D
probably right, but needed to vent all that anyway!
Ffrenchknickers
08-01-2006, 20:24
Yes, I agree, we need to hear both sides:)
littlepickle
08-01-2006, 21:03
Hi!
Personally, I am all for vaccinations, but would want to choose the vaccinations given, and not necessarily vaccinate for something like Chickenpox.
When I was a baby, was vaccinated against Whooping cough - I still managed to get whooping cough quite badly and was sick for some time, apparently there was an epidemic at the time, anyway, my brother who had not been vaccinated was hospitalised due to getting it so bad, he also suffered from the cough and difficulty in breathing for almost a year and to this day has respiratory problems that the doctor said was due to the whooping cough, I on the other hand recovered much quicker even though I was younger when I got it and a premmie baby. I guess what I am trying to say is that personal experiences have a huge bearing on the decisions that we make on a day to day basis, what is right for somebody is not necessarily right for another. We each want to bring up our chldren the best way we can and this is based on what we learn and experiences we have gone through. I totally respect people whi decide not to vaccinate. That is their choice. I believe in vaccinations but like I said would not necessarily go for the whole recommended coctail of vaccines. I havedone a lot of research into the MMR vaccine, and I prefer the idea of the three seperate vaccines rather than the 3 in 1 vaccine. I also do not want my bub to be vaccinated against hep b at birth, although I am quite happy to take bub back a few weeks later for the vaccine.
I think that when making the decision, research, research and research and go with your own gut instinct. People will always have differing opinions :D
Ffrenchknickers
08-01-2006, 21:05
I think that when making the decision, research, research and research and go with your own gut instinct. People will always have differing opinions
ITA! Well said:)
hey girls, some of your posts have got me thinking, immunisation is not something that is bought up much in our house as dh and i share slightly different opinions on it, but arent we lucky that we live in a country where it is actually a choice for us? I bet millions of mothers in third world countries would love to be in our position.......
Mamaduke
08-01-2006, 22:20
I bet millions of mothers in third world countries would love to be in our position.......
Spot on Erin!
Mamaduke
08-01-2006, 22:29
and every year some new "deadly disease" is propagandized to a sickness-scared public in order to sell alot of vaccines, a lot of drugs and make big pharma alot of money.
Tell this to the parents of children who have died due to meningococcal or pneumococcal, these cases are real and I don't think they would see it as 'propaganda'.
Ffrenchknickers
08-01-2006, 22:30
They sure would. But not just the choice to vaccinate, they would love to have our clean water, food and living conditions and sanitation that help us stay healthy and avoid these diseases (or help our bodies fight them off:))
very true, frenchie, and also the opportunity to not be surrounded by people with terrible infectious diseases!!!
we are so truly blessed to be mothers in a country such as this:)
reAllytee
08-01-2006, 23:51
my 4 cents- worth.......
I remember having chicken pox. i scratched a bit and was in bed for a bit and then i was better. what is so bad about that????? why have we become so terrified of getting sick? the body and the immune system is an amazing organism that heals itself, if given half a chance.
Were you immunised ?
If you were then its highly likely that this helped fight it.
And you obviously havent seen what the likes of measles mumps rubella or chicken pox can do to a small child maybe you need to look into that side also ? Its not always a case of being a little itchy & scratchy if it were then there wouldnt be such a need to vaccinate.
I for one wouldnt want anyone i know or even dont know for that fact to be struck down with polio due to everything my mother has gone through & still goes through to this day. Yes it does seem useless to vaccinate against a disease that seems irradicated but the thing is it isnt did you know there were new outbreaks not just in the likes of Ethiopia but Yemen & Indonesia ?
Imagine what one person who comes here carrrying the virus could do as it does only take one.
No one, certainly not I, is deneying that diseases like meningitis are scary, threatening, and potentially deadly. But there are no guarantees in life. you can be unvaccinated and get a disease, or you can be vaccinated and also get the disease. not even the makers of vaccines can say that they work %100 of the time or that they are side effect free.
My PERSONAL beliefs are based on research, my background in natural health and my lucky upbringing with a parent who is an environmental medicine doctor and my gut feelings that vaccinations are not the safe, wonderous drug they are marketed to be.
I had my first childhood vaccinations and then no more. No boosters, no measles, no chicken pox. I was also very lucky to have an in-house doctor and parents who thought it was important to keep their kids off crappy food and water as much as they could.
Growing up in a medical household, studying and working in the health field and having a partner who works in health and is about to start med school have given me ample opportunities to see children and adults suffering from disease that are even difficult to think about, let alone witness. I have seen people who have been turned away from countless doctors with "unknown or imagined" illnesses turn up at my dad's practice and have their health restored with a range of natural health practices. I have met these people and their kids and know that something is causing their problems that cannot be fixed by a shot or a pill. and we're talking thousands of people here, not just a handful. same as where i work now. everyday, seeing peoples health restored to balance naturally, self healing in action. it is inspirational.
Kids today have many more shots than when I was a kid. Both in variety and quantity. my feeling is that this significant increase is a factor in the rise in both reactions and chronic disease.
this is just my opinion and my feelings. I'm not out to convert anyone, just putting out my thoughts cause they may be of interest to the mama who asked.
Obviously any child getting a serious disease is tragic, and even more so if it is fatal. but my partner and i don't make these decisions based on emotion. we feel that disease is a natural part of life and we feel confident in dealing with things if and when they arise. that is our philosophy and everyone is welcome to their own and their own way of raising thei kids.
Thankfully there are no compulsory laws in this country that force any parent to do anything against their wishes. I may disagreewith vaxing, but others will disagree with giving herbal remedies to children, something i enthusiastically embrace.
basically, the medical model of health and disease in not one follow. I follow a holistic, innate, self healing model which goes at odds with alot of modern medical practice.
the resource list is endless, as are the opinions on this issue! we can really only do what we think is best for ourselves and our families.
:)
i wouldn't say that the AVN is anti-vax. they are about people getting all the facts to make informed decisions, rather than just the propaganda the govt like to sell as fact and as health-info.
With respect, Faery, I think you'll find the AVN are indeed anti-vaccination, and not particularly well informed. For example, they still list thiomersal as an ingredient in DTP, which it hasn't been for 6 years. Another clue is their 'childrens gallery', which contains pictures of children allegedly damaged by vaccines, however I noted the absence of pictures of children who have been damaged by preventable diseases.
You may not know this, but prior to 1999 the AVN were known as the Vaccination Awareness Network. If they are so neutral and pro-choice, why the change?
I'm not particularly pro or anti vaccination. I AM about informed choice, and parents getting that information in order to make the decision that is right for their family.
Hi Cosmic, I watched a really indepth documentary on the ABC coincidentally just before Ry was due for his MMR. It went through the history of the MMR vaccine, detailed the studies that had been done linking it to Autism and the studies that had been done since which disproved that theory.
I also saw that documentary and it scared the pants off me:eek: I too did a lot of reading about the study they talked about in the report and from what I understood it seems that study has been discredited by the poor study design, who funded the study etc. The overwhelming weight of medical evidence seems to point in the direction that there is no link between MMR and autism.
It's still scary for me, but despite knowing this, I sent my son for his 12month immunisations today.... (DH took him, cause I cry when he cries! :o )
I'm hoping he's going to be ok. I'm obviously pro-immunisation - I just think it's better for everyone (including our children) if we can get rid of these horrible diseases from our community.
Cheers
the_queen
17-01-2006, 08:36
I've been following this thread with interest, my DD is 4.5 yrs old and I haven't taken her to get her 4 yr old vax's yet. Initially I was just a bit lazy I guess, didn't get around to it. But since discovering bubhub and other forums I've decided to actually research a little instead of just doing what the doctors tell me to do. So I just wanted to thank everyone for their opinions, and particularly for the links, which I have found generally very informative.
When I studied child-care (in my pre-parenthood days) the discussions we had about immunisation were fairly basic. But the main point our lecturer made was this: If a 5 yr old un-vax'd child gets whooping cough, it will be painful and traumatic for the child and parents. But if that child (who will most likely recover from the illness) gives whooping cough to a newborn baby - who hasn't even had the chance to be vax'd yet - the baby would most likely die from the illness.
In my family, that's kinda what I'm concerned about now. If Vallerie brings some illness home from school, she's pretty healthy and strong, she'll be fine. But if she gives it to my new baby, s/he might not be able to deal with it as easily. Of course, being a mum (and having these pregnancy hormones coursing through my body ;) ) I am a bit overly protective and worried.
I guess I'm just asking for other people's thoughts/suggestions regarding 2nd children. Vallerie has had all her vax's, except the ones she's due for now. I have been considering not vaxxing this new baby, or at least, delaying the vax's. But I'm worried about the health of both my children (which, despite our differing opinions, is the one thing we all have in common here).
When I studied child-care (in my pre-parenthood days) the discussions we had about immunisation were fairly basic. But the main point our lecturer made was this: If a 5 yr old un-vax'd child gets whooping cough, it will be painful and traumatic for the child and parents. But if that child (who will most likely recover from the illness) gives whooping cough to a newborn baby - who hasn't even had the chance to be vax'd yet - the baby would most likely die from the illness.
This is a very good point!
addictedtobabe
17-01-2006, 08:55
My brother in law has polio since a small child and has to have calipers on his leg. The video footage and photos of him as a child broke my heart as he sat there whilst my DH ran around like a maniac! It was not an issue for us whether to vaccinate or not - babe has had all the vaccines so far up to 6 months.
I too question the need for chickenpox as I was not vaccinated as a child and I had it at the age of 10 and all there is to show for it now are 2 small spot scars.
It is obviously a very emotional topic on here, at the end of the day each to their own! We chose to offer our babe what we view is the best protection for him against deadly disease.
the_queen
17-01-2006, 09:52
But then I was just reading on the avn.com.au about whooping cough, in the last outbreak here in SA, 87% of the cases were children who had been fully immunised!! So :confused: what do I do??? Vallerie might still get it, even if she's fully vax'd, and she could pass it to the new baby before s/he has had the vax - oh my goodness, this is a scary and confusing issue.....
reAllytee
17-01-2006, 14:10
the_queen - Yes there is still the chance that a child who is immunised will still get the various diseases that they have been vaxed against the main thing to understand here is that what happens though is it isnt as bad. The disease is often easily fought off due to the child already having the antibodies whereas those who havent been immunised will get the full wrath of the disease so this then makes it life threatening.
If im not making sense i apologise im trying my best with the depleted brain cells i have LOL ! I often know what im talking about shame others dont LOL !
addictedtobabe - My mum had it if you didnt read my earlier post :) Pretty hard to watch isnt it ! Then some of the stories my nan tells of the other kids in the ward with my mum breaks my heart. But your right everyone should have the decision to make for themselves !
We are for vaxing. Both our boys are up to date and I wouldn't have it any other way. For our point of view it is just not worth the risk.
My immune system is shot and while hubbies is good and strong we can't predict how our kids' will effect them.
Nathan who has only had a couple of colds and one serious ear infection in his nearly three years, while PJ seems to take after me and get anything that's going around.
This is a choice that all of us have to make for our kids, like any other, lets respect all our decisions. :D
Funkychicken
17-01-2006, 14:33
The decision to vaccinate or not is a very personal one. I was once told by a wise person there is no such thing as a right or wrong decision, only the consequences.
I thought I would share this with you.
My 42 yo sil has the emotional maturity of about a 16 yo. She will probably remain there for her entire life. She has such severe epilepsy she recently underwent what is known as a split-brain operation. The main nerve between the left and right sides of her brain had to be permanently severed to slow down and limit her 12 + seizures per day. This results in many uncontrolled emotional and physical outbursts but is preferable to what she was living with.
The cause of these problems? Encephilitis as a result of measles as a two year old. Her first bout of measles was mild, it was the second one 6 wks later that did this. She cannot go back and change any of this.
Thanks for sharing Sal... some food for thought:)
addictedtobabe
18-01-2006, 08:33
allyoo - had read your reply about your mum so thats's why i put a reply too :) they sad thing is he was vaccinated, however the dose was found not to have been strong enough...they lived on an island at the time! It must have been hard for you growing up, but for your grandmother it must have been devastating!
Ana Gram
18-01-2006, 09:26
I made the mistake of clicking onto the AVN site and was absolutely disgusted especially with the cancer section.
I think it all comes down to the individual immune system. I was immusised (in the late 70's) and my immune system is similar to that of a post chemo patient and I know a few of them. I pick up every bug and get sick as a dog and can be layed up in bed for a week with a simple cold. My partner has also been immunised and might be the same thing as me but feel bad for a day or two and then shrug it off. My daughter, who has been immunised, has only ever been sick twice in her 2 years and that was only for a day or two each. The first time she got sick, I caught it and was ill for two weeks and had to go to hospital.
I always laugh about tha so called autism link as they never say that children can become autistic after being stuck down by a major disease with or without the vaccination.
The reality of research and case studies is that they must be funded. And they are funded by people who are looking for a particular answer. More often than not they don't include case studies that don't fit with their line of research. For both pro and anti vaccination groups, they will provide case studies backing what they are saying. But that might only be half of the case studies they did and those were the ones that fit.
I pretty much ignored all the "information" that both sides give and did my own case study involving the people I know and how they were affected, good or bad.
reAllytee
18-01-2006, 21:41
The cause of these problems? Encephilitis as a result of measles as a two year old. Her first bout of measles was mild, it was the second one 6 wks later that did this. She cannot go back and change any of this.
How sad to hear but thankyou for sharing your story :D
My mums friends have a son who has the mentality of a 5yr old due to this same problem & its sad.
addictedtobabe - Oh that is sad to hear but i also sometimes believe fat has a hand in what will happen to us all as often the ones who have a challenging life are the ones who challenge the rest of us who take life for granted :D
Interesting thread. I haven't had the chance to read it through yet but thought I'd post some personal experiences here to contribute.
I was fully vaccinated. I contracted meningitis at 2 and nearly died of it. After that, my parents discontinued vaccination at that point and at the doctor's advice that my immune system would not be able to handle any further stress.
The meningitis changed my normal base temperature. I now have a higher base temperature than is usual and I believe this has contributed to my health. I don't get sick often and when I do, I get a high fever and am over it very fast (1-3 days) compared to others who are sick longer (5-10 days).
I never really thought much about vaccination until we decided to have children. Gut instinct warned me to take a step back and look into vaccination and the diseases before just going along with "the done thing".
Vaccines don't fit in with our health philosophies or lifestyle philosophies. After much research and debate, we decided to delay vaccination while we researched more and somewhere along the way we decided not to at all.
Our children have had chickenpox, measles, very few colds, one bout of flu, one had a massive urinary infection at 7 months, and two had roseola.
All were treated with a mix of herbs, homeopathic medicine, vitamins, plenty of water, sleep and rest. The childhood illnesses were mild and our children while sick, got through it easier than I did when I got chickenpox as a teenager. My DH also got chickenpox twice (second time from the kids) and had a miserable time of it. He was fully vaccinated, including for chickenpox despite the fact he contracted it as a baby.
I think childhood diseases belong in the childhood where children are best equipped to deal with them rather than as adults. I also believe that people need to take charge of their health and that of their families, rather than depend on a doctor to "do something" when they fall ill. I also don't think vaccines are very effective. Our next door neighbour while in the USA was very ill with measles and her fully vaccinated daughter was very ill as well. We got our measles from them, and were nowhere as sick. The same little girl was always getting sick after her vaccines - colds, runny noses, lethargic, cranky, unwell, as were DH's brothers family. They all always seemed to get sick right around their shots.
MIL also got the flu after the flu shot :rolleyes: She denies it was from the shot (live one) but the incubation period for the flu corresponds from the day she got the shot. She tried to tell us it was normal to have side effects from the flu shot, but that it was not the flu. She ended up going to the Dr who said it was the flu.
Am now addicted to Bub hub!
Although these threads are a hot topic, they are good just so everyone looks at both sides of the issue - after reading through the circumcision one have decided not to go through with it, purely because the risks were too great and couldn't find any benefits other than he would look like his dad... That is another can of worms entirely, but my point is with vaccinations i can see the benefits, and don't know that i would forgive myself if I didn't vaccinate and my bub got something really nasty, but it is good to be informed of the risks, which i wasn't really with my first child. So thanks, something else to think about!
Have been reading through this thread, and just wanted to ask a question - all those who don't vaccinate, and i don't want to stir anyone up, what if your child did get one of the really nasty ones like meningitis? would you still be happy with your decision? Am currently 28 weeks, and have a five year old that has been fully immunised. she actually got measles a few days after her first birthday and i was kicking myself for not getting her MMR done on her birthday! she was lucky that she didn't have ongoing issues....
Like I said just curious - I know everyone has their own reasons for doing what they decide and don't hold it against them,
Kelli
the_queen
19-01-2006, 11:35
Have been reading through this thread, and just wanted to ask a question - all those who don't vaccinate, and i don't want to stir anyone up, what if your child did get one of the really nasty ones like meningitis? would you still be happy with your decision?
Hi Kelli,
This is my current dilemma. I am considering delaying vax's for my new baby, possibly even not vaxing at all - but the "what if's" keep popping into my head. What if s/he does get very very sick from a preventable disease?
But then again, what if s/he has a really bad reaction to a vax, and becomes very very sick from that??
It's such a scary topic - it's all about knowing what's best for our kids, but we have to almost be able to predict what is going to happen in the future!
I think a lot of it comes down to basic health issues - if the whole family is basically healthy, and everyone eats healthy food and has clean water to drink, and stays away from known toxins, then your own immune system should be able to cope with pretty much anything thrown at it.
I think the role of breastfeeding is largely underestimated too, in regards to childhood immunology. I can't quote studies or statistics, but we all know that breastfeeding boosts the child's immune system, and we all know that breastmilk is made specifically for your baby so it has to be a good thing.
(Please note, I had to switch to formula with Vallerie for various painful reasons - please don't anyone think I'm "bashing" FF mums.)
Hi Kelli
Let me put my psychics hat on ... (seriously, I do vax my kids but I was thinking only this morning about Mums who don't - so if I misrepresent you Mums, give me a kick up the b*m :D )
I'm thinking that Mums who don't vax believe that they are protecting their kids in the best way (with good food, homeopathy, whatever). They don't believe that vaxxing will protect their kids (or at least not sufficiently to balance out the risk of vaxxing). So I don't think they would regret their decision, because they believe they are protecting their kids in a better way.
You have to do what you think is right for your family. There is no right answer for all.
Cheers
Supermum
19-01-2006, 13:57
I'm with xkwzit - each to their own. I've had my children vaxed for everything and to be honest, the only research I did was consult my GP about the risks for and against. I have found that those who choose not to vax have done vastly more research than me.
reAllytee
19-01-2006, 22:14
I think childhood diseases belong in the childhood where children are best equipped to deal with them rather than as adults.
I understand what you are saying & i accept that you have your own beliefs so are of course entitled to your opinion.
Im curious by that statement as yes often children can have no problems with these diseases & shake them off no worries but then what about those who end up with encephilitis (sp?) from say something like measles. Its really not a case of kids being better equipped only a case of some coming off better than others.
I think the role of breastfeeding is largely underestimated too, in regards to childhood immunology. I can't quote studies or statistics, but we all know that breastfeeding boosts the child's immune system, and we all know that breastmilk is made specifically for your baby so it has to be a good thing.
Yes its helps children in many various ways & its great but its not always the case of it helping something like this.
My sisters & i ( so three of us ) were ff as we refused the breast full stop actually my eldest sister was brought up on milk from the get go as thats what was used at that time ! We all grew up happy & healthy maybe a cold here or there. Now my sisters got measles around the age of 8yrs had no dramas as it was mild so they recovered in a few days pretty much & ive only had ruebella which i had around 10yrs again only took me a few days to overcome no probs.
My cousins all 5 boys were bf exclusively up until 3yrs & the youngest till he was 5yrs had everything & by everything i mean gastro, colds, measles, mumps, ruebella, chicken pox pretty much anything you can name they had it !
Even my aunty who was a bf advocate even relented saying well it just proves that babies can be just as healthy ff ! I know your not attacking ff either im just showing what can happen either way.
Now dont jump on me here peoples i do understand bf does do wonders & the likes ive seen the studies etc but it doesnt always work on different individuals.
This was one example but i also have others from different sides of my family which is why im saying what i am.
I dont always take a doctors opinion to the word but when it comes to this with my mum being involved in many different things i have been given info & i read through this as well as talk to others but im just not willing to risk it not with all my mother went through.
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