Materials to support the investigation and decision making

[Soyuz]

Hi All,

We have decided that we will have it done for our baby. I belive in the scientific facts along with my religious tradition. But I am suggesting this thread to provide whatever resource (scienttific/medical journal, paper/internet article etc) you know of opposing or supporting this issue. This will be helpfull for the ones who are "investigating" instead we fight our own personal war (please note that "I am ANTI ..." cannot be a good enough reason for others making such a critical decision. So better speak fatcs (anti / pro) or use your time elsewhere.

Here goes mine ....


http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Circumcision_surgical_procedures?OpenDocument


http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Expert-says-circumcision-makes-sex-safer/2005/02/15/1108230001471.html

[Soyuz]

Another site - http://www.circinfo.net/

And above all I also suggest to be defensive. Please search google with 4 important keywords - "risk harm damage circumcision" and do some reading yourself at the first place. Then go ahead and read tthe advantages.

[JanetF]

If you look at previous threads here you'll see a vast list of resources both pro- and anti-. I can't see how your contribution is different. Maybe you should add anything you don't see but would like to, to the already existing lists?
:)

[Chickadee]

The thread Janet was talking about might not have come up on your search as it's a bit older than the 30day default list that is shown.

You will find lots of info and links both for and against circumcision on this thread: Loads of info on circ (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=4159)

Unfortunately, like most discussions about circumcision, it turned into a bit of a nasty fight and the thread was closed so you won't be able to add to it.

[the_queen]

We looked at a few different sites, but I thought www.cirp.orgwas the best. The page that had the most effect on me was http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/

Another one is http://www.intact.ca/, which contains a video of a circumcision taking place.

[andrewJ]

One fact on circinfo.net stands out, as an example (of hundreds), as to why i think that site is laughable


he states that circumcising 2,000,000 boys would prevent 2000 penile cancers.

Anybody who claims that 1. circumcision PREVENTS penile cancer
2. the rate of penile cancer for intact men is 1 in 1000

really should not be taken seriously in my opinion.


the scales at the bottom of his page was a nice touch.....completely meaningless, but very nice.



the betterhealth link seems pretty balanced. I don't see how it would convince anyone that circumcision is a good idea.
Besides, the debate isnt really whether or not circumcised is better, because your son can decide that for himself.
The issue I have with this, is that whether or not we are going to allow our sons to decide for themselves.

to me, the medical evidence is clearly on the side of "don't do it" .
If that is true, there is no harm in letting your son decide for himself.


a pro circ, may be able to, at best, infer that the medical evidence is balanced and therefore it doesnt matter either way.
If that is true, then there is no harm in letting your son decide for himself.

(just as your parents did for you, unless you were born with the terrible disease maleness, which of course require immediate surgical correction)

[moonblossom]

I looked at the links, I cried and am SO happy i never did this to my sons. If my reaction is based on emotion, so be it. My instincts tell me to protect my children, not inflict serious pain, emotional and physicaL on them.

If my opinion upsets anyone on this subject, TOO BAD.L

[wattle]

I think I'm having deja vu.

Haven't we all been down this road before? Apologies to those who are new, but this subject has created a great deal of controversy in the past.

Please remember it is an emotional issue and tread carefully. Perhaps we could all just agree to disagree?

[andrewJ]

the reason we can't agree to disagree is because we aren't arguing about what is better, which really is a personal opinion, we are arguing about whether or not we have the right to do this to someone else based on our own personal opinion.

[moonblossom]

Just one more thing, if its done on religious grounds and God made us perfect, then why cut something off hes made? Its like saying to him "You havent done a good enough job so were correcting it" hmmmmm

[andrewJ]

leviticus commands circumcision. Through circumcision, every jewish male actually signs the contract (covenant) with God in his own blood.

There does exist a genuine religious conviction that circumcision is required by God.
That i cannot argue against, nor would I want to.

However, i believe that religion is used as an excuse sometimes, so that the parents can avoid being questioned about their decision.
Many jews circumcise out of habit and to simply be accepted into their jewish society, which is entirely understandable, but this doesn't really make it a religious reason, it is a social reason.

There are'nt actually many Jews who accept Leviticus, or else they would have to kill their own children when they "curse" the parents.
Picking up sticks or doing any work on sabbath obviously deserves the death penalty.
Beating your slaves with sticks is a legal protected right. You are allowed to kill you slave, as long as he dies a slow death, I think you are safe as long as he lives for a few days after you hit him.

Wearing clothes of mixed fibres is an "abomination" etc etc etc.

Basically, IF it turns out that your son wanted to remain intact, you may have a hard time convincing him that you had a genuine religious reason to do it. There are jews that do accept Leviticus 100%, but they are few and far between.

circumcision, like I said before, in much of Judaism, has been seperated from any religious meaning, and is simply a matter of custom, and to use your word "tradition".

I know less about the tradition in Islam, but the same principles apply. islam is the religion of abraham.

[WeThree]

I think I'm having deja vu.



mmm, me too wattle, its making my head hurt! if anyone is looking for circ info, like some of the other girls said, there is lots of it in previous threads, opinions for and against, as well as lots of links. :)

[moonblossom]

I wonder what the child would say if HE had a voice...mmmmmm

[reAllytee]

I do believe it was more a case of people believing they were more christian or could get away with anything as long as they were circumcised & in the eyes of god this was great etc so St Paul was actually saying that it doesnt matter whether you are or you arent what matters if whether you are faithful or the likes.
But anyways i didnt think this was about people having their say in here more the pro's & con's for mums to be or new mums to be able to come look through when making a decision etc.
I dont think anyone should get into a religious arguement about it.
Yet again it looks like people cant remain mature & agree to disagree on these matters.

[andrewJ]

its good that parents get to see the pro side. But circinfo.net is simply wrong.

the original poster said that she "believed" the medical reasons that suggest circumcision.

I believe that circumcision is harmful, and the only medical justifications that exist are outdated.
Agreeing to disagree on this wouldn't make me "mature" as you put it. In my opinion, not explaining what i know would make me irresponsible.

[pegasus]

I think any "research" which only shows one side of an issue is not "research".

I therefore disagree with a lot of sites on the internet which pose themselves as "research based". I have looked at the sites which have been posted on this thread and believe that these fall into the category I have described, therefore cannot be taken seriously.

[reAllytee]

andrewj - This is fine i see no problem with people giving information that is relevant & gives facts for those seeking them.
What i meant when i said people remaining mature about it is not seeking to make digs either way as this gets nowhere & fast !
JohnC always handles himself well & i think everyone should take him as an example especially when it comes to this issue which always gets rather heated when there is no reason for that to happen.

[andrewJ]

I just really stuggle to understand why anyone would want to do this to their children, and it frustrates me.

I have looked for the pro side many times, but have never found anything at all that is convincing. Circinfo.net is one example of many sites that are completely wrong and completely bias.

So ignoring that one, so far in this thread we have http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Expert-says-circumcision-makes-sex-safer/2005/02/15/1108230001471.html

and
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Circumcision_surgical_procedures?OpenDocument

How can reading these convine anyone to circumcise their sons?


The betterhealth link, is at best neutral.
"Studies indicate that circumcision offers health benefits (just like removing ANY body part), although some researchers argue the benefits are too small to justify surgery."
the site also lists SOME risks.

theage.com link suggests that circumcision may reduce the risk of aids. This is not news to most of us I am sure. There are many sites saying the exact opposite, but even if we assume that it is true.
the link also says "Circumcision has a complication rate of up to 5 per cent. Possible consequences include infection, bleeding and damage to the penis. Serious complications such as bleeding, septicaemia and meningitis may occasionally cause death."

How can a controversial, theoretical, possible, slight decrease in the risk of HIV from remaining intact be worth the very real and undoubted 5% complication rate fom circumcision itself?

I do consider myself open minded, but I just can't understand, and I wish I could. I suppose what I am saying is that to agree to disagree, I would first have to understand the pro point of view...and well....i just don't.

[JohnC]

Another site - http://www.circinfo.net/

And above all I also suggest to be defensive. Please search google with 4 important keywords - "risk harm damage circumcision" and do some reading yourself at the first place. Then go ahead and read tthe advantages.

With due respect, I find it difficult to take this thread seriously when two of the three references given as sources of "information" are Roger Short and Brian Morris. The latter, in particular, is the most notorious and unreliable pro-circ campaigner in Australia. I have had occasion to discuss some of his "information" in previous posts, including Aborigines (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=88913#post88913) and Tight foreskin starts French Revolution (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=89013#post89013). Worth looking at, if only for a laugh.

In reply to questions about these people (Morris, Short and Russell), I also provided some relevant biographical details in The twisted trio (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=89376#post89376).

As I have noted before, any parent who wishes to be well-informed on this issue should probably start with the literature review and statement of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians:
http://www.racp.edu.au/hpu/paed/circumcision/print.htm

In addition, some attempt has been in the Infections (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=6692) thread, in particular, to provide detailed additional information on various aspects of circumcision without, as far as possible, heightening the atmosphere of controversy that often attends such discussion.

[xkwzit]

I don't think it sus.

It is possible to make a decision for your kids AND ALSO have respect for someone who holds to the opposite view. You respect them because of the way they conduct themselves, even when they disagree with you.

We all have life experience that we draw on to make our decisions, everyone's experiences are different, therefore it is natural that we all make different decisions.

Let's all respect each others' point of view, it doesn't have to coincide with our own.

Cheers

[reAllytee]

Dilly - Pretty much what xkwzit said is true. Im not pro circ nor am i against circ i believe its a parents decision to make based on information as well as their beliefs.
Yes ive had my son done but have you seen me on here saying people must have it done ? No thats right ive never said anything to the like because again it is each individual parents choice & whatever their decision is i respect it.
Just as i respect JohnC for being informative & unwilling to buy into attacking parents who have either made a choice to circ or are going to circ. He is against circ but doesnt choose to become nasty about it.
So because i happen to be mature about it all im sus hrmmm well i shall keep that in mind. :rolleyes:

[JohnC]

I am certainly not above having a spirited argument, it's just a question of picking one's targets. It is an unfortunate fact that discussions of circumcision can attract people who make false or deceptive posts in an attempt to sway people's opinions. Those who have been reading these threads for a while would perhaps remember ludicrous claims about "penial cancer" (sic), stories about boys crippled by their foreskins being carried into surgeries, and someone claiming to be a doctor making totally false statements about circ incidence in WA, to name just a few examples.

This thread was started by "Soyuz", who on Boxing day delivered her/himself of a couple of posts (out of a lifetime total of 3) that I think do qualify as genuinely suspect ...

We have decided that we will have it done for our baby. I belive in the scientific facts along with my religious tradition.
... failing to mention which "facts" and which "tradition" (as Dilly correctly noted), and then pointing readers to Roger Short and Brian Morris as some kind of authorities, while totally ignoring the many posts already in this forum.

Personally, I find it hard to avoid the conclusion that this is just a cynical attempt to manipulate the Bubhub community.

[OM]

I think I'm having deja vu.




DITTO :confused:

[JanetF]

Gotta love a thread started by an obvious troll* rofl.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Internet troll


In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory messages on the Internet, such as on online discussion forums, to disrupt discussion or to upset its participants. "Troll" can also mean the inflammatory message itself posted by a troll or be a verb meaning to post such messages. "Trolling" (the gerund) is also commonly used to describe the activity.

I diagnose "disruptive troll" for this one.

Disruptive trolls
Off topic messages: Those that are irrelevant to the focus of the forum.
Page widening: Filling up fields with large pictures or characters to make previous posts unreadable.
Offensive media: Annoying sound files or disturbing pictures in a message, or linking to shock sites that contain such media. Often these links are disguised as legitimate links.
Inflammatory messages, including racist comments.
Deliberately revealing the ending of a recent popular movie or book.
Bumping an old discussion, or rehashing a highly controversial past topic, particularly in smaller online communities.
Deliberate and repeated misspelling of other people's nicks in order to disturb or irritate them in a conversation.

[melfunction]

Gotta love a thread started by an obvious troll rofl.

You have a gift for words Janet....;)

[JanetF]

Why thank you ;) I thought I just had a talent for stating the bleeding obvious :p

[Chickadee]

Janet, please don't call other members names. Either edit your post or I will ask another moderator to do it for you.

Thanks.

[JanetF]

Troll isn't a term of abuse. It's an internationally accepted internet term for those who join websites purely to make trouble and this person clearly has done that. I never abuse anyone and I'm offended that you would tell me I had! A little perspective, please!

[Chickadee]

I was actually surprised by seeing it from you. I'm not up to speed on internationally accepted forum terms and even if the original poster is, to most of us it would be an insult and so not on. Please change it or provide an explanation (definition) in your post.

In the meantime, here is a link about internet "trolls" for the rest of us uneducated souls: http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm

[melfunction]

I wasn't aware of the term Troll as that meaning..Once again Janet, thanks for the edumacashun......

[JohnC]

Well, between Plato's Cave and the etiquette of international trollery, this thread has turned out to have some educative value after all :D

Might just add that in online circumcision forums there is a particular species of the genus Troll that often originates from such fetishist organisations as the Acorn Club and Circlist. While such activity is often merely amusing (since many forums are pretty incendiary anyway), it can be a real problem in bona fide parenting communities such as this where many people may not be aware of what is going on.