View Full Version : circumsize?? to or not to??
HaydensMummy
10-05-2007, 14:31
is anyone gettin there little boy circumsized? why or why not?
i was thinking i didn't want to get it done cause i don't want to hurt bub, heard they don't use anesthetic, but then i read that it can lessen the chances of them getting cancer or other illnesses. 1 in 100 if not done or 1 in 1000 if done.
don't know much about it .
is it common theses days?
can some one tell me the pros and cons?
or if they regretted getting it done?
thanx
the_queen
10-05-2007, 14:36
Have a look through the "circumcision" section here on bubhub. There's lots of great information. There is no reason to circumcise a baby as a preventative measure. Circumcision does not prevent cancer, or AIDS, or UTI's, or masturbation. It is illegal to circumcise a baby girl, yet circumcising a baby boy removes the same kind of nerve-rich tissue. The foreskin is the male equivalent of the clitoral hood. I wouldn't remove my daughter's clitoral hood, and for the same reasons I wouldn't remove my son's foreskin.
SalTheGal
10-05-2007, 14:37
Just to let you know you won't get any positive feedback this way...........
If you are after stories from parents who are Pro Circumcision head here:
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=43422
Good luck in your decision.:)
Ashleigh<3
10-05-2007, 14:38
As everyones said, the circ section will give you ever answer you need lol
I'm getting tired of saying what I need to say. It's been said copious amounts of times.
:)
HaydensMummy
10-05-2007, 14:46
Just to let you know you won't get any positive feedback this way...........
If you are after stories from parents who are Pro Circumcision head here:
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=43422
Good luck in your decision.:)
i'm not necassarily for against i don't know about it. :o i feel a bit stupid.
i would have just read through the section instead of posting but didn't know it was here, i posted elswhere and it got moved sorry guys:o
also strange that u said i won't get anyone positive or pro circumsizing as there are more yes then no voter so far. please don't be scared to tell both sides of the story to me every one i would like to know!
HaydensMummy
10-05-2007, 15:00
Have a look through the "circumcision" section here on bubhub. There's lots of great information. There is no reason to circumcise a baby as a preventative measure. Circumcision does not prevent cancer, or AIDS, or UTI's, or masturbation. It is illegal to circumcise a baby girl, yet circumcising a baby boy removes the same kind of nerve-rich tissue. The foreskin is the male equivalent of the clitoral hood. I wouldn't remove my daughter's clitoral hood, and for the same reasons I wouldn't remove my son's foreskin.
very true, thanx i never though of it like that. i feel so silly not knowing anything :o
thanx for your help, was great, i appreciate it :)
Aquamarine
10-05-2007, 15:03
No way!
i'm not necassarily for against i don't know about it. :o i feel a bit stupid.
i would have just read through the section instead of posting but didn't know it was here, i posted elswhere and it got moved sorry guys:o
also strange that u said i won't get anyone positive or pro circumsizing as there are more yes then no voter so far. please don't be scared to tell both sides of the story to me every one i would like to know!
The poll is anonomys. But if you read the other threads you will find that pro circ's will not put their views or choice down because of reactions they receive.
We have had other polls on this in the past (these ones brought to you from the hub library):
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/search.php?searchid=3285214
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=31252&highlight=poll
In both, about 75% of ppl would not circumcise.
Please don't feel silly because you don't know much about it. It isn't the kind of thing that gets talked about much at all. But we are here to share information and ideas - so ask away.:D
Cheers
ButterflyMama
10-05-2007, 15:09
Nope. ***accusatory text removed by moderator***
Milliner
10-05-2007, 15:11
No Way!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Duchessa
10-05-2007, 15:11
^ what she said
SamanthaJane
10-05-2007, 15:14
I personally wouldn't do it if i had a son basically because i think that all body parts are there for a reason. I would however be agreed to it for medical reasons if absoloutley necessary.
You just need to make an informed choice, one that you are happy with. Whether it be cirumcision or not, just make sure you've made the right decision for yourself :)
Mister Noodle
10-05-2007, 15:34
I'm a male, and I'd rather lose a finger than my foreskin.
It provides protection for the glans, keeping it soft and sensitive.
It provides a large amount of sexual sensation, in and of itself.
It provides a frictionless gliding mechanism - more effective than a pint of astroglide, and without the mess (and doesn't dry out, either)
And it's healthy, normal tissue. Part of me. Taking it away would be a terrible violation.
The links to penile cancer are old, outdated and do not take into account cultural hygiene practices. Anyone who actually washes on a regular basis is not affected.
Hygiene is not a problem - cleaning an intact penis takes about two seconds in the shower - anyone not spending that long *anyway* has serious issues regardless.
There's no good reason to do it, but there's especially no good reason it would have to be done in infancy. If when they're adult they want it done, they can get it done - and they can even choose exactly how. If you do it now, you take away that choice.
Given that only a couple of percent of males ever choose to be circumcised as adults, there's a 98% certainty right there that not circumcising is in line with your child's future wishes.
Also, infant penises are *tiny*, leaving vastly less room for error. A quarter of a millimetre difference now could be half a centimetre as an adult. If someone were messing with your clitoral hood (the equivalent structure in females), would you want that much room for error?
It's your son's penis. It should be his choice.
OscarTheGrouch
10-05-2007, 15:40
I have a hubby who is circ'ed and prefers the fact that he is, but he was against getting our 2 sons done as they would be in the minority these days. As for me, I come from an era where most boys were done and do prefer it, however I need to get up with the times so to speak.;) Most of my friends who have boys have had them circ'ed and have had absolutely no regrets in their decision.:thumbsup:
FourAngelKisses
10-05-2007, 15:41
Hell no!! Not letting anyone near my boys winkies with a knife. As long as they keep them clean, there is no need to cut them off.
kristi001
10-05-2007, 15:47
:yes:
:yes: And dont regret it one bit and would do it again if i had another son!! Everyone has the right to their own opinion :yes:
Mummy2Noah
10-05-2007, 16:56
:yes:
My husband is not cirumcised. Nor are my 3 sons.
My husband has never had any problems with infections. He has never had any STD's. My 3 boys have never had any problems with their foreskins either.
I chose not to and do not regret my decision.
HaydensMummy
10-05-2007, 17:20
well i have looked at what everyone said and did a bit of research and am leaning towards not getting it done, but will have to talk to hubby about it as i haven't done so yet.
thanx for your help all!
luckymama
10-05-2007, 17:41
My DH is totally against it and has said no way. I dont know enough about it to argue with him, so i am happy to let him make the decision :yes:
GraceUnhearing
10-05-2007, 17:56
nope we are not
DF does have it done and he said hes not doing that to his little man
DF can give him that talk when hes a bit bigger
MotherNurture
11-05-2007, 01:49
i...heard they don't use anesthetic
Some doctors use anesthetic, some don't.
EMLA cream can be applied topically, but only numbs very superficially.
Injections of lidocaine feel like beestings.
Effectiveness varies widely; even when ansthetic is used, it's often not given enough time to take effects. Some doctors claim to use anesthetic but only give baby a sucrose (sugar-water) pacifier.
Circumcision is surgery.
Definately watch a video before you decide.
but then i read that it can lessen the chances of them getting cancer or other illnesses. 1 in 100 if not done or 1 in 1000 if done.
The American Cancer Society (ACS) states:
In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other factors that are now known to affect penile cancer risk.
...The current consensus of most experts is that circumcision should not be recommended as a prevention strategy for penile cancer.
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_4_2X_Can_penile_cancer_be_prevented_35.asp
The Canadian Paediatric Society (CPS) explains:
Of every 1,000 boys who are circumcised:
20 to 30 will have a surgical complication, such as too much bleeding or infection in the area.
2 to 3 will have a more serious complication that needs more treatment. Examples include having too much skin removed or more serious bleeding.
2 will be admitted to hospital for a urinary tract infection (UTI) before they are one year old.
About 10 babies may need to have the circumcision done again because of a poor result.
In rare cases, pain relief methods and medicines can cause side effects and complications. You should talk to your baby’s doctor about the possible risks.
Of every 1,000 boys who are not circumcised:
7 will be admitted to hospital for a UTI before they are one year old.
10 will have a circumcision later in life for medical reasons, such as a condition called phimosis. Phimosis is when the opening of the foreskin is scarred and narrow because of infections in the area that keep coming back. Older children who are circumcised may need a general anesthetic, and may have more complications than newborns.
Circumcision slightly lowers the risk of developing cancer of the penis in later life. However, this form of cancer is very rare. One of every one million men who are circumcised will develop cancer of the penis each year. By comparison, 3 of every one million men who are not circumcised will develop penile cancer each year.
http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm
A good link that explains the UTI issue:
Urinary Tract Infection Myth Revealed (http://www.infocirc.org/uti2.htm)
An excellent article on circumcision's most frequent complication, meatal stenosis:
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic2356.htm
And none of the above issues address the function of the foreskin or the inherent losses circumcision inflicts.
Watch a video that explains the anatomy and physiology involved, HERE (http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/). Scroll 2/3 of the way down under "Medical School Curriculum" to "The Prepuce". You can watch online or download; it's FREE.
It's much more than just a 'little piece of skin'. Copy and paste the following url into your browser and hit ENTER/RETURN to see, with education photographs of an adult male intact penis, just how much skin circumcision removes: foreskin.org/3zones-c.htm
Read a list of what's all lost, here: The Lost List (http://www.norm.org/lost.html) .
HTHS,
Jen
Ashleigh<3
11-05-2007, 01:54
Thanks for those links Jen.
I think if anyone's considering circing they should AT LEAST read them.
melfunction
11-05-2007, 02:01
Hell no! Nobody is going anywhere near my baby's genitals.
MotherNurture
11-05-2007, 02:08
You just need to make an informed choice, one that you are happy with. Whether it be cirumcision or not, just make sure you've made the right decision for yourself :)
:yes: And dont regret it one bit...
These kinds of statements are made frequently, but the reality is it doesn't matter whether we, as parents, are "happy" with the decision. It's not about making the best decision for "ourselves". It really doesn't matter if we feel regretful or not; we don't have to live with the results.
We are not the one's being operated on, nor are we the ones who have to live with the results of the genital reduction surgery. We are not the ones having healthy genital tissue excised. We are not the ones who will be strapped to a circumstraint. We are not the ones loosing nerves and sensitivity. We are not the ones who will have mucousal skin permanently externalized. It's not our clitoris that will dry and thicken. It's not our 'g-spot' (The male g-spot is the frenulum, which is damaged or removed during circumcision) irreversibly harmed or taken completely. We're not loosing the 'gliding mechanism' of normal, natural intercourse that prevents sex from being excessively abrasive.
It's not our loss.
CONCLUSIONS
The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.
Morris L. Sorrells, James L. Snyder, Mark D. Reiss, Christopher Eden, Marilyn F. Milos, Norma Wilcox, Robert S. Van Howe (2007)
Fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis
BJU International 99 (4), 864–869.
doi:10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x
British Journal of Urology: ABSTRACT (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x)
FULL TEXT available HERE (http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/2007-03-19pressrelease.pdf)
There really is no reason to make this decision for a child, in the absense of a pressing medical indication/deformity. It can wait.
It's his penis...
Shouldn't it be his decision?
Jen
pinkandblue
11-05-2007, 08:34
but then i read that it can lessen the chances of them getting cancer or other illnesses. 1 in 100 if not done or 1 in 1000 if done.
No we didnt get it done to our DS.
In regards to cancer:
Would you cut off your DDs breasts just incase she got breast cancer in the future? I dont think so.
Natalie
OscarTheGrouch
11-05-2007, 14:31
Great post princess niamh. A well written, unbiased, non insulting piece of advise.
Great post princess niamh. A well written, unbiased, non insulting piece of advise.
Aye that's our PN for you.:yes: :hugs:
Mister Noodle
11-05-2007, 15:17
can I just ask a question, and I am very non biased in this situation, but would a boy (either done or not) feel like the odd one out when it is completely normal for them, I mean, they have grow up with it all their lives. And is it really a big issue to a man? I mean, would a man sue his parent or loose love for them, because they made a decision for him at birth?
Not sure if that makes sence
For a great number of people, it's a huge issue.
Google for "foreskin restoration".
can I just ask a question, and I am very non biased in this situation, but would a boy (either done or not) feel like the odd one out when it is completely normal for them, I mean, they have grow up with it all their lives. And is it really a big issue to a man? I mean, would a man sue his parent or loose love for them, because they made a decision for him at birth?
Not sure if that makes sence
My DH is not circumcised I have asked him if he wished he was. He said no. He has never felt that he should look like everyone else. He has no issues with being intact.
While we are on this topic what is the correct spelling of circumcision?
Mister Noodle
11-05-2007, 15:27
Exactly as you just spelled it.
circum meaning around, cision meaning cutting.
Think circumvent, circumnavigate / incision, incisors, scissors.
Thanks I see it sometimes with a Z instead of an S so thats where I get confused.
mumx3littlies
11-05-2007, 15:43
Hell no! Nobody is going anywhere near my baby's genitals.
God no! Not my boys either:(
FourAngelKisses
11-05-2007, 15:49
My DH is not circumcised I have asked him if he wished he was. He said no. He has never felt that he should look like everyone else. He has no issues with being intact.
Plus he wont ever know what everyone else looks like. I can't see a grown man asking to see someone elses winky to check if they are circ'd or not.
I won't and haven't done it. What's the point? Really.
To me it doesn't matter what age the person is. I would be most upset if my parents wanted one of those clitoral circumcisions performed on me tomorrow.:thumbsdown:
So I won't do that to my babies ever. ***text removed by moderator***
Mister Noodle
11-05-2007, 19:35
Well, we could pretend that it's butterflies and kittens and rainbows, and that it's just as good and valid a choice, just a matter of personal taste.
But d'you know, my conscience won't let me. I won't pretend it's okay. I won't pretend it's not horrifying, and I won't pretend that I don't feel strongly about it.
I've seen people complain that there isn't balanced discussion, that both views aren't promoted equally, that when pro-circ people make a point, they're drowned under a hundred different objections.
Well, duh.
The reason the pro-circs can't defend their position is because they have nothing to defend it with. They don't have any good arguments. They get smacked down, time and time again with hard evidence, useful information and valid arguments.
The only comeback they have is "my child, my choice", which nobody would accept for a second on any other child welfare issue.
It's not unfair to show up their position as utterly unsupportable. Trying to claim otherwise is like objecting in a court case that the prosecution has fingerprints, DNA, eye-witnesses, video, a money trail and your signature on damning documentation, whereas all you have is "I didn't do it" -- and so demanding that they toss out all their evidence to put you on an even footing.
Sorry, the world doesn't work that way.
If people come in here to research, they'll see solid evidence, valid arguments... and the knowledge that the majority of the population aren't merely opposed to it, but actually horrified.
All of which are relevant.
Mum&bubs
11-05-2007, 19:42
I don't have any sons and for some reason I doubt that I ever will so I'm really unsure how I feel about it. My best friend recently got her boy circumsized and it got me thinking at first I was like 'errm yuck' but then she began to talk to me about the pros of it and I guess I seen WHY she got it done. It really made me think. I think it's good to get as much information as you can before you do or don't get it done.
OscarTheGrouch
11-05-2007, 19:44
My question is, why do un-circumcised men carry on about circumcism? How do you know what it's like to be circumcised? My DH is circ'ed and has never had a problem with it, nor does he want his foreskin back. Why do people feel they need to stick their nose in to other peoples business? Concentrate on looking after your own children instead of sticking your beaks in to the way others raise there's. OK rant over!!!;)
Nope, we havent and wont :no:
Mum&bubs
11-05-2007, 19:47
My question is, why do un-circumcised men carry on about circumcism? How do you know what it's like to be circumcised? My DH is circ'ed and has never had a problem with it, nor does he want his foreskin back. Why do people feel they need to stick their nose in to other peoples business? Concentrate on looking after your own children instead of sticking your beaks in to the way others raise there's. OK rant over!!!;)
Thank you :yelclap: :yelclap:
SamanthaJane
11-05-2007, 19:50
My question is, why do un-circumcised men carry on about circumcism? How do you know what it's like to be circumcised? My DH is circ'ed and has never had a problem with it, nor does he want his foreskin back. Why do people feel they need to stick their nose in to other peoples business? Concentrate on looking after your own children instead of sticking your beaks in to the way others raise there's. OK rant over!!!;)
Another Thank You from me too!!! :yelclap: :yelclap:
benji's_mum
11-05-2007, 19:59
:no:...he was born with it, it stays...
I wouldn't want anything chopped off my body, I don't think it would be right of me to make that decision for him.
Mister Noodle
11-05-2007, 20:04
For the same reason that people 'stick their nose in' to sexual equality, racial equality, child labour, slavery, reproductive rights, religious equality, the death penalty...
We see the harm and disempowerment of the vulnerable by the strong. We see a callous disregard for human suffering and the right of self-determination. We see injustice, and we can NOT sit back and let it pass without comment.
Maybe you can.
I have cleaned several off topic and unhelpful posts out of this thread. Any further off topic posts and this thread will be closed.
This is a very polarising issue and we will never all agree. That doesn't mean that there must be judgment or personal attacks. If something offends you, report it to the moderators.
My question is, why do un-circumcised men carry on about circumcism? How do you know what it's like to be circumcised? My DH is circ'ed and has never had a problem with it, nor does he want his foreskin back. Why do people feel they need to stick their nose in to other peoples business? Concentrate on looking after your own children instead of sticking your beaks in to the way others raise there's. OK rant over!!!;)
I'm not cirumcised and i am not male. But i still feel the need to speak out appropriately.
I don't know what it is like to be circumcised and i hope it never happens to anyone in my family. And i say this seriously. I pray my parents don't turn around and say "She's my daughter and she will have a clitoral circumcision tomorrow" Omg.:barf:
I also don't know what it is like to have the end of my nose reshaped and reorganised so it fits better with what another person would like it to look like cosmetically. My parent scould have done the same to my head at birth. Unless i needed the surgery to live then no i dont think so.
Sure if my nose needed it for extreme medical reasons then i would reconsider. Same as my genitals.
I am 27 yrs old. My parents have no right now or in the past or in the future to tamper with my genitals...same goes for me to my kids.
jojojonsey
11-05-2007, 20:15
I will behave...
No. I have two sons and they will not be circumcised. I strongly believe that it should not be done.
*Sparkles*
11-05-2007, 20:16
I am opposed to circumcision so I won't give my consent to have it done. My DH is done and he wants our son to be done (but he has already lost that battle). However, he is concerned about how to clean the foreskin when bubs is older and how to teach him? I think this is a fair concern seeing as he has never had to deal with this himself.
So, my question is a bit off topic but can anyone advise what we need to teach our son and if there are any do's or don't when it comes to washing that area?
I would think that it's just common sense but I thought I would ask anyway.
Thanks.
the_queen
11-05-2007, 20:27
Wash it the same as a finger. Retracting the foreskin prematurely is akin to peeling back a fingernail from the nailbed, to clean underneath it - of course it will get infected if you do that. It is fused to the head of the penis, so retracting it will hurt and irritate the penis.
Foreskins naturally retract anywhere between age 3 and 12 (I think). No need to clean underneath until then. And even then, the normal "male fiddling" :D in the shower/bath is sufficient.
Mister Noodle
11-05-2007, 20:38
One thing:
When it does retract, teach them to retract to pee.
It means you get a thin, aimable stream of urine instead of... well, you've seen Ghostbusters, right?... and it means that no urine gets left behind under the foreskin - even less cleaning to worry about.
(depend how much of a 'turtleneck' they have, of course - if it doesn't reach the tip, this isn't important)
I was astounded to learn how many don't. :confused:
Thanks for the tip Mr Noodle. We have one that doesn't match his daddy so I don't know if he would have taught him that :thumbsup:
Thanks for the TIP, geddit? LOL
the_queen
11-05-2007, 20:49
I did not realise that either, thanks Noodle! :)
Buddha Bubbas
11-05-2007, 21:04
No I would not. I dont see any reason to do so.
I watched the link in another thread and it made me want to vomit. and i cried. :crying:
I have read through this entire thread and I am going to ask a question that I have asked previously in another thread but didn't get replied to.
Most of you know that my son is circumcised and the reasons for doing so. What's done is done and at the time I knew without a doubt I was doing what I thought was best for my son.
He was born with a very sizable difference in his left and right renal pelvis and the paed suggested that I look into circumcision because he had an 80% chance of suffering severe UTI's if he wasn't. My Doctor also agreed but said it was totally up to us but doesn't usually recommend anyone do this anymore except in cases like this.
There are other reasons that DH & I had and whether they are justifiable or not doesn't matter anymore.
Anyhoo
What I would like to know though is if your child had this would you have taken the chance and watched them suffer in pain until they could decide for themselves or would your views be changed?
daytime-tv-addict
11-05-2007, 22:09
I have read through this entire thread and I am going to ask a question that I have asked previously in another thread but didn't get replied to.
Most of you know that my son is circumcised and the reasons for doing so. What's done is done and at the time I knew without a doubt I was doing what I thought was best for my son.
He was born with a very sizable difference in his left and right renal pelvis and the paed suggested that I look into circumcision because he had an 80% chance of suffering severe UTI's if he wasn't. My Doctor also agreed but said it was totally up to us but doesn't usually recommend anyone do this anymore except in cases like this.
There are other reasons that DH & I had and whether they are justifiable or not doesn't matter anymore.
Anyhoo
What I would like to know though is if your child had this would you have taken the chance and watched them suffer in pain until they could decide for themselves or would your views be changed?
i was going to stay out of this thread until I read this and I am glad because we are possibly faced with the same situation and my husband who is not circed had to put up with it all his life and said that the UTI's were very painful and he does not want his son to have that. I am at odds with what to do, but given that there is a medical reason in our case, I do feel more justified to go ahead with it.
Mister Noodle
11-05-2007, 22:34
I don't think anyone here is opposed to circumcision on medical grounds, if it's the only workable option.
I treat it like any other amputation: if your quality of life is significantly increased by removing it, then so be it.
However, also like any other amputation, you search long and hard for second opinions alternatives first.
If there aren't any, then you do what needs to be done.
Phoenix's Mum
11-05-2007, 22:49
I am totally supportive of circumcision for medically proven reasons such as the one put forward by Trumpet. (I would get a second opinion and if they advise circumcision, I would be doing it too.)
I don't agree with it under any other circumstances. If circumcision is a personal choice I'd prefer it to be the choice of its rightful owner.
ShadyCharacter
11-05-2007, 23:01
Well, we could pretend that it's butterflies and kittens and rainbows, and that it's just as good and valid a choice, just a matter of personal taste.
But d'you know, my conscience won't let me. I won't pretend it's okay. I won't pretend it's not horrifying, and I won't pretend that I don't feel strongly about it.
I've seen people complain that there isn't balanced discussion, that both views aren't promoted equally, that when pro-circ people make a point, they're drowned under a hundred different objections.
Well, duh.
The reason the pro-circs can't defend their position is because they have nothing to defend it with. They don't have any good arguments. They get smacked down, time and time again with hard evidence, useful information and valid arguments.
The only comeback they have is "my child, my choice", which nobody would accept for a second on any other child welfare issue.
It's not unfair to show up their position as utterly unsupportable. Trying to claim otherwise is like objecting in a court case that the prosecution has fingerprints, DNA, eye-witnesses, video, a money trail and your signature on damning documentation, whereas all you have is "I didn't do it" -- and so demanding that they toss out all their evidence to put you on an even footing.
Sorry, the world doesn't work that way.
If people come in here to research, they'll see solid evidence, valid arguments... and the knowledge that the majority of the population aren't merely opposed to it, but actually horrified.
All of which are relevant.
I think thats the best post I have ever read on bubhub.
I would love to meet just ONE person who could make a rational and intelligent argument FOR circumcision, but in all my years of trying I only ever get "I don't have to justify myself to anyone" or "I don't want to say anything because people will pick on me".
Seriously. For something that is argued about so furiously and so often, I am still waiting to see any intelligent debate in favour of circumcision.
ShadyCharacter
11-05-2007, 23:03
My question is, why do un-circumcised men carry on about circumcism? How do you know what it's like to be circumcised? My DH is circ'ed and has never had a problem with it, nor does he want his foreskin back. Why do people feel they need to stick their nose in to other peoples business? Concentrate on looking after your own children instead of sticking your beaks in to the way others raise there's. OK rant over!!!;)Oh, and I just see it as a man (circumcised or not) who cares about the welfare of children, as we all do. I have breasts, but if people started routinely removing newborn girls breast tissue, I reckon I might have something to say about it too!
I am not anti-circ, just anti-routine-circ-of-newborns-for-no-reason.
I think most people feel this way.
MotherNurture
12-05-2007, 00:31
My understanding is the only real medical indications for circumcision are frostbite, cancer, or gangrene of the foreskin area.
Other than that, every 'reason' for circumcision is cultural, outdated, or solvable in some other less invasive, foreskin-preserving way.
The UTI issue falls into the outdated/myth category.
Jen
Mister Noodle
12-05-2007, 01:00
MN:
Clear out your PM box - but yes, go right ahead, any time. :)
Thankyou for your responses.
Although I don't see how it can bee seen as outdated or a myth as some in the medical field still support/recommend it. My paed has been a doctor for only ten years so I would assume his advice would be accurate and up to date.
But then in saying that if someone is predisposed to one way of thinking, no matter what their profession &/or other differing information out there it isn't going to make much difference then is it?
MotherNurture
12-05-2007, 09:55
Doctors do their best but they can't be experts on every aspect of health or even their specialty; thousands and thousands of new studies are published annually and many physicians graduated from medical school decades ago. That's why it's also important for parents to do their own research in accordance with their doctor's advice/recommendations.
Jen
RedPanda
12-05-2007, 09:57
I am not anti-circ, just anti-routine-circ-of-newborns-for-no-reason.
I think most people feel this way.
:yes: Me too Shed.
reAllytee
12-05-2007, 19:00
See i would love to know anyone on here who calls themselves pro-circ.
I have been labelled this only on here because people dont understand the true reason as to why we had DS done but hey if thats the way they wish to be so be it !
I just cant see how rudeness solves anything.
daytime-tv-addict
12-05-2007, 19:06
I also agree there is no need for rudeness! I also agree that people shouldn't be passing judgement when they don't know the full reason for why someone has chosen to circ. For some it is a very necessary medical reason, for others it is a religious belief and then there are others who are choosing circumcisions as a personal choice for other reasons altogether. I completely understand why there are people out there who are against it and that is valid, but please try to understand that circumcision does exist in this society and that for some parents it is a procedure that they feel is necessary for their child and however horrible some may feel about that, it is not going to help by being accusatory or judgemental before knowing the facts.
See i would love to know anyone on here who calls themselves pro-circ.
my definition of pro circ
Someone is pro-circ if they choose to, or wish to circumcise without an existing medical condition that calls for it, and not less invasive procedures.
As existing medical conditions that justify circumcision are very rare, the description of pro-circ is often apt.
Because at least 99% of anti-circs have no problem with medically justified circumcisions, in discussions about circumcision, we are generally talking about routine (not medical) circumcision.
pro-circ or anti-circ describes a position on the argument, and the argument is about non-medical circumcision.
Therefore the assumption of pro-circ is usually right.
Medically justified circumcisions are irrelevant to these discussions.
3boyzmum
17-05-2007, 22:33
We didn't get our boys done. Honestly I didn't even think about it until I was asked when jayjay was a couple of hours old and then I could get a word out before my husband screamed NO! He's a little bit against it:D
ImSethsMum
25-05-2007, 19:43
My son is done, and as Ive said in many Circ discussions it was for medical reasons (and valid ones) recommended by 2 different peads of an anti-circ attitude.
This is the first thread Ive read in which anti-circ people have said that they are ok with medical circ's.
Up until now Ive always felt totally crucified for my choice and have never recieved anything but negative comments.
Id like to thank those people, this is the first time I havent felt personally attacked.
I would just like to add that in future polls that there be a mention of "only in medically nessesary/recommended situations" so that those of us who have been in that situation dont get attacked and seen as pro-circ.
If my son was healthy and there was no reason/recommendation then he would be intact. Yet I am labelled as pro-circ because my son is done.
Ok my rant is over too.
Thanks for listening.
Pippi Longstocking
25-05-2007, 20:09
See i would love to know anyone on here who calls themselves pro-circ.
First page of this thread....
Just to let you know you won't get any positive feedback this way...........
If you are after stories from parents who are Pro Circumcision head here:
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=43422
In answer to the OP, absolutely no way would I have my sons circumcised. :no: It is not my penis, I do not have the right to alter it in any way. In the same way my boys own their penises, so too do they own the decision to circumcise or not. I am quite sure they choose not!
pookiesossige
25-05-2007, 20:09
My response to the OP is Over my DEAD BODY.
My husband's resonse is the same.
:thumbsup: yes. i had both of my sons done & do not regret it. son#2 has kidney reflux & doc said he is much less likely to get a urinary tract infection which is quite common in bubs who have kidney reflux & are not circumcised. people have their daughter's ears pierced for whatever reason, which hurts them for about as long as it hurts a baby boy to be circumcised. people who are against it aren't shy about telling you what they think!
keep an open mind. it's yours & your partner's decision. :fingerscrossed:
HouseOfBlues
25-05-2007, 21:50
No Way :no:
mysonroger
25-05-2007, 22:36
Well, we could pretend that it's butterflies and kittens and rainbows, and that it's just as good and valid a choice, just a matter of personal taste.
But d'you know, my conscience won't let me. I won't pretend it's okay. I won't pretend it's not horrifying, and I won't pretend that I don't feel strongly about it.
I've seen people complain that there isn't balanced discussion, that both views aren't promoted equally, that when pro-circ people make a point, they're drowned under a hundred different objections.
Well, duh.
The reason the pro-circs can't defend their position is because they have nothing to defend it with. They don't have any good arguments. They get smacked down, time and time again with hard evidence, useful information and valid arguments.
The only comeback they have is "my child, my choice", which nobody would accept for a second on any other child welfare issue.
It's not unfair to show up their position as utterly unsupportable. Trying to claim otherwise is like objecting in a court case that the prosecution has fingerprints, DNA, eye-witnesses, video, a money trail and your signature on damning documentation, whereas all you have is "I didn't do it" -- and so demanding that they toss out all their evidence to put you on an even footing.
Sorry, the world doesn't work that way.
If people come in here to research, they'll see solid evidence, valid arguments... and the knowledge that the majority of the population aren't merely opposed to it, but actually horrified.
All of which are relevant.
that's such a great post. i agree with the other poster who said it's possibly the best post i've ever seen on bubhub.
Mister Noodle
25-05-2007, 23:56
I dont think we should have to defend ourselves.
My argument is that he is mine and my partners son, not anyone elses, and as I have said somewhere else today it is unfortunant for you that you dont get a say in it.
More unfortunate for your son, I'd say. He's the one who's had bits of his genitals cut off.
And you've just gone back down the same old road: "my child, my choice".
Tell me, what other bits of your child do you have the right to cut off?
jess_live_die
25-05-2007, 23:57
no way
mysonroger
26-05-2007, 00:10
I dont think we should have to defend ourselves.
My argument is that he is mine and my partners son, not anyone elses, and as I have said somewhere else today it is unfortunant for you that you dont get a say in it.
if its your son, then why can't he make the choice? what is so urgent that he needs you to remove his foreskin so soon. would you not consider waiting until his older and then you can explain to him why its so important for you that he has no foreskin, and then he can take all that on board when he makes HIS decision??
mumx3littlies
26-05-2007, 06:44
that's such a great post. i agree with the other poster who said it's possibly the best post i've ever seen on bubhub.
:D wow yes what a great post. :confused: does anyone know the actual stats of how many boys are done compared to not done. As far as I can tell from searching its only around 2 in 10 boys that are circumcised nowdays. TBH I never even knew it was done anymore till I joined Bubhub. Not 1 parent that we know has a circumcised son so I had no idea this practice was still being done unless it was very medically necessary. (as in on older children who a physician had recommend it be done)
Pippi Longstocking
26-05-2007, 08:05
Not one single person I know has had a problem with having this procedure done, and has not regretted it, nore have any men I know (I have 6 brothers who are all done) have issues with it.
I think the issue here is that men rarely want to criticise their own doodles. They are usually trying to make out that their penis is at least 14 inches long with the girth of a sapling rather than allowing people to believe it's somehow inferior. Men can be funny about their weiners! It's sad really - I think that circumcision is perpetuated for that reason. That's why men use the ol' "I want my son to look like me" argument. If they don't want their sons to look like them, they'd be admitting that there was something wrong or missing from them and they couldn't do that so generation after generation is subjected to this unnecessary amputative surgery for the sake of men's silly pride.
Oh and I forgot to join in with the Noodley love fest in my last post...go Mister Noodle! :smiliedance: :D :yelclap:
I dont think we should have to defend ourselves.
My argument is that he is mine and my partners son, not anyone elses, and as I have said somewhere else today it is unfortunant for you that you dont get a say in it.
TJ you do not have to defend yourself, I know that from the reactions that are received from others to people who have circ'd their sons does sound harsh and attacking & I am guilty of feeling that way but now I have come to the conclusion that it is their opinion and as long as you are comfortable with the choice you have made then that's all that matters.
Mr Noodle is very informed on this subject and even though I don't always agree with what he has to say he is a fount of knowledge that could help someone that is after information on one side of an argument. And as I said before you don't have to agree with everything someone says but respect for other peoples' beliefs and opinions no matter how much you disagree is something I always try to have.
MN also tends to make it a little more of a challenge in the reading of such posts...Sometime I feel like I need to have a dictionary beside me to reference :D
Pobblebonk
26-05-2007, 08:26
Not one single person I know has had a problem with having this procedure done, and has not regretted it, nore have any men I know (I have 6 brothers who are all done) have issues with it.
Hi Tjfaz! How are you?
If you don't know one single person who has had a problem with their circumcision, then you're lucky. You really are.
I personally know two of my male friends (and one of those is a member of my ex's immediate family) who have had issues with their circs. One of them even had to have further corrective surgery on their penis at the age of 8 because the circ done on THEM was performed incorrectly... All they remember now is the horror.
And I also know HEAPS of OTHER males who have been circ'd, and CANNOT stand the fact that they were not given the choice, so I suppose that too consititues them having a problem with the procedure being done.
Please don't take my post as an attack on you, just trying to illustrate how lucky you are not to know anyone who has never had a problem, either physically or mentally.
Pippi Longstocking
26-05-2007, 08:53
I think we could all play tit for tat anecdotes all day but it won't prove anything. The medical data clearly indicates that routine infant circumcision is unnecessary.
I think we could all play tit for tat anecdotes all day but it won't prove anything. The medical data clearly indicates that routine infant circumcision is unnecessary.
Totally agree.
Mister Noodle
26-05-2007, 09:23
Well, yes, it will affect him. A chunk of his penis will be missing. Doesn't matter how early you do it, the result is the same.
I don't understand why this concept is so hard for people to grasp. Foreskins are an extremely valuable body part. They provide many useful benefits. Cutting them off denies those benefits to your child, and it will be all your fault.
And again I ask: what other healthy part of your child's body do you have the right to amputate, by virtue of being a parent?
I want an answer, please.
drbenroth
26-05-2007, 11:56
Noone speaks out on these forums who are for circumcision because of the **** we get.
a falsifying argument does not equate to "****".
you must surely realise how frustrating it is to debate with people who refuse to engage in rationality.
Some people circ, others dont. Its just a choice.
yes, but not YOUR choice
We dont push our pro circ opinion on anyone.
apart from your child, and with a knife.
If there is a thread on circ, it is usually all of the anti-circ views, not fair, because we are made to feel ashamed of our decisions,.
i can tell you now that you could NEVER make me ashamed of my opinion on routine circumcision. i am prepared, and happy to defend it, because it is considered and easily justifiable. Perhaps (/obviously) this is not the case for the pro stance.
I just do not understand why all are so worried about someone elses child. a stranger. Someone you know nothing about.
Do you think the people that do have their children circumsied have not thoroughly researched it?
when there is no medical need, why is amputation a reasonable thing to research, ?
name a body part, and i can give you a list of reasons as to why you should remove it.
"research" is usually a method for a parent to come up with an excuse to circumcise. The real underlying reasons for circumcision are pretty silly. i.e cosmetics, social reasons etc.
i am worried about someone elses child, because i believe in things called human rights. Perhaps you don't, and that is where our views diverge.
1. bodily integrity is a human right.
2. routine circumcision violates this right.
these 2 statements pretty much sum up my entire argument against circumcision.
there simply is no argument that, can justify routine circumcision, apart from those which are not constrained by those pesky rules of logic.
Mister Noodle
26-05-2007, 12:32
Nicely done.
mysonroger
26-05-2007, 12:55
Because I can get it done early while i believe it will never effect him, he wont remember, and he will be the same as 99% of his friends (that we know) and family. I am his parent, I am able to make decisions for him, while he cant.
Not one single person I know has had a problem with having this procedure done, and has not regretted it, nore have any men I know (I have 6 brothers who are all done) have issues with it.
if circumcision is not that bad then why would you worry about the effect or whether he remembered or not?? if you left your son to make his own choice, and he decided to have a circ, i'm sure they would give him plenty of pain medication and access to pain killers so that it could be as pleasant as a circumcision could be.....so raising the point about having issues and memory of it , i feel , is not a great point to be making.
how do you know who he's friends are going to be when he gets to the age when he might go to show his mates his doodle? i have no clue who my children will associate with. of course, one part of their socialising will be hanging out with their cousins, like i did. but never in my life, ever ever ever, did i sit around with my cousins and aunts and uncles showing them my genitalia so i could see if it looked the same as theirs. actually, maybe you could draw a comparison. all my relatives are blonde or ginger - except us - we're the dark haired olive skinned ones , and do you know what, it never occurred to me that we were any different until my cousin bought it up the other day - when she made a comment about how good looking one of my brothers was (or used to be :laughing: ). i guess i just focussed on playing with my cousins and not on comparing how different i was to them.
you are his parent , yes, but you are making a decision for you....not your son. imagine if he knew what you were about to do to him . do you think you could be taking advantage of your son. that you have issues about foreskins that you haven't dealt with, and now you are forcing your issues onto your son?? that's just a thought. only asking because i don't understand the mind of routine pro-circs, and maybe you could enlighten me.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.9 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.