View Full Version : Circumcision: yes or no.....
wannabemum
21-03-2007, 11:54
Hi ladies :wave: ,
We are due to have a little boy in July and I just wanted to hear some pros and cons for circumcision and what people generally think about it. We are not religious and dp hasnt had it done but I know some parents recommend it for safety concerns etc.
Any advice????? At this stage we wont have it done (as dp is not into the idea at all). However I am just interested in hearing some points of views. Thanks :)
we didnt get ds done, you should check out some of the thread in the circumcision section there is alot of info in there
It would be a very cold day in hell before i let anyone near my two sons penises with a knife.
There is no need to have it done in this day and age. If you go into the circumcision section there will be links there in some threads about it.
The wonderful MotherNurture will be in shortly (hopefully) to provide you with a wealth of information.
There are also video clips available online showing actual circumcision, just google it.
kristi001
21-03-2007, 12:00
:wave:
Just a suggesting...
I would just go into the Pro circumcision Threads and the anti-circumcision threads..
Ask there!
THen you can way it up yourself..
Posting here you are not going to get anything but anti- circumcision replys.. :o
wannabemum
21-03-2007, 12:03
Thanks ladies for letting me know about the threads, I will have a look. :)
This is dp's thoughts as well (It would be a very cold day in hell before i let anyone near my two sons penises with a knife.)
i dont agree with it and we will not be circumcising DS ever.
i agree with roopee. :yes:
the_queen
21-03-2007, 14:23
I can't imagine any sensible person having to even think about this issue. Hmmm, cut off a piece of my sons penis, vs not cut off a piece of my sons penis..... :detective: :barf:
melfunction
21-03-2007, 14:24
Any advice?????
Yes. If you find yourself heading towards cutting your son, think again.
The 'safety' argument is completely out-dated.
I couldn't do it (unless of course there was actually a medical reason, and not because of the potential for problems). It just seems too much to put a baby through and not my body, you know? JMO.
Ashleigh<3
21-03-2007, 14:34
The facts are: It's unnecessary.
Cutting off a perfectly healthy part of a males body is ridiculous.
Good on ya Gus!:)
CandyJane
21-03-2007, 15:19
Like the others have said, there is no credible evidence that there is any reason for routine circumcision. I will leave my kids tonsils in unless they need to be removed for medical reasons later in life, and as such, will also leave their foreskins in tact too :yes:
I too am unsure whether to do it or not if I have a boy....
On my side of the family the boys are not, on DH's side they are but neither really cares two hoots either way.
A friend of mine got her baby son recently done and argued her reasons why - mainly because she has seen her 2 cousins with lots of infections and one of them getting done at 7 years old so she argued it was better off doing it as a baby instead. Also she used to work in a nursing home and saw many many elderly patients with infections because they weren't able to clean themselves properly and the poor men were in pain.
Anyway they were her reasons...... the jury is still out with me on this one!
I would like to hear more from people who are pro-circ'd or have had their boys done with their reasons why though. I would hate to think if I had a boy and he suffered from constant infections that I could have prevented it somewhat.
~rambox~
21-03-2007, 15:33
I have had 3 of my 4 boys done I left the decision to there dads as I dont have a Pen!s
MotherNurture
22-03-2007, 02:15
You don't have to have a penis to research circumcision thoroughly and make a decision that is truly in his best interests. You don't have to have a penis to say, "No. This is painful. It's risky. It's unnecessary. It's harmful." You don't have to have a penis to accept, protect, and love your son just as he comes.
Circumcision is unnecessary; it's not recommended by any medical organization in the world (http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/). Not one. The reason is because the potential benefits don't outweigh the known risks.
Every routine infant circumcision (RIC) results in the permanent loss of healthy, functional tissue. A study just published in the British Journal of Urology confirmed that circumcision results in desensitization of the glans and removes the most sensitive parts of the penis.
Fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis (Abstract (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x)) (Complete PDF (http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/sorrells_2007.pdf))
In addition to the immediate surgical risks of the surgery, like excessive blood loss (hemorrhage), infection (google: necrotizing fasciitis circumcision), and death (http://www.cirp.org/library/death/), circumcision has other, frequent consequences:
Penile Adhesions (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10893633&dopt=Abstract) (Click for reference.)
When you circumcise your son, that decision also includes a 71% risk of adhesions during the first year of life. That's huge.
When babies are born, in most cases the foreskin is adhered (literally, fused) to the glans (head), and the tip/opening of the foreskin (preputial sphincter) is snug. Nature designed it this way so a stream of urine could flow out-giving the opening a regular, sterile flush-and foreign material is unlikely to get in. The foreskin and glans are 'glued' together by natural, beneficial adhesions called synechia so in young babies, there's no space between the foreskin and glans for anything to collect, thus, there's no reason to retract and clean. The synechia dissolve slowly, over time.
The AAP warns (http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZRNBDTODD&sub_cat=108), "But foreskin retraction should never be forced. Until separation occurs, do not try to pull the foreskin back — especially an infant's. Forcing the foreskin to retract before it is ready may severely harm the penis and cause pain, bleeding and tears in the skin."
Sounds unpleasant, doesn't it?
Unfortunately, forceful separation and retraction is the first step of every infant circumcision.
Doctors do this by clamping hemostats (http://www.dresslersdog.com/media/psi-hemostat.jpg) on to the opening of the foreskin, grasping them, and moving them away from eachother to stretch the foreskin opening unnaturally wide. (This undoubtedly causes microtears, but since the tissue is being removed, nobody cares.)
Then, a blunt probe or scissors is introduced between the glans & foreskin, tearing through all those little strands of tissue (natural adhesions-synechia) to forcibly separate the foreskin from the glans so it can be clamped and excised.
So, what does this have to do with penile adhesions after circumcision? Well, any remaining skin is raw on the inside edge. The entire glans is one big red, raw, weepy wound. These two structures were never meant to be surgically separated, and the body wants to heal and protect the glans (the primary job of the foreskin, if it weren't cut off). So, the remaining skin tends to want to reattach to the glans. Generous use of vasoline can help prevent adhesions, but they frequently form anyway, giving a poor cosmetic result. Skin bridges (google: skin bridges circumcision) can also form.
Most times, adhesions will separate in time, but often doctors still rip the skin back during an office visit sans anesthetic, often without even discussing it with the parent first. For many babies, adhesions reoccur, and they're subjected to painful "lysing" over and over again.
Meatal Stenosis (http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic2356.htm) (Click for reference.)
Background: Genital disorders are commonly encountered in the office of the primary care physician. Meatal stenosis is a relatively common acquired condition occurring in 9-10% of males who are circumcised. This disorder is characterized by an upward deflected, difficult-to-aim urinary stream and, occasionally, dysuria and urgent, frequent, and prolonged urination. Surgical meatotomy is curative.
Pathophysiology: After circumcision, a child who is not toilet trained persistently exposes the meatus to urine, resulting in inflammation (ammoniacal dermatitis) and mechanical trauma as the meatus rubs against a wet diaper. This causes the loss of the delicate epithelial lining of the distal urethra. This loss may result in adherence of the epithelial lining at the ventral side, leaving a pinpoint orifice at the tip of the glans. Because this condition is exceedingly rare in children who are not circumcised, circumcision is believed to be the most important causative factor of meatal stenosis.
Another hypothetical cause of this condition is ischemia due to damage to the frenular artery during circumcision, resulting in poor blood supply to the meatus and subsequent stenosis. In a prospective study of circumcised boys, Van Howe (2006) found meatal stenosis in 24 of 239 (7.29%) children older than 3 years, making meatal stenosis the most common complication of circumcision.
Frequency: Internationally: Incidence is 9-10% of males who are circumcised.
What it comes down to is this:
Circumcision of a healthy child is unnecessary; the foreskin is not a birth defect. In fact, if he were born without a foreskin he'd have a congenital defect called aposthia
Routine infant circumcision isn't recommended by any medical organization in the world.
Circumcision carries serious immediate and long-term risks.
RIC results in the permanent removal of normal, sensitive, protective, sexually functional tissue.
The chance that he'll ever require a circumcision for medical reasons is just 1% (http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm).
Leaving him intact is erring on the side of caution; once the foreskin's gone, it's gone forever. If he would prefer to have his whole, sensitive, functional penis he's SOL. If you leave him intact, and he desires to be circumcised he'll always have that option, and, unlike infant circumcision he can have a truly pain-free experience under general anesthesia.
HTHs,
Jen
PS. A great, informative Australian site on circumcision is CIRCINFO.ORG (http://www.circinfo.org/)
I totally agree about leaving it up to HIM (the baby concerned) when he is old enough to make an informed decision and get it done himself ie.an adult.
I couldn't or wouldn't even get my daughter's ears pierced without her consent (and her being old enough to make an INFORMED decision)!...bit OT.
Milliner
25-03-2007, 11:12
My 2 cents NO WAY don't do it!! There is simply no need.
~rambox~
25-03-2007, 11:14
No one can make this decission for you but i have 3 of my four boys done.
stellarella
25-03-2007, 11:38
I just wanted to hear some pros and cons for circumcision and what people generally think about it.
Pros?? What are the pros for circumcision?? I cant think of any :no: :thumbsdown:
DS was born perfect and that includes his perfect little foreskin, which will remain intact.:yes: :thumbsup:
TreeFrog
25-03-2007, 20:50
I think that if you are asking the question, because you are unsure and your partner says "no way", then you have the answer to your question.
If in doubt, then leave circumcision out. :)
MilkOnTap
25-03-2007, 20:54
Personally, if there was a history of penile infections in either my family or my husbands family I may consider circumcision. I've seen from friends and other on-line hubbers what their son's have gone through with infections and 'mature-age' circumcision, and its not nice at all.
That said, if there is no history of infection in the family I would definitely NOT have him circumcised.
I'm pregnant with a lil boy and he will remain intact :yes:
pookiesossige
25-03-2007, 22:22
Over my dead body will DH and I have any son of ours circumcised.
Something Jen said back there has really stuck with me... not one medial organisation in the world recommends routine infant circumcision. I have had this mentioned to me by our paediatrician, my ob, my GP and our CHN.
I am so happy to hear that the infant. circ. rate in this country is getting the lowest it's ever been- saw some figures on this- what was it last year? 10% of boys circ'ed soon after birth?? Something like that. I'd like to know for sure.
it's not going 'out of fashion', it's being discontinued due to it being pretty much unnessesary amputative surgery- excruciating, risky... the list goes on.
Mister Noodle
25-03-2007, 23:08
Not just risky - you end up with important bits of you missing, in one hundred percent of cases.
Imagine losing a body part. Imagine waking with part of you gone forever. That's standard nightmare material.
I can't imagine letting that happen to someone I cared about except as the absolute last resort to save their lives... let alone seeking it out.
Pippi Longstocking
26-03-2007, 07:22
Hi ladies :wave: ,
We are not religious and dp hasnt had it done but I know some parents recommend it for safety concerns etc.
For me, I reckon a fairly valid safety concern is allowing someone with a scalpel near my newborn's genitals :eek:
pookiesossige
26-03-2007, 11:11
How are you going, wannabemum?
I hope that your thread is giving you an idea of how people feel about this procedure.
In other threads on this topic, a small minority occasionally critisise these views, saying that they are not 'balanced'. I like it that no-one has done this here. I value these discussions on a public forum because they bring to light the reasons why the vast majority of parents find the practice of infant routine circumcision appaling. If it were the same amount of people saying 'go for it' as there are saying 'leave my perfect son alone' in this thread, it wouldn't be an realistic representation of how things are IRL at all. Hence why only a small minority of parents have part of their son's penis removed- most find this practice repulsive and cruel.
I think that it's great that you are here looking for views and opinions :thumbsup: and I wish you the best :hugs:
RazaMaJizza
08-04-2007, 09:46
My son was circumcised, and I don't see anything wrong with it. Its clean, and healthy that way. This is my opinion.
punkbaby
08-04-2007, 10:05
No way, hasnt affected my brothers or dh leaving it there, not ds....and after seeing what my freinds bub went thru with his willy and the infection he got from the shocking job the gp did, i wouldnt ever want to see a child go through that pain!
personal choice though really :)
OneBabyBoy
08-04-2007, 10:08
"for saftey reasons" is really old-fashioned.
It's a [emotive words removed] to do to someone who can't defend themselves. There is no reason to cut off a piece of your baby and put him through that pain.
Please decide against it :yes:
Can you just answer one question for me:
Would you have your daughter circumcised?
OscarTheGrouch
08-04-2007, 11:18
Can you just answer one question for me:
Would you have your daughter circumcised?
Female circumcism is illegal in this country so your question is irrelevant.
Disclaimer:;) Both my boys are intact and will not be circ'ed unless they themselves choose to do so.
Mister Noodle
08-04-2007, 12:17
So, if routine male circumcision became illegal in this country as well... would the question become relevant once more?
tyler's mum
08-04-2007, 12:27
I didnt have a boy, but if i did i would of got him done, for me i just thing its cleaner:o
people think its a cruel thing to do, maybe it is but for me i think it something that should be done..
pretty much every guy i know has had it done and they dont reamember how painful it was
MotherNurture
09-04-2007, 04:55
I didnt have a boy, but if i did i would of got him done, for me i just thing its cleaner:o
people think its a cruel thing to do, maybe it is but for me i think it something that should be done..
That's a lot of me me me for something that's done to a future autonomous man, don't you think?
You *think* it's cleaner, but have you researched with the medical organizations say? Do you understand the anatomy/mechanics of a natural penis? Can you name 3 functions of the foreskin? Have you thought about the issue from an evolutionary standpoint or given any thought to the many fleshy nooks and crannies that make up the female genitals? Are we "dirty", or do we manage to keep fresh and clean pretty easily with regular baths/showers?
Why do you think so many people consider it "cruel"? Have you read the details of how the procedure's performed? Viewed photos? Watched a video?
pretty much every guy i know has had it done and they dont reamember how painful it was
Children don't typically form conscious memories during the first few years of their lives...is that any reason not to care about how they experience the world during that time, when their brains are rapidly developing, trust is being built, and lifelong connections are being hardwired?
Why do we tell our children we love them, hold them close, give them lots of compassion, gentle touches, snuggles, warm comfort? They won't remember it anyway, will they?
When we hear a story on the news about some horrible abuse a young child has endured, does it break our hearts and turn our stomachs...or, do we think to ourselves, "No biggie. It's not like they'll remember it."
No...we all realize on some level our bodies, hearts, and souls DO remember both kindness and trauma.
Jen
I don't understand this whole 'it's cleaner thing' my husband is uncircumcised and his manhood is very clean. :yes:
Pippi Longstocking
09-04-2007, 07:33
I don't understand this whole 'it's cleaner thing' my husband is uncircumcised and his manhood is very clean. :yes:
Same here. For those worried about hygiene, I hear tell that we have a fantastic modern invention to prevent the penis from becoming dirty...
Soap. Combine this amazing product with water and tada! :wizard: Clean doodles all 'round.
I thought about it then decided No
the other day i watched day i watch a curcumcision on you tube and it was horrible the baby get no anithietic(sp?) and they just strap him into a brace type thing and cut:crying:, i couldnt watch it all it was horrible i would never do that to my children.
prideNJoy
09-04-2007, 21:28
I dont really buy into the whole cleanliness factor too, although im sure there are lot of young boys who don't always do the best job! Spose that's boys for you....
Anyway im hoping someone can help me with this one. Is there any truth to uncirced males causing females to have an increase in the chances of getting Cervical Cancer?
Im asking as this was one of the main reasons why my mother choose to circ my brothers when they were babies, this was the info they had at the time, she also said to me that within the Jewish community Cervical Cancer was almost non existent! (back then)
If anyone can point me in the right direction to some recent stats either for or against that would be much appreciated....
Sorry All, just realised i probably should have posted this elsewhere as my question doesnt really relate to the thread! Not sure how to move it?
Bewitched
09-04-2007, 21:45
Like the others have said, there is no credible evidence that there is any reason for routine circumcision. I will leave my kids tonsils in unless they need to be removed for medical reasons later in life, and as such, will also leave their foreskins in tact too :yes:
Yup, my thoughts too :)
SassyMummy
09-04-2007, 21:54
No WAY would I get it done.
I wouldn't dock the tail of a pet dog I'd buy, I wouldn't "circumsize" (remove the clitoris) my daughter, and I just can't understand why doing it to my son (if I had one) would be any different.
I like to believe there's a reason WHY we were built the way we are. Boys MUST have a foreskin for a REASON.
I'm sure the cleanliness argument must have made sense years and years ago when people hardly ever showered... but so long as you teach your son to wash himself properly, then he really should be fine.
Sometimes there are boys that will NEED to be circumsized for whatever reason, but that's different to getting it done for cosmetic, hygeine or any other reason.
I think the "so he looks like Dad" is a ridiculous reason. TBH, a penis looks like a penis. They're not so different that if I had only ever seen circumsized penises, I'd go "WHAT THE HELL IS THAT THING?" upon seeing an uncircumsized one.
My daughter doesn't have any pubic hair... I do. She doesn't have breasts. I do. I'm not about to give her breast implants so that hers "look like her Mums." IMO, that's just as ridiculous as circumsizing a boy to make his bits "like his Dads."
I think it must be a bit of an issue for some circumsized men though... they might want their sons done because to NOT get it done might seem like admitting their penis isn't "as good" as it could be. It's not true of course, but a father's insecurities are no reason to attack a babys penis with a scalpel.
If I had a son, and he wanted it done when he was older... then he could get it done. I think he'd be an idiot to get it done "just because" but that decision will be on his hands (he can make this decision when he's old enough to legally make it without my consent... not before).
A friend of mine got his done when he was 14. He wanted it circumsized because he thought it looked better. I think he was a foolish materialistic moron for doing it... but I liked that his mother left it up to him.
sara-jayne
02-05-2007, 22:53
That's a lot of me me me for something that's done to a future autonomous man, don't you think?
Children don't typically form conscious memories during the first few years of their lives...is that any reason not to care about how they experience the world during that time, when their brains are rapidly developing, trust is being built, and lifelong connections are being hardwired?
Jen
i am all for everyone expressing their opinion but this argument is very one sided. a think that no one has the right to judge any one elses decision and i for one will have my son circumsised if i have one.
yes it is a painful procedure (tho it is reccomended that you wait till your child is 6 months old and anastetic can be used) but do you then also not get your child immunised? my daughters break my heart when they get their needles but i still do it.
fair enough the pain isnt as intense but still.
i dont know the numbers but im guessing any son i had would have as much chance of getting heppatits or measels as he would to get an infection under his forskin but i still would get him immunised.
and as for complications that may arise from surgery, well there is always the chance that your baby will have a bad reaction to a vaccine, hell every time you feed your child a new food you risk an alergic reaction. life is full of risks, if you use a good doctor who knows what they are doing then it is a low risk.
and when it comes down to it, it is about me me me because i am going to do what i think is best for my child, i am responsible for this child and i need to decide if it is appropriate.
it would be good if i could look into the future and see that he is going to wish i hadnt had him cut but i cant. i have to decide.
and i for one know alot of men who really dont mind, grandpa got his sons cut, dad would have cut his sons and DP wants his sons cut. i think if anyone should have the deciding vote it should be the fathers
as for the argument that it reduces sexual pleasure, well personally my sons fuure sex life is the farthest thing from my mind, but if the boy in question never experences sex with a forskin he isnt going to feel that sex is less pleasurable with out one is he?
I don't understand this whole 'it's cleaner thing' my husband is uncircumcised and his manhood is very clean. :yes:
i get so annoyed by this comment....and i dont understand it either. ***text removed by moderator***.
you can be dirty whether you are circ'ed or not....its all to do with PERSONAL HYGIENE!!!!
when DP is home, i actually shower with him sometimes and it looks to me that it would take the same amount of washing whether he was circ'ed or not....not having a foreskin doesnt make you cleaner...
why dont us ladies that have labias just get them removed because it would be cleaner too :rolleyes:
***text removed by moderator***
Mister Noodle
03-05-2007, 00:01
Immunisation virtually never causes any kind of lasting harm. It barely ever even causes a fever or headache. The vast, huge majority of the time, it causes a small owie spot that's forgotten about a few minutes later.
Circumcision, on the other hand, causes permanent, irrevocable damage to the penis, every single time, completely apart from any pain at the time or during the healing process.
It replaces a functional, healthy, useful body part with a band of ugly scar tissue, it destroys the gliding mechanism, it destroys the glans' natural protection, and it destroys thousands of sensitive nerve endings. A normal, healthy, necessary part of your child is cut off and thrown in the bin. The risk of horrible complications are just a bonus, as it were. The majority of the harm is already done.
Even if your son got an infected foreskin (which is amazingly rare, just so you know) - you STILL wouldn't amputate as the first resort. Or the second. Or the third. This is not the dark ages - we do not treat infections with amputation. We have antibiotics, antiseptics, soap, dressings... circumcisions are no more indicated for an infected foreskin than amputation is indicated for an ingrown toenail.
The chances of any problems whatsoever are incredibly slim. The chances of a problem requiring surgery are utterly microscopic.
And there's STILL no need to second guess - if, in the end, everything got so far out of control that a circumcision became necessary - you can do it at the time. There's exactly zero advantage to 'getting in early'.
This is in contrast to vaccination, (with its tiny risk of harm, rather than one hundred percent incidence), where you don't get a second chance. Once you have hep B, or measles, or any of the other diseases that are immunised against - it's too late, the disease is already in their system and there's nothing you can do to keep your child out of suffering and danger.
Again, just like an ingrown toenail. You don't cut off the toe to forestall the possibility ever occurring. If a problem crops up, you deal with it at the time. And if it ever goes so far south that you need to amputate the toe - THAT is when you amputate, and you're no worse off than you would have been.
You can look into the future - how many intact males ever go on to get circumcised because they want to? One, maybe two percent at the most. That translates to at least a 98% certainty that circumcision is NOT what your son would want.
Why CAN'T you leave it for him to decide? Why this awful rush to get it done before he has a say in the matter?
I don' t see what your family history has to do with it, frankly. So, a lot of people in your family historically thought it was a good idea. What, you don't have your own opinions?
And I don't see why either parent has the right to do this to their child. Would either you or your partner have the right to get your son's genitals pierced as a baby? What about a sub-incision? (google it) What about getting his tongue split, as is fashionable at the moment? Is that your right to choose for him?
As for your [removed by mod] for his future sex life - I can only say I'm appalled. Would you say the same thing of your daughter, if someone proposed damaging her sexual response as a baby?
One of my friends was born with no sense of smell. He doesn't know or understand what he's missing, so he doesn't miss it.
Does that make it okay to deprive an infant of theirs?
i am not totally 100% convinced that it would be ever needed, not even for a medical reason....
Mister Noodle
03-05-2007, 00:14
Meh, never rule anything out completely. There's all kinds of disaster situations that *can* crop up. They're just really, REALLY rare.
I would not [emotive text removed by moderator] change any part of my son OR daughter's body. Babies are born with everything they need. They need no 'alterations'...
I would not circumcise my DD's so I would never a son. If there was a medical NEED for one to be done... and it was 100% a need, I would research it all and make sure it was the only option before agreeing to it. Like any other surgery... I would be hesitant and make sure there was an absolute need for it before anyone touched my child.
RESEARCH! RESEARCH! RESEARCH!!!
I cannot stress that enough! With any procedure involving your child/baby/ feotus.... don't make any decision without ALL the information.
PunkyDiva
03-05-2007, 00:36
if you use a good doctor who knows what they are doing then it is a low risk.
Not sure where you got this idea, Doctors who perform it are few and far between these days and those that do, have you sign a legal waver (far more complex then say for a heart op or even an elective ceasar)because of the inherently high risk of complications both physical and emotional.
It is your right as a parent but one decision that does need very careful forethought to the child's well being and future.
Ashleigh<3
03-05-2007, 00:52
My partner is circed. He knows how much I'm against it but I don't hate him for it.
It's not his fault that back then his Mother was so out of it that the Doctors did what they pleased.
BTW- He bathes twice a day and his penis is still not my best friend. Infact, it's quite ugly.
:yes:
I just wish I could experience the real, natural manhood, the way our genetics were intended. *sigh*
Oh well, nothing can be done now. I love him for reasons that don't involve our private parts.
I can't say I don't think about it though.
*Note to self- this is exactly what I want to avoid for my future son's future wife*.
Ruby Slippers
03-05-2007, 00:53
No Circumcision
He will learn how to pull it back and wash it :D
(sorry TMI)
Pippi Longstocking
03-05-2007, 05:59
Point by point response to previous post
Damn you Noodleman, I wanted to do that! :shame: :D
Pippi Longstocking
03-05-2007, 07:48
It's a personal choice between the boy and his penis.
I have never once retracted either of my son's foreskins. That is unnecessary and invasive. Neither have ever had any infections at all.
The father of my sons is circ'd. He also has body piercings, tattoos and scars. My sons don't need to match him (in fact, the less they look like him the better :p )
A dirty doodle is a dirty doodle, circed or not.
Circumcision may offer men a false sense of security. Regardless of whether he has a foreskin or not, if he is having intercourse with a person with an STD, he is at great risk.
I disagree that it is your choice, I believe that the choice belongs to the owner of the penis being operated on.
For me its a no. It is unessessary unless a doctor advises for medical reasons.
GUV'NOR
:yelclap: i was afraid of saying something i would get in trouble for...as i was especially upset by the "statistics" regarding STD's....:banghead:
PunkyDiva
03-05-2007, 08:07
Circumcision was originally practised by Jews as part of their religeous belief. They would also use it as torture on uncircumcised enemy they captured before killing them.
The Europeans began doing it as a "fad" and somewhere along the line it became norm/traditional, this tradition deserves to stay in the dark ages.
With all the medical and statistical evidence we have now it is no longer an accepted or necessary practise so of course people become passionate when someone posts about having it done. Especially as it is unnecessary intervention/protection, you could take this line with so many things in life eh never allow your child in the sun, keep their hair in crew cut etc but of course that's just silly and irresponsible.
Yes you may have a long wait, not because so many people are doing it but because very few Doctors will do it.
You cannot pull back a males foreskin for quite a few years as you can cause damage so again the excuse of not wanting to do that is obsolete. I've never done this and my two boys have never had an issue with hygeine down there.
There was a study amoungst uncircumsised men in US that did show slightly higher chance of STD but this comes down to education about unprotected sex, and although these men were offered circumcision afterwards very few took that option. I'm not about to have my breasts/uterus removed because of the slight risk of cancer. May sound exaggerated but far better excuse then hygeine or others I have read.
If you have made the choice to have your son's done then why feel the need to justify it/defend yourself, you've done it thereby saying you thought it was the right choice.
Whereas people voicing their objections and justifiable reasons, not excuses based on tradition or incorrect information, may save one young man some emotional and physical pain now or later in life.
Best research is to read posts/forums from men who suffer post-circumcision syndrome.
Warning to keep it nice, and stick to the OP, or this thread will be closed.
the_queen
03-05-2007, 10:04
We are due to have a little boy in July and I just wanted to hear some pros and cons for circumcision and what people generally think about it. We are not religious and dp hasnt had it done but I know some parents recommend it for safety concerns etc.
Any advice????? At this stage we wont have it done (as dp is not into the idea at all). However I am just interested in hearing some points of views.
Any preventative reasons for circumcision are uninformed and mostly based on anecdotal evidence. I have also heard that removing breast tissue can completely prevent breast cancer, but I wouldn't have that procedure done to my infant daughter. Also, removal of toes prevents ingrown toenails, but I wouldn't have that procedure done to my newborn. See how silly anecdotal evidence is?
My advice would be that you don't have your son's penis altered.
PunkyDiva
03-05-2007, 10:04
www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetails.aspx?p=114&np=304&id=1793 (http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetails.aspx?p=114&np=304&id=1793)
This site would answer OP's questions and suggests other reading material.
Mummy2Noah
04-05-2007, 09:39
BTW- He bathes twice a day and his penis is still not my best friend. Infact, it's quite ugly.
:yes:
:laughing: :laughing: Ash you crack me up hun!!!!!!
cmd'smum
04-05-2007, 15:30
Same here. For those worried about hygiene, I hear tell that we have a fantastic modern invention to prevent the penis from becoming dirty...
Soap. Combine this amazing product with water and tada! :wizard: Clean doodles all 'round.
:laughing: totally agree :thumbsup:
mothernuture, you've summarised all the "against" reasons circ perfectly :thumbsup: I wouldn't EVER circ my son, if I had one, but if I was unsure then reading your posts would make me change my mind, at the least, it would make me think twice and do more research re circ before cicring my son.
allysophia
04-05-2007, 15:40
as for the argument that it reduces sexual pleasure, well personally my sons fuure sex life is the farthest thing from my mind, but if the boy in question never experences sex with a forskin he isnt going to feel that sex is less pleasurable with out one is he?
I enjoy sex. I enjoy sex with ALL my sexual organs - I wonder if your mum circ. you and later said "well, you never knew what it was like with it on anyway" how you'd feel.
I know this is a heated topic but I really wish people wouldn't jump on those mums who have made the decision to circ or those that merely even suggest it. And accusing mums who have had their sons done as cruel etc isn't very nice - this kind of procedure has been done for thousands of years and even recently up until the 70's was a routine procedure. It's hardly fair to say to mum's of that generation that they were ignorant and cruel to have gone ahead with the procedure - especially when it was done so routinely.
I am neither FOR nor AGAINST. I've heard both arguments and respect those mums who have had it done - it's their decision and I'm sure they did it in the best interest of their son - no mum intentionally goes out to harm or want to harm their own children.
Many times I myself have asked the question whether to or not and when I read these sorts of threads I don't feel like I'm actually getting a decent informative argument - in fact I feel like I'm getting shot down for even contemplating the idea.
9 out of 10 guys I know are cir'd themselves (routinely done in the 60's/70's - the ones that aren't seem to be born in the 80's) and whenever I ask for their opinion most really don't care either way. In fact they are less heated if at all than most of the mothers here on this thread - most wouldn't even blink an eyelid or agree/disagree if their wives/partners suggested they get their son done - very interesting I thought. Maybe because circ'd guys aren't as concerned about it as non circ'd guys? I dunno.....
All I know is that I'm still pondering on this one (I still get mixed opinions) but I know not to ask here because I just feel I get yelled at by total strangers here on this forum - touchy subject yes but no need to get all nasty at people who do or even contemplate about doing it.
hayleylea
04-05-2007, 16:15
I know this is a heated topic but I really wish people wouldn't jump on those mums who have made the decision to circ or those that merely even suggest it. And accusing mums who have had their sons done as cruel etc isn't very nice - this kind of procedure has been done for thousands of years and even recently up until the 70's was a routine procedure. It's hardly fair to say to mum's of that generation that they were ignorant and cruel to have gone ahead with the procedure - especially when it was done so routinely.
I am neither FOR nor AGAINST. I've heard both arguments and respect those mums who have had it done - it's their decision and I'm sure they did it in the best interest of their son - no mum intentionally goes out to harm or want to harm their own children.
Many times I myself have asked the question whether to or not and when I read these sorts of threads I don't feel like I'm actually getting a decent informative argument - in fact I feel like I'm getting shot down for even contemplating the idea.
9 out of 10 guys I know are cir'd themselves (routinely done in the 60's/70's - the ones that aren't seem to be born in the 80's) and whenever I ask for their opinion most really don't care either way. In fact they are less heated if at all than most of the mothers here on this thread - most wouldn't even blink an eyelid or agree/disagree if their wives/partners suggested they get their son done - very interesting I thought. Maybe because circ'd guys aren't as concerned about it as non circ'd guys? I dunno.....
All I know is that I'm still pondering on this one (I still get mixed opinions) but I know not to ask here because I just feel I get yelled at by total strangers here on this forum - touchy subject yes but no need to get all nasty at people who do or even contemplate about doing it.
Yep well Said Bigglet!!! :thumbsup:
the_queen
04-05-2007, 16:17
I guess that, as a mother, I feel so strongly about it because the subject is "Surgically Altering My Child's Genitalia".
sunnyflower
04-05-2007, 18:27
i get annoyed because i don't believe anyone has the right to allow a body part to be removed just because they are a parent unless the baby/child is in dire need of having their foresken removed due to medical reasons.
i wonder if there has ever been a study done to gauge the amount of young men who were left uncircumcised suddenly deciding yes i will have my foreskin cut off now..................i think that should really answer the question..........
hayleylea
04-05-2007, 18:52
You have a right to get annoyed and feel the way you do - whatever that may be. But when it comes down to the crunch..parents DO have the right to circumcise their children. So whether you agree with it or not until it becomes Illegal people will continue making THEIR decision.
My son is circumcised and im a great mother and love him more then this world. If people want to say im a bad mother for circumcising my son then so be it...i know im a a good mum and i made the decision i felt was best - and do i think in 18 years down the track ds will think I made the right decision? - :yes: !! He is brought up with love and he will know that i did what i thought was best for him.
Thats just my 2 cents anyway.. I dont expect people to agree with me..nor do i want arguments. I think there has been more then enough arguments and heated discussions on here about circumcision - most of them not even called for (on both parts).
As a perant we face many obstacles and decisions and stumble across so many different parenting styles etc etc etc. I just wonder if there will ever be a day that people can just respect other peoples decisions be that what it may!
I know i will probably cop millions of replies to this but seriously its just my opion..like it or not! :D
I have read the pro threads and the against threads....and we decided that it was a big no for our DS.
DH is circ'd...but just about had heart failure when I even broached the subject with him. He was very adament that DS would not be done - he has also done the reading and did not agree with the "it's cleaner", "less STD's" "to look like dad's" arguments that were being put forward from the pro camp.
There have been a lot of advances made in everything in the past 30-50 years or so, and medical procedures that were deemed necessary then, are no longer necessary. IMO, circumcision is one of these procedures.
That said - I will never condemn anyone who chooses (for non-medical reasons) to have their son circ'd...I just can't condone their actions either.
Good luck with your decision.
Mister Noodle
04-05-2007, 20:04
A legal right is not a moral right.
Just because there's no law against it, doesn't mean it's your choice to make.
Put it this way - if the law changed and it became illegal, would all the pro-circ crowd instantly change their mind?
I certainly wouldn't expect them to. The law does not define what is right.
And just as a legalistic attack on the custom would be meaningless, so too is a legalistic defense.
I maintain that we do NOT have the right - not because of the law, but because of all the other common ground we share. It would be unspeakably wrong to cut off any other part of your baby, and there's nothing about a foreskin that makes it any different.
SalTheGal
04-05-2007, 20:09
Well said Bigglet!!!!!!!!
Pippi Longstocking
04-05-2007, 20:20
Well said mister noodle!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hayleylea
04-05-2007, 20:41
No Mr Noodle i wouldnt expect the Pro-circumcision people to change their mind if it became illegal i was merely stating that at the moment it is legal so the parents are entittled to make their choice.
You may NOT think they/we have a right to circ - but the way i see it MY son MY right :D Ill do what I feel is right for my son and everyone else do whats right for theirs.
I dont want to get into a heated discussion about it. Its all been said and done on here before....The debate for and against circumcision is not new to the world, it has probably been going on since the operation was first introduced and it will go on for ever and ever and ever.
MotherNurture
05-05-2007, 10:12
You may NOT think they/we have a right to circ - but the way i see it MY son MY right :D
And the way I see it, children are not posessions nor are they slabs of clay to physically mold and carve as we see fit; they're human beings. If I don't have a moral right to trim up my daughter's labia or excise her clitoral hood (female prepuce), why does anyone have the moral right to strip a nonconsenting male child of his completely normal, standard, healthy, & functioning foreskin?
Jen
functioning?
what on earth does your partners magical multifunctional foreskin do?
Chickadee
11-05-2007, 11:42
As always in this section, please respect that opinions may differ. Be polite. Be nice. There is no need to be critical of each other.
Mister Noodle
11-05-2007, 11:57
You have some reading to do.
Apart from protective, emolient and immunological functions, it has a simple, mechanical function.
It's a toroidal linear bearing.
Take a soft, stretchy shirt with sleeves too long for you, about a hand-length beyond your fingertips.
Now put it on, and fold the cuffs down to fingertip level, but fold it inwards, not outwards - so there's nothing visible on the outside.
Now glue the end of the cuff around your watch strap.
Congratulations, you now have a working model of an intact penis.
Your hand is the glans, your arm is the shaft, and your sleeve is the skin - the part of the sleeve past your watch is the foreskin.
"Shoot your cuffs", to look at your watch. Your hand will poke out of your sleeve.
And here's the cool part: at no point does your hand slide across cloth. The sleeve rolls over your hand. The only sliding going on is in the inner layers; shirt on shirt.
Exactly the same thing happens with a penis inside a foreskin. The two inner surfaces of the skin slide against each other, with no friction whatsoever.
Pinch the skin on your elbow, and rub your fingertips together. Feel how oil-on-glass slick that is, with no sensation of friction whatsoever?
Same deal.
In the most basic, mechanical sense, that's its function.
Taking that away is simply horrible.
Hehe - i think poster Meegs is tongue in cheek - not being rude - it is a funny image...
There has been much debate on here true, about whos right it is to remove anything from their child - i said elsewhere that i thought God put it there - who am i to remove it. that being said if for any reason (and yes there is a large percentage of male children having constant infections, no matter how much they are bathed or how well they wash themselves) i saw my male child medically needing it done id do what is best healthwise.
I watched a medical show quite a whole ago on SBS - adult men who had and who had not been circumcised (yes, all the different shapes and sizes of both were shown) and out of all the men they interviewed there were one or 2 who wished they had not been circumcised - and were creating their own foreskins through a stretching method, one man who had been done as a baby and had erectile function problems and the rest were ambivalent - werent bothered either way. Im not going to make arguments for and against - the decision a family makes to have their son done is theirs - and should not be criticised for making this decision - just as those who choose not to shouldnt be criticised either. Telling a person to research it will help inform them but after reading the posts on here one cant assume parents ARENT researching - its why they are on here seeking information.
sunnyflower
11-05-2007, 12:06
if every baby boy comes complete with a foreskin,why are people cutting it off exactly?
if every baby boy comes complete with a foreskin,why are people cutting it off exactly?
In my opinion (as uneducated as people may like to think:rolleyes: ) certain cultural, religious and scientific ideals have always predicted this. In the case of health being a reason - unless infections on a large scale never happened - it wouldnt be removed, or the idea to have it removed would never have evolved should i say. Female circumcision i have always seen as a separate issue - i have never ever heard in my life it being done for health reasons - but i will not open that can of worms as i dont think it appropriate for this thread. You are right - if your born with it, why remove it?. People have their reasons.
You arent born with holes in your ears or navel either - but no one seems to be upset seeing a small baby with their ears done. Because it looks pretty doesnt it. Im not trying to start an argument - but it is something to ponder on. It may be a different part of the body - but does that make it any more right/wrong or natural?
sunnyflower
11-05-2007, 12:24
Actually DJF i do get upset when i see smal babies/small children with holes in their ears.I also don't think as a parent we have the right to punch holes in their ears to put earrings in just because it looks cute.i am basically against any parent altering any body part except for medical reasons........
Mister Noodle
11-05-2007, 12:29
Piercings on young children are something I find slightly dodgy - but at least they don't remove tissue or nerve endings or strip sensitive areas of protection, or destry complex, useful mechanisms.
The issue is consent. Adults can do whatever they like to their own bodies. By imposing this on children, you take away their right to choose.
MotherNurture
11-05-2007, 12:30
functioning?
what on earth does your partners magical multifunctional foreskin do?
Here's a list of what's lost when you have your son's foreskin amputated: The Lost List (http://www.norm.org/lost.html)
A video explaining the anatomy & physiology of the foreskin called, "The Prepuce" can be found HERE (http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/). Scroll 2/3 of the way down the page and click on the video link beneath the heading, "Medical School Curriculum".
Another great resource that explains just how much skin is removed using educational photos of an intact adult penis is foreskin.org/3zones-c.htm . Since it's graphic, you'll need to C&P the url into your web browser and hit enter.
HTHs,
Jen
jojojonsey
11-05-2007, 12:36
You arent born with holes in your ears or navel either - but no one seems to be upset seeing a small baby with their ears done. Because it looks pretty doesnt it. Im not trying to start an argument - but it is something to ponder on. It may be a different part of the body - but does that make it any more right/wrong or natural?
I despise seeing babies with their ears peirced. I think it is wrong - and I've said that in these threads before and likened it to circumcision - which i also consider wrong.
And what is with the constant "My Child My Choice" mantra of the modern parent? A child is not a possesion! I have yet to hear of ANY decent argument from anyone who is pro-circ and find that the decision to put their child through it is based on vanity, ignorance and some misheld sense of tradition.
MotherNurture
11-05-2007, 12:46
I agree with jojoonsey.
1.) Hurting a child by altering their healthy, normal body for cosmetic reasons is unethical...I don't care if it's pierced ears, a pierced belly button, or pierced nipples. I don't care if it's a tattoo or a branding. I don't care if it's tongue-splitting or permanent make-up. These are human beings, real living little people, future autonomous adults, not objects, not posessions.
2.) While I oppose doing all of the above things to children, circumcision is even more serious and detrimental because it actually irreversibly harms an organ by changing the way it functions. And, not just any organ but a child's primary sex organ.
Challenge for parents:
Start a new tradition; protect your son; respect his body; leave him just the way he comes---perfect, & whole.
Jen
Phyllis Stein
11-05-2007, 15:45
I'd just like to say thanks to MotherNurture & Mister Noodle especially, for the time they've taken to argue the case against circ so well.
My DH & I are TTC & if it's a boy, we know we'll be under pressure from certain family members to circ, despite us both having an instinctive & visceral opposition to it!!!! Reading this thread & one from a few months ago has given us such a comprehensive basis from which to explain our decision not to circ - probably more than I ever would have gained researching this myself. Thank you - you're invaluable!
cackleberry
18-05-2007, 14:06
We don't have our boys circumcised. The only reason why is that our obstetrician when pregnant with our first son advised us against it. He told us that it wasn't a common thing to get done anymore and he would feel left out in the locker rooms as he is gets older. Not sure how true this was/is, but we didn't want him to be the only boy circumcised. I think that it is pretty much 50/50 now, but again, not sure of this. I had to take two out of my four children to get their tongue tie snipped and that was bad enough, not sure how I would be if I had to get the boy's done for no reason.
My first son is circumcised..I was 16 when he was born and didnt know much about it..Dh is circumcised and it didnt even seem like an issue..just somthing everyone did..so I made the decision to have it done. There were no complications from it.though ds cried alot afterwards! With our last Ds Aidan, we did not have it done, and i will not have it done for any future sons I have either. In my opinion, now that I know alot more about it, there isnt a good enough reason to have it done..if they want it done they can do so when they are adults. I wish I would have made an informed decision the first time. Though I do not judge others decisions. It is a personal choice.
ImSethsMum
24-05-2007, 20:46
My son is circumcised, any furture sons probably will be too.
Most people here have said they dont agree with heathly children being 'altered'. I agree with that and if my son was healthy he would be intact.
Well my son was not healthy, like the men in his family he had a kidney condition detected during my pregnancy ultrasounds. So too did my sisters 2 sons (one of which was so serious he will be on medication for many many years). Both my sister and her husband and me and my partner, were advised (by different Pead's who were anti circ, to get the boys circ'd).
Now to me thats a definate MEDICAL reason and Im glad I did it. A UTI that could lead to a kidney infection in my son can very likely result in him needing a transplant due to failure. I wasnt taking that risk.
I spent most of my childhood years in a lot of pain from the same kidney problem, and during pregnancy nearly suffered complete kidney failure - if there was a proceedure my mother could have had done to me as a baby to prevent those issues in my life then I wished she would have.
I respect the anti-circ reasons - but I also think people who chose to circ need to be given respect as they too have done what they think is right for their child - whether people agree or not.
As for my son blaming me for lose of sexual function??? I think he will be glad he is alive to be having sex. Not to mention I was always taught that sex is the act of making love, so if your in love then the act should be amazing and special no matter whats there or not.
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