View Full Version : Husband is adamant about circing
Ok, I have an issue here. My husband, since the day we found out we were pg with our first child has been adamant that any sons we have will be circ'd. No question. I am not sure, I was planning on doing it, but after reading threads am now re-thinking. But he is not.
I have shown him all the sites, all the studies, but he wont budge. He says that he wants it done, even if he has to take him himself to get it done.
What can I do? I was raised to believe its the fathers choice. I want to support him, but dont feel comfortable anymore.
His opinion is not more important than yours. Someone here (sorry can't recall who it was - apologies :hugs:) came up with the suggestion of a compromise - leave it until your son is old enough to decide for himself. That sounds like a great plan to me (and how could he possibly object to that?). Best of luck (I hope it doesn't require thrid party mediation).
Cheers
Hi there, it's a really tricky situation as you already have 1 child, and this one is on its way! I told my pro-circ. husband well before we were married that it's just not an option. It's my way or the highway. It might seem tough, so have a good think about how important it is to you. If it's something you really can't stand the thought of, maybe you'll need to do the same and give him an ultimatum. Not fun though :hugs:
MotherNurture
17-02-2007, 16:34
Who's penis is it?
Not yours.
Not your husband's.
It belongs to your child, your soon-to-be-born son, a future autonomous man who will one day be using it sexually and has to live with it for the rest of his life.
Circumcision is a VERY personal decision---that's why it should be your son's.
Circumcision is surgery, and anyone advocating taking a scapel to a healthy newborn should have very good, solid reasons with the best interests and well-being of the child, solely, at heart.
Your son will be born healthy, normal, beautiful, perfect, complete; if someone wants to change his natural state, the burden of proof lays on them, not you.
This essay may give you some insights into how your partner may be feeling, which may help you better relate to him and address his concerns: The Vulnerability of Men (http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html)
Another thing to keep in mind is that while your husband has a penis, he presumably doesn't have a foreskin and probably doesn't remember having one. You, on the other hand, as an intact woman, do have a foreskin-or, "prepuce"-it's your clitoral hood. That puts you in a better position than your husband to understand it's value. Compare the surface of your clitoris, slightly moist, thin, sensitive, rosey, and shiny with the surface of your husband's glans (penis head). If he still had his protective foreskin, the surface of his glans would look just like the surface of your clitoris.
Jen
Shanaynay
17-02-2007, 16:48
Yep I agree - leave that decision up to your SON :thumbsup:
AquaDevil78
17-02-2007, 16:55
I already said this in another post, definately it is your sons decision.. the only time i can justify it at such a young age, would plainly be a medical reason. Ie: Not formed correctly, or whatever the reason.
I know a lot of men who hate not having a foreskin. They wish they had been given the choice. Dont let your hubby talk you into something your not comfortable with for his own selfish reasons. :hugs:
My son due soon, will be given the opportunity to make that choice for himself when he is old enough. :yes:
His opinion is not more important than yours. Someone here (sorry can't recall who it was - apologies :hugs:) came up with the suggestion of a compromise - leave it until your son is old enough to decide for himself. That sounds like a great plan to me (and how could he possibly object to that?). Best of luck (I hope it doesn't require thrid party mediation).
Cheers
I have told him all of this before. I have even threatened to leave if I have a son so he cant get it done. He will NOT listen to reason. His thought is that he doesnt have one & doesnt remember ever having one. I've shown him pics, i've found videos, nothing works. I really do not want to ever have a son as I know he wont give in. He is a stubborn so & so. He has even considered changing religions to get it done that way.
I tell him about the lack of sensativity with being done & he responds "I dont have a lack of sensativity, & if I do it just means I can last longer."
To him its a cleanliness thing & i'm sure its cosmetic too.
I on one hand dont want to get it done, but on the other dont want my son to get an infection or something that could have been prevented by getting him circ'd.
Thank god i'm not pg yet is all I can say.
sam's mum
17-02-2007, 17:31
Is it worth the argument at the moment? You might never have a son and therefore it is a moot point. If he brings it up, let him know that you are against it, but that as you don't agree, there is no point discussing it unless it becomes an issue that actually needs a resolution.
SilverStarfish
17-02-2007, 17:34
You're in a tough spot :hugs: But if it were happening in my house, there is absolutely no way I would allow any child, boy or girl, to be circumcised. Luckily DH feels the same way, but I would not change my mind if he felt differently. It's the one parenting issue that I simply will not/would not give in on. Period.
Like many people have said so far, it's not your penis or your husband's. It would be your son's. When he's old enough he can decide for himself.
SilverStarfish
17-02-2007, 17:35
Is it worth the argument at the moment? You might never have a son and therefore it is a moot point. If he brings it up, let him know that you are against it, but that as you don't agree, there is no point discussing it unless it becomes an issue that actually needs a resolution.
Good point :detective:
Mister Noodle
17-02-2007, 17:45
I still want to know if he'd have the legal right to do anything.
If one parent adamantly refuses permission, wouldn't it be assault for the other parent to go through with it?
AquaDevil78
17-02-2007, 17:53
I don't know about assualt as such, but you would think that both parents would have to consent to it, would they not?? Ie: Both sign the forms??
As far as I'm aware, surgeons will not perform the procedure without the signed consent of both parents, unless there are extenuating circumstances - such as not knowing who the father is, or one parent being completely off the scene.
And yes, you can argue that surgery performed without proper consent is assault.
I find it quite sad that he is so adamant about this. I'm very sorry that he won't negotiate with you.
On a personal note, I can't fathom why some men get so het up about circ-ing their sons. My DH doesn't like the idea, which is a relief - it's an argument we don't have to have!
If you can never talk about it without fighting, perhaps you could both write down your opinions on the matter and then read each other's letters, away from each other. This might help him to appreciate your viewpoint.
Good luck. I really hope you don't find yourself forced into a decision that you're uncomfortable with.
the_queen
17-02-2007, 19:16
If I was in your position, I wouldn't let my son out of my sight.
If he was insisting on have your daughter circumcised, you wouldn't allow that, would you?
Who's penis is it?
Not yours.
Not your husband's.
It belongs to your child, your soon-to-be-born son, a future autonomous man who will one day be using it sexually and has to live with it for the rest of his life.
Circumcision is a VERY personal decision---that's why it should be your son's.
Circumcision is surgery, and anyone advocating taking a scapel to a healthy newborn should have very good, solid reasons with the best interests and well-being of the child, solely, at heart.
Your son will be born healthy, normal, beautiful, perfect, complete; if someone wants to change his natural state, the burden of proof lays on them, not you.
This essay may give you some insights into how your partner may be feeling, which may help you better relate to him and address his concerns: The Vulnerability of Men (http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html)
Another thing to keep in mind is that while your husband has a penis, he presumably doesn't have a foreskin and probably doesn't remember having one. You, on the other hand, as an intact woman, do have a foreskin-or, "prepuce"-it's your clitoral hood. That puts you in a better position than your husband to understand it's value. Compare the surface of your clitoris, slightly moist, thin, sensitive, rosey, and shiny with the surface of your husband's glans (penis head). If he still had his protective foreskin, the surface of his glans would look just like the surface of your clitoris.
Jen
agree!
If I was in your position, I wouldn't let my son out of my sight.
If he was insisting on have your daughter circumcised, you wouldn't allow that, would you?
Thats a ridiculous thing to ask. Female circ is against the law for starters.
Thanks for all the sensible posts. You all make alot of sense. I am relieved to know that it cant be done if I object to it.
I have again tried to broach the subject tonight & I mentioned any future sons choosing to have it done if & when they want to, he keeps going on about it being humiliating to have it done when older, that it should be done when the baby is young.
As for the not discussing it without having a son, i'd rather get it sorted out now than stressing about it while i'm pg or after having had a child.
mysonroger
17-02-2007, 20:10
His opinion is not more important than yours. Someone here (sorry can't recall who it was - apologies :hugs:) came up with the suggestion of a compromise - leave it until your son is old enough to decide for himself. That sounds like a great plan to me (and how could he possibly object to that?). Best of luck (I hope it doesn't require thrid party mediation).
Cheers
Ooooooo.....that was me , that was me (and here i was thinking that nobody actually read my posts........). I'm all excited now......
mysonroger
17-02-2007, 20:22
I have again tried to broach the subject tonight & I mentioned any future sons choosing to have it done if & when they want to, he keeps going on about it being humiliating to have it done when older, that it should be done when the baby is young.
.
it won't be humiliating if your son has decided for himself that that's what he really wants to do......
maybe your DH might need to hear it from someone else, or maybe just needs more time to process it. sounds like he was taking it for granted that a circ would be done and then suddenly.....WHAMMO! . My DH can be so stubborn sometimes and not listen to reason, but give him some time, and eventually he 'gets it'......
don't know how much time you have, but maybe you need to drop the subject for awhile and give yourselves a chance to clear your heads. He will mull it over, for sure, but as to what decision he comes to....???
but anyway, you could probably use a bit more time to really put a good case forward and find out about the consent stuff and all that...... and sounds like he neeeds more time to give a proper reason why he thinks it needs to be done.
MotherNurture
18-02-2007, 04:49
I have told him all of this before. I have even threatened to leave if I have a son so he cant get it done. He will NOT listen to reason. His thought is that he doesnt have one & doesnt remember ever having one. I've shown him pics, i've found videos, nothing works. I really do not want to ever have a son as I know he wont give in. He is a stubborn so & so. He has even considered changing religions to get it done that way.
If you become pregnant, there's a 50/50 chance of a boy; unless you adopt. However, if he's so adamant/inflexible about this, it's possible he'll be this way (illogical, demanding, selfish) about other parenting decisions as well. It may really be time to reassess your personalities, priorities, values, & compatibility---now, before bringing children into the picture.
I tell him about the lack of sensativity with being done & he responds "I dont have a lack of sensativity, & if I do it just means I can last longer."
He had a part of his penis cut off; that part was laden with nerves and blood vessels. It served one of the same purposes as your foreskin, your prepuce, the clitoral hood; amputating it also desensitized his glans through a process called 'keratiniaztion', similar to what would happen to the bottoms of your feet if you went barefood all summer.
To him its a cleanliness thing & i'm sure its cosmetic too.
The hygiene issue is a myth; care of an intact baby is easy, just wipe off the outside like you would a finger. When he's older, and can comfortably retract his own foreskin, all he needs to do is "Retract, Rinse, Replace". It's not rocket science; it's easier than brushing your teeth, even.
Cutting off part of another person's (especially a child's) primary sex organ because of your own personal asthetic/sexual preferrences is extremely disturbing, IMO.
I on one hand dont want to get it done, but on the other dont want my son to get an infection or something that could have been prevented by getting him circ'd.
The chances of him -ever- requiring a circumcision for medical reasons is just 1%, the exact same percentage of circumcised boys that require a 'recircumcision' or revision. However, circumcising also puts him at a 10% risk of meatal stenosis that usually requires additional corrective surgery, sometimes under general anesthesia and a 71% risk of penile adhesions, which many doctors still painfully lyse (tear back), often repeatedly, without anesthetic.
Thank god i'm not pg yet is all I can say.
I'll be the dessenting voice and say that I think it's refreshing to see someone researching this topic and seeking advice before they become pregnant, and since you and your husband have such opposing positions on this issue---you would leave him over it, he would consider changing religions to have it done---I would encourage you to avoid becoming pregnant until you remedy this disagreement.
It can cause endless resentment-even, the marriage-ending kind-if you, feeling that circumcision is unnecessary and damaging were to 'give in' to your partner and let him cause permanent harm to your lil' bub, your flesh and blood, for superficial or selfish reasons. Handing your son over, and allowing him to be cut-his tiny glans, literally skinned-in conflict with post-partum hormones and a powerful, primal, protective maternal instinct is a recipe for disaster.
Imagine how you'd feel if you left to go to the grocery store or he took your baby in for a check-up or said he was going to visit your inlaws and the next time you saw your baby boy he had a reddened face, glassy eyes, and a fresh wound? I cannot fathom how violated, furious, disgusted, hearbroken, and mistrusting that would make me.
I can't help but wonder what I would do in your situation if I married a man from a culture who circumcised girls. What if, prior to becoming pregnant, he told me he felt so strongly about it that he promised if we were ever blessed with a female child he would absolutely insist she undergo the rite, regardless of my wishes, regardless of my concerns, regardless of the positions of medical organizations, regardless of the harms...and that he would kidnap her and take her overseas to have it done if he had to.
Honestly, because it would be so clear to me his priorities as a potential father and his values and beliefs were so out of touch with my own, I'd probably leave before becoming pregnant with any of his offspring.
Jen
MotherNurture
18-02-2007, 04:56
Thanks for all the sensible posts. You all make alot of sense. I am relieved to know that it cant be done if I object to it.
I wound't count on that without getting some qualified legal advice to confirm this, and since he's suggested he might 'convert' to a different faith in order to have an infant son circumcised, having it done as a religious rite rather than a medical operation might be another possible way he could get around consent laws.
As for the not discussing it without having a son, i'd rather get it sorted out now than stressing about it while i'm pg or after having had a child.
I agree 100%.
Jen
Thanks Mother Nurture.
We spoke again last night after I had re-read the thread (yes I know i'm silly) & told him flat out that i'm not consenting to it & that he cant get it done. He replied "yeah I know" so maybe, just maybe he will respect my wishes.
As for him taking the bub somewhere & getting it done without my knowledge, it would never happen. He has never taken our daughter anywhere without me & as bub would be breastfed, he wouldnt be stupid enough to try. He knows what DD is like if she wants a bf & i'm not there :laughing:
Again, thankyou.
I'm so glad you are asserting yourself, and it seems your husband realises you are serious!!YAY!! :yelclap:
It really is up to us mums to keep our boys safe.
~rambox~
18-02-2007, 07:05
To him its a cleanliness thing & i'm sure its cosmetic too.
I on one hand dont want to get it done, but on the other dont want my son to get an infection or something that could have been prevented by getting him circ'd.
Thank god i'm not pg yet is all I can say.
IMO I think you should stop ttc until you are sure that you are going to be able to do what you think is right for your baby. Because bringing a baby into fighting isnt good for you or the baby.
As far as I'm aware, surgeons will not perform the procedure without the signed consent of both parents, unless there are extenuating circumstances - such as not knowing who the father is, or one parent being completely off the scene.
In Qld my boys were done with only my signature
mysonroger
18-02-2007, 16:56
COLOR]
[COLOR=Blue]In Qld my boys were done with only my signature
that's scary......and irrseponsible of whatever doctor makes that decision.
My husband felt quite strongly that he wanted our boys done (when I was first pregnant with DS1) because he wanted them to be like him. however, I wasn't keen - so he discussed it with his sister (who's a paed) and considered the fact he would be different from all the boys at school (that was his big "con") and that there was no real medical reason to do so and decided that it was unnecessary.
Perhaps you should suggest he does his own research and convinces you why it should be done medically??? After all this is a decision that the 2 of you need to be happy with... and if you're not, then leave it for your son to decide.
reAllytee
21-02-2007, 23:14
Thanks for all the sensible posts. You all make alot of sense. I am relieved to know that it cant be done if I object to it.
Not entirely sure about this but when my son was done i didnt sign a consent form nor was DP involved as he was working so i made all doctors appts.
Wont get into anything else as you have had many posts with great advice.
Good luck i know you are in a tough spot.
Mister Noodle
21-02-2007, 23:54
Whether or not they need your consent, if it comes down to it a phone call ahead of time mentioning the word 'lawyers' would likely make them pretty reluctant.
Doctors do NOT like the 'L' word.
MotherNurture
22-02-2007, 02:35
The written consent of at least one parent is typically legally required; if it's done without either parent signing something, there's a good chance you have grounds for a lawsuit.
These are from the US, but some of the information may still be applicable:
Attorney's for the Rights of the Child (ARCLAW) (http://arclaw.org/)
Know Your Rights! (http://www.noharmm.org/knowrights.htm)
There's even a circumcision case going on right now, in a neighboring state, relating to parental consent issues. The child, Misha, is 12 years old. The father wants him cut, but both the child and the mother oppose it. Read more. (http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/info/appeal.html)
Jen
circangel
03-03-2007, 01:14
Perhaps you can think about the circ and about all the positive things, like your son would not need to be bothered about infections which does happen with a minoriy of boys I would suggest, but never the less it does. Infections are a common complaint and while it might be a preventitive measure you would not need to be concerned later if you do get it done now, where as you might be if he needs one later, not that you would need to be concerned but I guess that is how it happens.
Mamaduke
03-03-2007, 13:07
your son would not need to be bothered about infections which does happen with a minoriy of boys I would suggest, but never the less it does.
So does the same apply to tonsils, ears, toenails, kidneys, bladder, lungs, throat, eyes (that pesky conjuctivitis) etc etc etc etc?
If we lopped off parts of our bodies that were open to infections there'd be nothing left of us!
SilverStarfish
03-03-2007, 13:13
My thoughts exactly!
OscarTheGrouch
03-03-2007, 14:04
I too was going to get my DS#1 circumcised. For me coming from a generation of circ'ed men, I too thought that was the norm. And IMO it looks better. It was actually my DH, who has made smart remarks about un-circ'ed penis' before and who is circ'ed talked me out of it. He just said while he hasn't suffered any ill effects of being circ'ed, he felt it's just not the done thing anymore. And that was that. I have 2 intacts bubby boys. Good luck with TTC boy germs.:fingerscrossed:
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