CC for a 13 month old - does it get easier?

[balham]

We have a 13 month old daughter, who has been a pretty good sleeper all her life - sleeping through the night from 6 weeks. However, we knew we were making a rod for our backs (and everyone kept pointing it out) as she always used to fall asleep during her last bottle - so she has never really settled herself. After three weeks of unsettled bedtimes - not falling asleep with her bottle, standing in her cot and screaming hysterically, trying to take her clothers off, more screaming and my husband eventually giving in and driving her around the block - we decided to give CC a go last night. We left her for 3 mintues, 5 minutes and then longer etc, and she finally fell asleep after about 40 minutes, and slept through the night as normal.

Does it get any easier? I worry as she just stands in her cot screaming and screaming. Will tonight be better? Do we have to stick to the plan now we have started? It broke my heart but I appreciate that she did eventually fall asleep. Any ideas much appreciated.

[Sarie]

It's not going to be easy and tonight may be just as bad as last night, but it does get better as you go along. Not everyone is for it, but it worked for both of my boys.
My hubby sits down with our older son and reads him a book before he goes to bed and we start telling him with around an hour to go that it's bed time soon (he's just starting to learn the time), he has lots of kisses and cuddles and he goes to bed with out complaint.

[HoopDeeDoo]

My son is 13 months old too. He's been a pretty good sleeper, but now he can stand and jump on the side of the cot bed times can be harder. I'm finding it really hard to let him cry lucky for us it doesn't happen very much. It will get better they learn that you aren't a push over eventually. I find the more i go in there the worse it is for Noah, he'll be winging and I'll go to check he's ok and when I leave the room he'll start screaming. :( So I just try and keep my distance, even peeking through the door can cause an outburst.
Good luck and you are doing the right thing, in the long run it'll be better for all of you :p

[balham]

Thanks for getting back to me. The crying isn't so bad, it's the screaming. May be I'm just being really soft as it doesn't seem to bother my husband too much. When I went back in, I kept the settling to a minimum - just lying her back down, patting her, telling her we loved her and saying goodnight - as me being in the room seemed to upset her. I guess she just thought she would be picked up and cuddled. The weather isn't helping I'm sure, as she was working herself up so much and getting rather hot. I have to say though, that she didn't seem to hold it against us this morning. How long does it usually take to see results?

[Sarie]

I know the screaming is horrid.
Seeing as you've only just started, I'd say within a week you should notice a difference. But you have to stick with it, if you cave - even once, you'll be right back at square one!

[HoopDeeDoo]

I've heard it usually takes about 6 days to change a routine with a baby/toddler.
You poor thing. I don't even pat him, I give him back his dummy, lye him back down, say goodnight, or it's time to sleep bubba and make as little eye contact as possible and leave the room. Maybe I'm a bit mean, but it seems the more sympathy I give the louder he gets. It's hard when he gets up as quickly as you lye him down :(

[balham]

That's exactly what she does - just stands straight back up and screams. It's 39 degrees in Sydney at the moment so I'm hoping it cools down tonight, otherwise it will be really difficult for her to sleep anyway. Do you know if it makes a difference if my husband or I settle her? I went to her last night, but thought my husband could do it tonight - as long as we were being consistent on any one evening. Fingers crossed that she screams for less than 40 minutes tonight!

[Sarie]

I don't think it really matters which one of you does it so long as your consistant. If one of you is softer when you go in to settle, she could play on that.
It's tough but you'll get through it :o

[HoopDeeDoo]

Thats so true about one of you being softer. Noah knows that during the day on a saturday when I'm at work if he cries enough daddy will get him back up. :) I'm not concerned much with this cause it's more important that he sleeps at night.
The key is being strict with it. Can you put a fan in her room while you're still awake, and then turn it off before you go to bed? Not pionted at her but just to get the air circulating, or leave the window open?

[balham]

Well, we went for it again last night, despite the heat, and it took about the same amount of time. However, the cry was completely different - more of a resigned cry, rather than the frantic screaming of the night before. Also, she probably would have been asleep after about 20 minutes if my husband hadn't checked on her. She was all quiet and settled so he thought she was asleep and popped in to check. She wasn't quite asleep so when she saw him she stood up, ran towards him and banged her head on the side of the cot! She didn't hurt herself, but it kind of put us back to square one. Am very hopeful for tonight as she seems to be learning. We both work full-time and she is in family day care. Her day care worked said she was as good as gold yesterday, and she is a great believer in CC...fingers crossed! My only other query is that we were about to drop her final bottle and give her milk in a cup before she goes to bed (she has all her drinks from cups during the day now). Do you think that would be too much for her to handle, or would it be best to remove the bottle now so we attack two issues at the same time?

[cosmic]

Back in the 60's, they did some experiments with dogs. They had 2 lots of dogs. The first lot they put into a box where their feet got electric shocks but there was a button they could push with their nose to stop the shocks. The 2nd lot also got shocks, but no matter what they did with the button the shocks kept happening. The first lot of dogs learned pretty quickly how to stop the shocks and so they did. The 2nd lot of dogs eventually gave up and lay in a corner of the box whimpering because they couldn't do anything about the shocks.

Then they put all the dogs into some other boxes which they could easily jump out of. Then they shocked their feet again. The first lot of dogs who had learned they could stop the shocks, very quickly jumped out the box to escape. The 2nd lot of dogs that had learned they could not stop the shocks, just lay in the corner of the box whimpering, even though they could quite easily get out of the box!

This experiment was later replicated with people. When people were put into a situation they didn't like and could do nothing about it (such as being exposed to loud excruciating noise for example), then later put into a situation that was just as bad but they could easily do something about it, they didn't even bother to try.

They called this Learned Helplessness. Helplessness is a belief that nothing you do will have an effect on your environment, so you don't bother to try. You become apathetic.

I just wanted to offer the above information because many parents don't realise that there are some people who believe CC is not training kids to sleep, it is teaching them Learned Helplessness. It hasn't been researched widely enough to know, but I think it's a fairly viable theory and it makes enough sense to me that I will not to use CC with my kids if I can possibly avoid it. I don't want to start a riot - I just offer that information for you to make up your own mind.

Balham, you said last night it was more of a resigned cry, and that's what prompted me to write this, because it seems to fit with the Learned Helplessness thing. In answer to one of your first questions, I don't think there is anything wrong with stopping the CC if you decide it's not in the best interest of your child. I'm not telling you to stop - just saying take all the information and make up your own mind. I hope that helps. :)

Edited to add: Just to demonstrate the significance of 'helplessness', when people commit suicide, it is not because of how depressed they are. It is directly related to how helpless they feel in relation to their situation. The opposite of learned helplessness is learned optimism, i.e. learning that you can control your environment and circumstances. People who are optimistic have been shown statistically to be happier, more successful and even more physically healthy than others.

[Sarie]

Nathan was still having his bottle till he was 2, I think it was a comfort thing for him, so if it were me, I'd leave her with her bottle for now.
Wait till you've got her settled into her new routine and then give it a go.
Though we were surprised with Nat, we waited till hubby was on holidays cause we thought it would be a huge drama to get rid of, but on the third night he didn't even ask for it.
I'm glad she's doing well, I hope tonight is even better!

[balham]

Cosmic, I value your opinion. However, as a Psychology graduate, I have done my fair share of research into the emotional, cognitive and social development of children (and animals). I do not believe that controlled crying teaches a ‘learned helplessness’ – if I had a doubt in my mind as to whether leaving her to cry for a few minutes longer each time would affect her place in the world, her view of the world, or her development, I would not contemplate it. So many outside influences go towards making up who we are, and where our place is in life, that I do not believe one thing, such as controlled crying, will affect a child in such a way that it will learn a ‘helplessness’ that will last throughout a lifetime. It has been proven that if you take a group of adults, you would not be able to tell from their behaviour, socio-economic status or general outlook etc if they had been bottle fed/ breast fed, slept in a cot or co-slept, were left to cry for a few minutes or were immediately picked up. We are being influenced every day of our lives, from the moment we are born, and the most important factor to me is to ensure that I raise my children in a nurtured loving environment, that prepares them for the challenges ahead. However, I understand completely that it is each to their own, and that you are entitled to your opinions and views about how you would like to raise your child.

My queries were not really related to whether CC would damage my child, but more to gain some support and advice from others while we are actually going through the process. Please believe me, I do not like hearing my child cry under any circumstances, but I do believe that she needs to learn to put herself to sleep and this is the method we have chosen.

Thanks Sarie – perhaps it is best to wait. To be honest, I don’t know how much she relies on it. We stopped all the other bottles with no fuss at all, so I am hoping that as long as she gets a drink of milk, she may not worry whether it’s in a bottle or a cup…well, here’s hoping we may be lucky!

[Sarie]

Good luck hon, I'll be thinking of you!!

[cosmic]

Balham - like I said, it wasn't to start a riot, just to offer information that many parents don't have when they make a decision about CC. I'm glad that you do. I posted because I got the impression you were concerned about your baby screaming for 40 minutes, as opposed to just being left to cry for a few minutes (that's how I read your post). I'm also a psych graduate, for what that's worth, and as I said - I know there is not enough research currently to be able to draw any conclusions about the long-term effects of CC but the Australian Assocation for Infant Mental Health Inc. is concerned enough about what those effects might be, to put out a paper recommending it not be used until 18mths if at all.

You're obviously committed to CC and that being the case, I wish you all the best and hope she settles soon so you can all get some peace! :) I'm sorry that from your first post I got the impression you still weren't sure about it - otherwise I wouldn't have said anything at all.

Good luck.

PS. In case you haven't read that paper, it does recommend that you when you go in to soothe the child, you base it on the level of distress in the cry, as opposed to the number of minutes of the clock... if that helps.

[balham]

You are not starting a riot, but surely you didn’t expect me not to respond when this is a ‘pro-controlled crying’ thread?

I was concerned about our daughter screaming for 40 minutes, and as I do not have any family members in this country, or many friends who have small children, I was looking for support (note support) from this site. That support (not opinions) can really only come from people who have been there and done that. I am sure that you will agree that you can read as many car manuals as you want, but you still won’t know how to look after, maintain and fix a car until you have owned one yourself…or worked as a mechanic.

The 40 minutes was the total amount of time, from start to finish that she cried, not the length of time we left her on her own. We went in and comforted her as necessary.

I have read the paper - thank you – and if offers some interesting points. I have also read many other pieces of research from the UK and other European countries, as well as the States, some for and some against. Most would agree not to try CC under 6 months, but the majority say any time after that is fine. As I said, I wanted to research this as thoroughly as possible before jumping in, which is why we have waited until she was this age before starting. As toddlers grow they are learning more and more each day, and things quickly become a habit. Undergoing CC at 13 months is hopefully going to achieve much better results than trying this in another 6 months, or 12 months.

Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, I was looking for support on this particular thread.

[cosmic]

Balham, I'm sorry you feel I wasn't being supportive but I've seen many instances of mothers asking for advice or support and when someone is brave enough to offer them an alternative view, they've been grateful. So even if my contribution wasn't useful to you in this instance, I'm sure someone will read this thread (including both our contributions as well as all the others) and learn something they didn't already know and in my mind, that has to be a good thing.

I know it's a pro-CC thread and have tried very hard to be sensitive to that in both my posts. I truly hope it does get easier for you.

[cosmic]

By the way Balham, if any of that research that has been done in other countries is available publicly or online, I would be really interested to read it if you can direct me to it. Thanks. :)

[balham]

I contacted the Psychology departments of my old universities who were only too happy to point me in the right direction of the relevant research. Most of the research is public and available from university libraries. Perhaps you could contact your old department here and they could do the same, or at least direct you to the right place?

[cosmic]

Thanks. I have done searches on some of the psych databases I still have access to and there doesn't appear to be much available so I will talk to someone.

[draught]

Balham
Just wanted to pipe in and say that I have used CC with both my girls (and am also a psych graduate if that is relevant to the discussion :confused: ) and that we found that when they were older it only took 2 - 3 nights before they would put themselves to sleep. We first used it with DD1 when she was about 9 or 10 months old, then had to use it again at about 14 months and again at about 18 months after some bad habits snuck in (like her coming to our bed earlier and earlier every night and us getting no sleep while she kicked and wiggled and played). When we did it at 14 months she cried for about 40 mintues total the first night, about 10 minutes the next night and only a minute the third. So it does get easier. I hope things improve for you and your daughter.

Cosmic
I know you mean well and are trying to be as sensitive as possible, but this IS a pro-controlled crying thread, and there are many other places on the site for you to keep posting this information. Many mothers who are in need of support are also very vulnerable (often enhanced by the sleep deprivation they are experiencing) and having suggestions made that they are irrepairably harming their children, particularly with graphic descriptions of animals being hurt, does not help or support anyone. If you insist on posting in this section of the forum, perhaps your contribution could be to remind the person asking the question that there are no-cry sleep solutions offered in another thread if they would like alternatives, and leave it at that?

[rynosmum]

As many of you know, we did a form of CC for our little boy when he was very young - only about 3 months. It went for about 3 - 4 nights.

What we have now is a little boy who can sleep almost anywhere happily. He will sleep in his pram, on a mattress, in the car etc. He will run into his room at night with his pillow ready for bed. I will give him his blanket and he'll say 'nigh nigh' and roll over and go straight to sleep. He has slept through from 6:30pm - 5:30am since he was 6 months old.

You need to be aware of your baby's safety and comfort but teaching them to go to sleep early is not learned helplessness, it's a learned skill that will provide them with better sleep. It also gives them a form of independence.

A baby who falls asleep on the breast wakes up scared because they don't know where they are and where Mummy has gone. They then fight sleep because they always wake up with such a dramatic experience. A baby who knows how to self-settle will wake up, know that they are exactly where they thought they should be and will roll over and go back to sleep.

Cosmic, all due respect but I had a very different perception on many things pre-baby. I was NEVER going to control cry. Actually having bubs has made me change many of my initial thoughts because you do what's best for you and the bubby. I have seen great benefit in CCing - I have seen no downside whatsoever in a real life experience. That said, we all find things that work for us - for us it has been CC. :)

[Sarie]

We started around the same age for both our boys Rynosmum. Also with success. :)

[balham]

Matilda was asleep after 30 minutes last night, and although she cried a little, she mainly spent that time chatting to teddy. She seems to get more restless when we go in, so I kept an ear out and tried to keep the contact to a minimum. She woke in the night as well, but settled herself - she has always been able to do this, it's just putting her to bed that became the nightmare. Getting her to bed this way has actually been a lot quicker than I imagined. For the past couple of weeks, when she has cried we have gone in and rocked her etc, come out, she's woken up, we've gone in again - and that has taken anywhere from an hour to three hours. This way, I am confident that she will sleep, after a little cry, and so it is much less disturbing for her when she wakes up and we aren't there. We are planning on sticking to this if the results continue to be evident.

[Sarie]

Excellent, I'm glad it's working for you!!
They do get more upset the more you go in. If she can already settle herself during the night, it won't take her too long to get the hang of the idea. Nat now has some books in his bed and he will 'read' them before he goes to sleep. He also sings to himself, quite cute really :)

[cosmic]

Cosmic, all due respect but I had a very different perception on many things pre-baby. I was NEVER going to control cry.
I hear what you're saying, K... and I don't profess to be an expert on any of it. In fact I freely admit I'm going to not know what hit me when the little screamer arrives. :p

Before I depart the PRO-CC section forever, I just wanted to point out that in my 1500 odd bubhub posts, I think I've posted perhaps three times in relation to CC (maybe 5??), so I certainly don't insist on posting in this section of the forum. And if I've stepped on toes, I apologise. My only response is that it's hard to know where the line is when, even though it's a pro-CC section, some of the mothers who post here seem to be very hesitant about starting it or continuing it, and I would hate to think they are doing something they don't want to because of the expectation that seems to be around that babies "should" self-settle/sleep through/whatever...

From now on, I will simply assume that if it's in this section, people have done their research and are committed to the process. :)

oh, and Balham - I am glad it's getting easier for you. ;)

[cosmic]

perhaps your contribution could be to remind the person asking the question that there are no-cry sleep solutions offered in another thread if they would like alternatives, and leave it at that?
And yes, Draught - if I really can't help myself and have to look in here, I will do that. ;)

[rynosmum]

Before I depart the PRO-CC section forever

Who knows ? You might be back here in the not too distant future ;) I don't want to be too-pro anything but have found CC to work really well for us.

Last night though we 'camped' in our new house (we're moving on Tuesday). Ry hadn't had his afternoon nap so was wired when we got there. He then went to bed late - with his routine quite a bit different - and sleeping in his portacot. He freaked out - I sat with him for ages trying to console him and just couldn't. He was overtired and in a new environment. I spent 20 minutes trying to console him and only when I left the room did he start to calm down in just a couple of minutes. But this morning we are back home, he has his bottle and walks calmly into his room and says 'bed' so I put him down for a nap. :confused:

The success of CC will be affected by oher factors on occassion - a routine and consistency is key. And I almost failed it last night by breaking routine and consistency - but like all mums, if I think bubs is truly distraught, I will be there in a flash. Although he seemed better when I left him to deal with it - very strange. You have to also use your best judgement to determine if it will work for your family.

K

[balham]

Tilly has responded really well to CC, and for the last two nights has been asleep 5 minutes after being put to bed. The difference it has made to my husband and myself is fantastic. Before, I finished work and almost dreaded the evening ahead, knowing that we would spend hours trying to get her to sleep and then fall into bed ourselves having ditched dinner again. Now, even though she gives a little cry when she is first put in her cot, she cuddles teddy and is asleep within minutes. We have been able to eat dinner together again! Thanks for all the support out there, it has meant a great deal!

[Sarie]

Good work hon! When you can get rest yourself and you're not fighting them every step of the way it makes a huge difference!!!

[rynosmum]

Well done and congratulations to Tilly !!! :D

[Jacksmummy]

My bub is 1 next week and about a month ago started putting on the tears at bedtime and refusing to go to sleep. He is an angle going down for his morning and afternoon sleeps so I just don't understand. I am doing the same as you and have been for a week. He was doing 2hr sleeps both in the morning and afternoon which I have cut back to 1.5hrs, wake him at 3.30pm and then start the dreaded bed routine at 7pm. He screamed for 1hr the 1st & 2nd nights but but slept through, 10 mins the next 2 nights and 5 mins the next 2 nights and we thought we had it sorted. Until Sat night just gone and it took 40 mins and then he woke twice during the night and the same happended last night!! I feel like I am going backward. He does have a running nose though so that may have contributed. Tonight I am giving him some decongestant and pain releif to cover that off but we are sticking to our guns. I give him his bottle at 7pm, a little cuddle, pop him into bed with all the I love you's and leave. When he starts crying I first leave him for 2 mins, go in tell him I love him and lay him back down (like your little one he stands up and shakes the bars screaming) and leave. Next time I do the same but don't say anything and no eye contact just lay him down and walk out. I leave him for increments of 30secs but have not left him for longer than 5 mins. Please let me know how you are doing and any other hits you may have.:confused:

[jessica]

Hi Jacksmummy,

Just wanted to add that we have been doing CC since my little one was 6months - it worked great for us - but we do have our ups and downs - like everything they sleep like angels for a while but then hit a bump in the road - colds, the dreaded teething!! and weather changes really throw my little one off! Just lately she has put up a fight at bedtime and has been waking in the night - she has just got her 4 first molars (all at once!!:eek: ) and the weather has changed with a colder change coming through and we visited a friend with a very sniffly baby and she seems to be hitting a developmental milestone with her first steps:D ... well the point is I try not to get too worried about the bumps in the road because there are so many!! Lots of cuddles in the rough patches work for us!! Eventually normality returns... for a while;)

[balham]

Hi there. Tilly is doing very well. There are now no tears at all, she gets carried off to bed with a little bit of a sad face, she lays down, and probably spends about 10 minutes just laying there, awake but settled, and then she is asleep. However, over the two to three months that we have been doing this, we have had some ups and downs. Little things, that we didn't think would affect her too much, have thrown her off course - grandparents visiting and winding her up a little too much, not having a long enough nap in the afternoon etc. However, we just keep persevering and she gets right back on track after a few days. I hope that helps. It is worth continuing, as we now don't dread bedtimes, and actually feel that we could leave her with a babysitter now, without too many dramas. Good luck!!

[MissSparkle]

I took the plunge into CC by going to tresillian. To have support for those first couple of days was great! THe first night took 1hour and 25mins to go to sleep. (He'd previously been breastfed to sleep)
After that the time kept going down. Its been about 3weeks now and he still cries for 5-10mins but its not so much crying as yelling out "mumma!" If he gets really upset I go in and remind him to lye down, give him a kiss and walk straight back out. Its been a miracle!