Reason for Reincarnation?

[SugarBlossom]

I had an epiphany while mowing the lawns this morning (?!):confused:

So, what if no-one went to heaven but we all came back here to earth to live our lives all over again, to give us the chance to right any mistakes we've made.....to wait for our Karma (what goes around comes around)

And for how many centuries have we been making the exact same mistakes/choices?

And just waiting for the lifetime to free us of everything?


What are your thoughts on reincarnation?? Or on my epiphany??

[reAllytee]

Yeah a lot of people say that we basically come back to "right" our "wrongs" which to a point i do believe.
But then again im just confused about a lot of it hehehe.
But i like hearing stories & experiences think its very interesting.
Although my partners ex work colleague was once talking about re-incarnation with a few others & she was saying that the reason people get horrible diseases like say cancer or aids is because they did something bad in their past life, so someone was like but what about children they still get terminal illnesses ?
She then came back with yeah well they were the worst offenders !!!!!!
My partner said he was so stunned he was speechless !!!!!
I got so angry when he told that story that i wanted to go to his work & say something to her but yeah heh he wasnt too keen about that !
Lucky he no longer works at that company !
But dont you just love how sometimes your doing the most mundane things & you start thinking the most amazing things !

[SugarBlossom]

heheh! KB
Too much grass and sun....? Maybe! lol:D

[Sammys mum]

I think that reincarnation is more about evolving than righting wrongs. Naturally i believe in free choice and all that goes with that..ie being the best that you can be..kindness to others...making the most of the life that you have. I think that as we open our hearts and deal with our issues we become more evolved in a sense and can be a much lighter human being actually finding our own purpose on the planet. I cant believe allyoo that your partners work colleague was so insensitive too..:confused: I do believe however that a lot of our choices can result in sickness and part of the way our soul can evolve is by having to deal with something challenging like sickness, death, relationship breakdown, birth.:)

Just my thoughts

[cosmic]

Everything Sammys mum said. ;)

[alicesmum]

Oooo goodie, another juicy topic! How much time can I waste chatting about this? Way too much!!! Here’s what I think about reincarnation and all that stuff.

To me, the real question isn't what happens to us when we die. The real question is what is "us"? In western culture, the conventional notion of the self is a "soul": some kind of permanent entity that either has always existed (has no cause) or was zapped into existence by god, who himself has always existed (i.e., has no cause). I reject the notion of anything happening without a cause, so reject the western notion of a soul. But that is not to say I believe in nihilism (i.e., when you’re dead you’re dead!).

Looking at ourselves in the present tense, we should ask, what part of me is the real "me"? We can identify ourselves as a collection of parts and chemicals, processes and memories. No one part is the real essence of me. Old molecules of "me" get broken down and replaced, new parts of "me" get added (especially around the hips and waistline!), yet somehow I imagine that I am the same "me" that I was 10 years ago.

This entity that imagines it exists is simply our consciousness. It is not a thing, but a process. And it is that which I believe forms the link between one life and the next. However, it’s important to realise that consciousness is not the same as memory: we lose almost all of our memories between one life and the next, but the consciousness is continuous. Consciousness continues because we keep doing stuff that has effects that we are conscious of experiencing.

An important reason for supposing rebirth is that the laws of Physics state that energy cannot be destroyed. Thought is energy. Feelings and sensations are energy. Therefore, these cannot be ‘destroyed’. The logical conclusion then is that individual energy pockets of thought, feeling and experience that comprise our individual consciousness cannot be destroyed. Therefore our consciousness is eternal. If our consciousness is eternal, it must still exist in some form or forms after death.

This is not easy stuff to explain. To do the job adequately requires a lifetime of study, which I have not had. I am aware that I have probably not done a very good job of explaining it, but hopefully gives a bit of an idea about how I understand it all.

For a very interesting read about God and reincarnation, see http://www.nellgavin.com/reincarnation.htm

Not saying I endorse (or understand!) everything she is saying, but it is heaps of food for thought! (Might need to print it out and read it over a few sittings if you’re interested…it’s long!)

Good thread!

[SugarBlossom]

Nice post alices mum!

I will point out now, that I do not beleive in "GOD" or "heaven" but beleive there is a higher being.

I've been thinking about the energy thing too.....energy just does not just dissapear.

It just gets infinately transferred from one vessel too another

round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round
round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round
round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round
round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round

anyway you get the idea! :p
So what happens to our ernergy?? where does it transfer too? Another us?

[JellyBean06]

Totally agree - basic laws of physics tell us that it is possible. I have always wondered whether our energy is reincarnated or melts into a giant Gaian energy melting pot (ie returns to the energy of the planet).

I also wonder at how/when the energy is imparted into the egg/sperm, if it already exists in a 'non molecular' sense and if reincarnation does occur how/when does a conscience decide/chose/lumped into a new carnation?

It makes me realise that we honestly have very little grasp on what really makes Nature tick. For me, I cannot fathom 'God' in a Christian sense but the idea of a weird life force/universal conscience is not totally unfathomable :)

[alicesmum]

i know people feel uncomfortable with the word 'God' as I used to, because of all the cultural and religious baggage that comes with it. i think some christians probably feel funny about using it sometimes too, basically because it is so over-used and has become fairly meaningless as a word (which happens when a word gets over-used and mis-used!!).

but everything you described, JellyBean06 and JazzPete_n_Codie, such as life force or universal consciousness I now call God because it's convenient. I don't use God in the traditional Christian sense of the word, as in a sky-daddy who dishes out rewards and punishments, plans a judgement day, heads one religion but not the others, etc etc. Such an idea of God seems ludicrous to me. To me, (and it's a bit Jedi Knight!!) God is the spirit of connection between all things; hence, all things are God and God is in all things. We experience "God" when we experience this interconnectedness between ourselves and the chair and another person and the ant and the sky and the tree. I don't, however, believe we can influence these things like Luke Skywalker did with his mind (hehehehe!!!). That idea is like alchemy which was proved to be false long ago! Anyway, understanding God in this way, to me anyway, leaves no need for a God-ordained morality. After all, if I am connected to you and you are me, and to the cow and the river and the tree, then harming these things harms myself. Why would you use your right hand to cut off your left hand??? The word Karma actually means action, suggesting that our actions (including thought action) result in consequences.

JazzPete_n_Codie - who knows what happens to our consciouness. Maybe it transfers whole into another conscious being, or maybe it scatters into various places after death. I will tell you my thoughts in another 10 years, after much more insight meditation and study!!! :) Actually, you would probably enjoy reading that link i posted above.

[JohnC]

I've been thinking about the energy thing too.....energy just does not just dissapear.
It just gets infinately transferred from one vessel too another


Totally agree - basic laws of physics tell us that it is possible. I have always wondered whether our energy is reincarnated or melts into a giant Gaian energy melting pot (ie returns to the energy of the planet).
I also wonder at how/when the energy is imparted into the egg/sperm, if it already exists in a 'non molecular' sense and if reincarnation does occur how/when does a conscience decide/chose/lumped into a new carnation?
We may be asking a bit much of physics here! The law of the conservation of energy tells us energy is never lost, just changes from one form to another, but any information it encodes is lost, which would include memories and consciousness in the case the chemical energies that power human metabolism. Views to the contrary (such is those in the link provided by alicesmum) invariably use words like "energy" as a metaphor, rather than anything a scientist would recognise.

This is why I think that if anything is to be made of concepts such as a soul (which you kinda need for reincarnation), it needs to be immaterial, ie outside the world of mass/energy that science works with.

The possilbe exception to the above statement involves some of the (metaphysical) implications of quantum mechanics, but I have to give that a little more thought before I try to post about it (otherwise I'll be ever more incomprehensible than usual :p )

[Ffrenchknickers]

(otherwise I'll be ever more incomprehensible than usual )

LOL! Hi John!! *waves* fancy seeing you here:D

Can I ask a question? For those who believe in reincarnation, do you believe that you keep being reincarnated forever and ever and that the world will go on forever, or do you believe that you eventually get it right and reach a final resting point/nirvana/heaven/whatever?

Serious q here:) Am genuinly interested. Is is Buddhism that teaches about Nirvana Alicesmum?

[JohnC]

Following me around, Katie :p ? Hi and *waves*

[Ffrenchknickers]

LOl! Of course:p:rolleyes:

[SugarBlossom]

Well I believe the soul must eventually get it right....or give up!! lol:p

[Jaileth]

The way I see it is that reincarnation is our chance to experience all things - the good, the bad, the ugly. It is also used (by us, or our soul, or whatever you wish to call it) to learn lessons.

One thing I don't believe is that 'you were bad in a past life, so your going to suffer now,' although I do believe in Karma. I believe that you have lessons to learn, or things that you need to experience - and your actions or reactions in regards to these things (and the more mundane things) are what Karma goes off - but it's in regards to this life - not the last one, or one that was 20 life-times ago.

I have also come to believe that the soul does eventually get it right. I think we've seen it happen in our life time too - look at Mother Treasa (sp?). Some people are so happy with the lives that they have lived (this one and all the rest) and have achieved all of the goals and lessons that they wanted/needed to learn, so as there is nothing left for them to do, they must assend. (well, that's what I'm hoping anyway ;) )

I hope this made sense - it's the first time I've really tried to sit down and explain it. I think there's a lot more to life than we realize - either that or we're an experiment in some gigantic alien kids test tube.

[Sammys mum]

PMSL at Jedi Knight Alicesmum..lol:D

Jo

[JellyBean06]

This is why I ask so many questions within myself about s*** like this - it clogs the brain! I honestly don't think we (humans) can possibly begin to understand the true depths and implications - neither do I believe that Science has answers for everything. Things like if objects have a beginning and end, where does our universe end? Are there parallel universes? Perhaps our 'spirits' come or go from there?

As for 'energy' - it can neither be destroyed nor created, so it still leaves my continuous question, much like the chicken and the egg. Even if energy does melt away into something else - who says memories etc just die? Memories are created via cell production in the Hippocampus - all pure energy to begin with, continued with energy from the mitochondrial, into memories - where did this all come from? Where does it all go? We don't even know for sure what mitochondrial is fully capable of, or the brain for that matter. :D

The best thing Science has to offer is methodology and knowledge but it too changes - what we perceived as hogwash even 10 years ago may have now been proven/disproven. :rolleyes:

The Jedi Knight philosophy is extremely Pagan - the actual correct name for this belief system is Animism (google it). It is the oldest known form of religion in the world. :)

[SugarBlossom]

heheh, Jellybean I just noticed your due date is the same as mine was...but this year.....but he came 5 days early:)

[Ffrenchknickers]

either that or we're an experiment in some gigantic alien kids test tube.
LOL:D I used to wonder the same thing..

[JellyBean06]

heheh, Jellybean I just noticed your due date is the same as mine was...but this year.....but he came 5 days early:)

Hehehehe - this is my first so I've heard that their often late...typical :D

[alicesmum]

Pagan hey? Hadn't thought of that. I always thought Lucas was ripping off a lot of zen and taoism in his Jedi religion. though taoism is quite pagan i think (....ahhhh, so much to learn, so little time!!!).

Katie, re nirvarna.....it is the most misunderstood term in Buddhism, especially by westerners, who often think the term means Heaven, or a Heaven on Earth, or perhaps a famous rock band!!!

Nirvana literally means 'extinguishing' or un-binding. The implication is that it is freedom from what ever binds you, from the burning passions of craving, desire, anger, jealousy, and ignorance. Once these are totally overcome, all karmic debts are settled. Buddhism is a practice more than a religion (as there is no thing to worship) with the aim of ridding the mind of attachment to these wordly passions and cravings. Once you are free of these attachments, you are "experiencing nirvana". it's hard to imagine a state where nothing annoys you, nothing gets you down, and where even death doesn't frighten you. but as we know, many human beings over history, not just "buddhists", have reached this state.

The Buddha refused to be drawn on what occurred then (he refused to make definitive statements about a lot of things! hence, his teachings are not incompatible with belief in god or heaven), but he did imply that what happened next was beyond words and without boundaries.

Hope that helps! :)

[Mumoffour]

:D If there is reincarnation i would like to come back as a kookaburra. That way i could poop on people i didnt like and then laugh myself silly!:) :)

what would other people choose to come back as?

[Jaileth]

A cat who lives ina good home. My IL's cat is pampered to the point where he almost gets spoon fed!!! :D

[JohnC]

The Jedi Knight philosophy is extremely Pagan - the actual correct name for this belief system is Animism (google it). It is the oldest known form of religion in the world.

Pagan hey? Hadn't thought of that. I always thought Lucas was ripping off a lot of zen and taoism in his Jedi religion. though taoism is quite pagan i think ...

A quick look on the Web shows everybody wants a piece of the Force, so perhaps it might be best to look at what Lucas (who after all invented it) has to say:

When I wrote the first Star Wars, I had to come up with a whole cosmology: What do people believe in? I had to do something that was relevant, something that imitated a belief system that has been around for thousands of years, and that most people on the planet, one way or another, have some kind of connection to. I didn't want to invent a religion. I wanted to try to explain in a different way the religions that have already existed. I wanted to express it all.
Having said that it is clear that in the pastiche Lucas created "the Force" owes more to taoism than anything else.

As for paganism, I personally do not think it is a particularly useful term, causing more confusion than clarity. So I agree with the summary (http://www.religioustolerance.org/paganism.htm) of the religous tolerance site that it either be carefully defined in advance or its meaning be clearly understood from the text's context.

[alicesmum]

Ahhh John! Informative and on-the-ball as ever! Thank you for that.

As you know, I am something of a materialist/naturalist myself, so, for the record, I don't "believe" in reincarnation/rebirth and cannot see a solid logical basis for it. Then again, i agree with Einstein that much of what is really important to us as humans cannot be understood with existing scientific knowledge. I entertain the idea of rebirth or reincarnation (different from one another, as reincarnation implies an eternal, substantial and independently-existing soul), but cannot rule out heaven or even nothing-ness following death. some may like to call me fickle and indecisive!!! I'd like to suggest the word "humble"....????!!!! :)

If I were to ever be convinced that the stream of consciousness transfers to another sentient being (i.e., rebirth), I don't think we'd have a choice. Having said that, i ask you ladies - while a cat's and a kookaburra's life seems nice, if you could choose, wouldn't you choose to be human again, born into auspicious circumstances where you could really help others? (am i just a kill-joy, philanthropic, bleeding-heart nerd....yes!!!) :p

[JohnC]

As for 'energy' - it can neither be destroyed nor created, so it still leaves my continuous question, much like the chicken and the egg. Even if energy does melt away into something else - who says memories etc just die? Memories are created via cell production in the Hippocampus - all pure energy to begin with, continued with energy from the mitochondrial, into memories - where did this all come from? Where does it all go? We don't even know for sure what mitochondrial is fully capable of, or the brain for that matter. :D

The best thing Science has to offer is methodology and knowledge but it too changes - what we perceived as hogwash even 10 years ago may have now been proven/disproven. :rolleyes:
My point about energy was that if one is going to cite scientific definitions in a discussion then you can't distort those definitions to serve your own purposes - that's just crank science (which is an apt description of the nell gavin link that alicesmum provided - sorry ;) ).

The biochemical pathways of cell metabolism are well understood, and do not involve the conversion of "pure energy". Crudely, glucose is transported by insulin to the mitochondria, which create ATP molecules used by virtually all cellular processes, including memory "production" and "usage" in neurons. These biochemical reactions are simply not relevant to the question of whether memory somehow "survives" brain death, let alone reincarnation.

For my money, it is almost impossible to get started on this discussion without having some workable definition of "consciousness", which I don't have :) My prejudices run to the Atman/Brahman distinction found in Vedic philosophy as the best of the known metaphysical approaches ...

[alicesmum]

that's just crank science (which is an apt description of the nell gavin link that alicesmum provided - sorry ;) )

agreed! (still thought she said some nice things about the commonalities among all religions and interesting that she, like others, suggests that the bible was literally implying physical rebirth when it talked about jesus' second coming and being born again etc).

so John.....you mentioned the Atman/Brahman distinction and Vedic Philosophy - so this is your bent. Forgive my naivety, but is this the basis of Yoga practices??? Are you into yoga? These things are all Hindu traditions yeh?

If so, can I ask you a question: drawing on that kind of philosophy, do you experience a "terrible emptiness within that makes each person's existence without purpose, importance, or uniqueness" ??? (I will tell you why I ask after you have answered!! Or perhaps you already know why I ask).

:)

[JohnC]

so John.....you mentioned the Atman/Brahman distinction and Vedic Philosophy - so this is your bent. Forgive my naivety, but is this the basis of Yoga practices??? Are you into yoga? These things are all Hindu traditions yeh?

Vedic philoshophy constitutes the origin of almost all Eastern conceptions of reincarnation, including Buddhism which actually started as a reform movement within Vedism (much as the Jesus movement began as a Jewish reform program). The Vedanta philosophy, which grew out of Vedism via the Upanishads, is much concerned with the issue of consciousness (both individual and universal). This focus is in stark contrast to the Judeo-Christian tradition, which is not interested in consciousness at all, being more preoccupied with ego (personality), particularly as it applies to obedience (to God's will - also ego). This is why when life-after-death finally emerges in Jewish thought it is so often in the form of bodily resurrection, an idea inherited by Christianity.

While many would see Vedanta as one of the forms of yoga, my interest is primarily in its metaphysical content, particularly as it applies to defining what it means to be conscious - and not just for people. Can't say that I've made much progress in this line of thought :o but as I said in my last post, this seems to be the logical (and historical) place to start in considering reincarnation.


If so, can I ask you a question: drawing on that kind of philosophy, do you experience a "terrible emptiness within that makes each person's existence without purpose, importance, or uniqueness" ??? (I will tell you why I ask after you have answered!! Or perhaps you already know why I ask).

No, but I can't see where your question is coming from - yet :p

[alicesmum]

Wow! thanks John. So much to learn!

I took the quote about the "terrible emptiness within that makes each person's existence without purpose, importance, or uniqueness" from a post by Nathan (Coopsntilly's hubby) who was refering to his "detest" for Hindu traditions and am still keenly interested to know if this is the experience of people who actually follow Hindu traditions! Cheeky I know, but a fair question I would think.

:p

[JohnC]

Nathan ... was refering to his "detest" for Hindu traditions

Was as perplexed by that post as you :confused: didn't go there then, not going there now :cool: but here's the link (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=97218#post97218) for those who want to know what the heck we're talking about ...

[alicesmum]

john -
a book for you as u r interested in reading about consciousness (perhaps you've read it?). it's called:

"The Spectrum of Consciousness" by Ken Wilber

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0835606953/104-8173925-6439130?v=glance&n=283155

I haven't read it, but have read "No Boundary : Eastern and Western Approaches to Personal Growth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570627436/ref=pd_sim_b_1/104-8173925-6439130?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance)" by him also, which is one of those life-changing reads if you're into this stuff.

:)

[SugarBlossom]

WOW! Been away from comp today....and I have so much reading to do.......but I think brain is going to overload and explode!

So way over head~atm anyways
lol ......damn baby brain!

Can I just ask, are any of you faithful to a particular religion? You don't have to answer, but I am just curious......

[alicesmum]

JazzPete_n_Codie
zen buddhism is my main 'prejudice'! :p
there's a 'temple' i go to on brisbane's west-side. very lovely folk! not much speak of rebirth/reincarnation, however other buddhist denominations (such as tibetan) do teach about it/emphasise it (i think).
rachel :D

[SugarBlossom]

I'm not a religious person by any means, but buddhism is the one I find myself drawn to....I can't find anything in it to disagree with :o

[Tea Lady]

I just have one question:

Where do you people get the time to READ so much stuff??!!!!! I can't keep up (and I'm a fast reader) BooooHooooooooo. It's driving me crazy! I have a really interesting book on different religions that I took on a week of holidays last week and I read maybe 10 pages (haven't moved past Hinduism yet, but at least I understood some of John's post!). Are you guys just more organised than me or what?

[SugarBlossom]

hehe, its beyond me too luwa! the precious little spare time i have these days i would rather spend catching up on z's! not reading:( unfortunatly

[alicesmum]

my reason: i am a super-nerd. always have been. (even my DH tells me so and he can't talk!)
rachel :p