Was it that bad???

[Mummy2Noah]

Okey after a long debate with hubby weather or not to Circumsise our baby if we have a boy i have given into him and we are going to get it done. I just wont to no what the actual procedure is my SIL said they just put a cap on the end there is no slicing or cutting but i cant imagine thats correct so if anyone knows how it is really done that would be great !!!
THANKS

[Lirael]

there is definately cutting done. sorry, the idea of it makes me wanna :barf:

[mum33]

you shouldnt go through with it if your husband had to talk you into it or you felt like you had to give in to him.

im against it so i dont know much about it but i am sure there is cutting involved.

also you should be aware that it is not often done these days and it serves no medical purpose.

people just have it done to "be like dad" or for hygiene reasons (which i totally disagree with but hey its those peoples choice) but it doesnt need to be done. it is purely a cosmetic procedure.

[Mummy2Noah]

there is definately cutting done. sorry, the idea of it makes me wanna :barf:

:shame: Dont be sorry im the same!!!! But hubby wonts it done either way so i gotta respect his decision!! I thought there would have to be cutting done!!!

[Ashleigh<3]

Hi hun.. Adam was the same, untill I showed him the info, the pictures and he said NO WAY!

There's a lot of information on it, I'll send you some good stuff over msn, Might help you understand it a bit better. :)

[melfunction]

Dont be sorry im the same!!!! But hubby wonts it done either way so i gotta respect his decision!! I thought there would have to be cutting done!!!

Tell hubby he can take the baby and hold him down while they are doing it.

[RoarsomeMum]

My Nephew had the plasitbell - no cutting.
http://www.russellmedical.com.au/Plastibell.htm

[Mummy2Noah]

Hi hun.. Adam was the same, untill I showed him the info, the pictures and he said NO WAY!

There's a lot of information on it, I'll send you some good stuff over msn, Might help you understand it a bit better. :)

That would be Awesome Hun can you email it to erinmcevoy@hotmail.com Thanks Babe if it worked for Adam hopefully it might work for Mark!!!

[mum33]

:shame: Dont be sorry im the same!!!! But hubby wonts it done either way so i gotta respect his decision!! I thought there would have to be cutting done!!!

you dont have to respect his decision, its not just his decision. its a decision to be made between the both of us. you have to respect his opinion, but not be forced into a decision, which it sounds like you are.

is this something that you want too?

[Lirael]

My Nephew had the plasitbell - no cutting.
http://www.russellmedical.com.au/Plastibell.htm



*sigh* there IS cutting in the plastibell method. they may not cut it off, but they do cut it.

[Ashleigh<3]

Even though we had a girl, we were never prepped for info on circumcision. We were told that most hospitals don't do it (not that we considered it). I think most parent's have to go elsewhere.

[mum33]

My Nephew had the plasitbell - no cutting.
http://www.russellmedical.com.au/Plastibell.htm

that sounds horrific. is that supposed to be better than conventional circumcision... :confused:

[Mummy2Noah]

Tell hubby he can take the baby and hold him down while they are doing it.

I did many times i told him that i would have nothing to do with it and he was just like good i dont care its my son as well and its getting done he feels so strongley about it i dont understand why!!!! He normally is very easy to talk out of things but this is just not gunna happen.. And hes got all the support from my family and his own im the only one that thinks its wrong!!!:(

[Areca]

I was going to suggest that you get the info on it and show your DH. I think a lot of men are unaware of the procedure and once they see pics and video's of it being done and realise that it isn't medically necessary they change their mind.
I understand that some women feel that because it's a penis it's the man's decision to make but why? I'm not trying to be a pain but just want to make you think. Come h*ll or high water any son's of mine will not be circumcised. Thankfully DF is with me on this one but if he wasn't too bad, I feel way too strongly about to back down simply because he has the penis. I would show him as much information as possible, pictures, video's etc. so that he knew where I was coming from.
As parent's we unite as one. We disagree with each other sometimes of course but just because we have a daughter doesn't mean I get the final say, because we both have vagina's. We hear each other out and then come to an agreement, something we are both happy with. If you're not happy about it then don't give in. What if something went wrong with the circumcision (it happens), would you ever be able to forgive yourself?

[RoarsomeMum]

*sigh* there IS cutting in the plastibell method. they may not cut it off, but they do cut it.

*sigh* they did not cut it, they retracted the foreskin, placed a Plastic Bell type cone over the excess, and tightened teh bell untill the blood flow to the foreskin is stopped. the foreskin then dies and drops off with the plastibell in anywhere from 4-11 days time.

I am not saying it is a pleasent/non painful or even necessary proceedure. Just saying there was no cutting. - Perhaps different surgeons use different methods with the plastibell?

[Mummy2Noah]

My Nephew had the plasitbell - no cutting.
http://www.russellmedical.com.au/Plastibell.htm

Thanks hun this is what they must have done to my Nephew apparentley it took 10 mins and he didnt even cry!!! I hope its that easy...:fingerscrossed:

[Lirael]

I have seen footage of it done. they cut a slit in the foreskin.
also, that 'website' says they have to tie it to the skin.

IMO its horrific and disgusting. MY OPINION, not trying to cause an argument here. and diff docs may do it differently.

[Ashleigh<3]

I did many times i told him that i would have nothing to do with it and he was just like good i dont care its my son as well and its getting done he feels so strongley about it i dont understand why!!!! He normally is very easy to talk out of things but this is just not gunna happen.. And hes got all the support from my family and his own im the only one that thinks its wrong!!!:(

Well Erin hun, I hope that link I just sent you has enough horrid pictures that will make Mark change his mind.

Adam is circumcised but after seeing that he immediately changed his mind.

I didn't send that to you to make your mind up for you. I sent it to you so that way you can show Mark the opposition.

After reading about both sides of the issue I'm 100% against circumcising newborns.
IF we do ever have a boy, it will not be considered. If problems do occur, such as infections when he is a bit older, that's when we will decide what's best for our boy.

[Ashleigh<3]

What, exactly, does the "Circumcision" operation amputate?



Frenar Band, or Ridged Band
Gliding Action
Meissner's Corpuscles
Frenulum
Dartos Fascia
Immunological System
Lymphatic Vessels
Estrogen Receptors
Apocrine Glands
Langerhans Cells
Natural Glans Coloration
Length and Circumference
Blood Vessels
Dorsal Nerves
Circumcision performed during infancy disrupts the bonding process between child and mother. There are indications that the innate sense of trust in intimate human contact is inhibited or lost.

[Ashleigh<3]

I understand those who have said that it's the parents decision together.

But even if my DF wanted 'our son' circumcised, I'd be hiding out with my boy til the thought left my DF's mind. Thank goodness Adam know's how I'm so strongly against it.

[Mummy2Noah]

Ash i really appreciate the info hopefully it will be enough for Mark to change his mind to!!!:fingerscrossed:

Its just so hard when im fighting a battle against everyone i no my friends family and my hubby!!!
I mean at the end of the day how do you decide what to do If we cant agree !!!

[floggadog]

I didn't think the foreskin was even supposed to be retracted at such a young age. I was gently told off by my DR because DS1( age 3) had been retracting his & i'd noticed white spots under there.(all normal)
He said I wasn't to force the foreskin back at all.(wasn't me!)
Men are funny about their penises like they are the most precious resource in the world & no woman could possibly have a clue when it comes to their care

All I can say is poor little boys, leave them the way nature intended.

[Ashleigh<3]

I didn't think the foreskin was even supposed to be retracted at such a young age. I was gently told off by my DR because DS1( age 3) had been retracting his & i'd noticed white spots under there.(all normal)
He said I wasn't to force the foreskin back at all.(wasn't me!)
Men are funny about their penises like they are the most precious resource in the world & no woman could possibly have a clue when it comes to their care

All I can say is poor little boys, leave them the way nature intended.

I agree, It's funny how some Men react towards the subject lol It's like a personal thing, if their boys aren't circum'd will they not look at them the same?:confused:
A penis is a penis. I'd much rather focus on other health concerns such as feeding my boy and batheing him. Not cutting of his 'meant to be' body parts.

Listen to me lol I'm talking like I've already got a little boy :laughing:

[Mummy2Noah]

Hey i have the Answer !!!!!!
Ive gotta have a girl hehe wishful thinking!!! you never no though!!!

[Ashleigh<3]

Its just so hard when im fighting a battle against everyone i no my friends family and my hubby!!!
I mean at the end of the day how do you decide what to do If we cant agree !!!

:hugs: Don't worry, I know how it feels. :)
But remember, You're the mother. Not the stranger, not the MIL or the SIL. This is your child. Not theirs. They will make those decisions based on their own kids.

We don't circumcise little girls, why should we with boys? These parts are both used for the very same purpose.

[Ashleigh<3]

Awhh EASY AS THAT! *WALLLAH!*:wizard: :laughing:

[melfunction]

Its just so hard when im fighting a battle against everyone i no my friends family and my hubby!!!
I mean at the end of the day how do you decide what to do If we cant agree !!!

Must be very difficult for you, but tell everyone else to butt out. You made this baby with your DH, nobody else.

Maybe ask your Dh if he would get his daughter circ'd or if he would allow someone to cut off an ear without any reason..

[jacks mum]

our ds is circumcised and the pastibell method was used and NO the is no cutting, as previously said they put the bell between the head and foreskin and pull the excess skin over the top and tie it. As soon as it's tied it dies so it isn't an ongoing pain. He had a little cry when it was done and I fed him after and never had a problem since.

It is entirely up to you guys as parents though.

[Mummy2Noah]

Must be very difficult for you, but tell everyone else to butt out. You made this baby with your DH, nobody else.

Maybe ask your Dh if he would get his daughter circ'd or if he would allow someone to cut off an ear without any reason..

It is difficult and as i said i can tell the family to butt out i have done that already but how do you decide on an answer when DH and i have 2 total different opinions you no what i mean?? Who has the right to decide in the end the mother or the Father!!!??:thumbsdown:

[Mummy2Noah]

our ds is circumcised and the pastibell method was used and NO the is no cutting, as previously said they put the bell between the head and foreskin and pull the excess skin over the top and tie it. As soon as it's tied it dies so it isn't an ongoing pain. He had a little cry when it was done and I fed him after and never had a problem since.

It is entirely up to you guys as parents though.

:hugs: Its nice to hear some Positive feedback majority of ppl these days are against it so its hard to decide!!! Thanks heaps

[mum33]

Who has the right to decide in the end the mother or the Father!!!??:thumbsdown:

you both do!!!! i am appalled that your husband thinks it is his decision and his decision only!!!

[Ashleigh<3]

our ds is circumcised and the pastibell method was used and NO the is no cutting, as previously said they put the bell between the head and foreskin and pull the excess skin over the top and tie it. As soon as it's tied it dies so it isn't an ongoing pain. He had a little cry when it was done and I fed him after and never had a problem since.

It is entirely up to you guys as parents though.


It does seem less worse then the most common way. What do they tie it with?

[~rambox~]

It does seem less worse then the most common way. What do they tie it with?

They use silk to tie it and the also now give them a local in the P**** so they dont feel a thing

[Aquamarine]

I remember when my friends son was circumcised.:crying:

Ouch!! Hope all goes well anyhow.

[jacks mum]

it's tied with string believe it or not. like previously mentioned in 4 -10 days it just falls off, you just put bettadine sp? on it until then which I think helps keep infections away, no drama with nappies or anything and ds was 3 months when we had him done

[Ashleigh<3]

I've talked about this before, i've had something similar done. (No I don't have a penis) I had a skin tag when I wa 16, in the vaginal area. They gave me a local, wrapped a string around it too, and it came off but I remember screaming the house down, It didn't stop bleeding til 8 weeks after and whenever i'd sit down It would break again. AND THAT was just a skin tag. I imagine a foreskin to be more painful. :(

[Mister Noodle]

If it came right down to it, would he have the legal right if you didn't consent?

Seems to me it would count as assault and grievous bodily harm. After all, it would be if a stranger did it...

[Mummy2Noah]

Well if we go ahead with it the pastibell Method sounds like the go!!! Thanks guys:hugs:

[Lirael]

I really hope you have a girl

[SamanthaJane]

My sister had her son done. Her baby was fine with it, a bit grumpy that night and the next night but after that he was fine. I didn't ask her what they did because i didn't want to know....

Luckily me and my ex agreed that if Charlotte was a boy we would not have had her done. The reason being that every body part is there for a reason... It's hard because there is no "compromise" decision here... Either you win or he wins when you don't agree. Which sucks but thats the way it is i guess... :rolleyes:

Don't give in if it's not what you really want. My whole family and friends are for circ. but i'm totally against it. They can think what they like, at the end of the day it isn't my job to please them. :hugs:

[mum33]

I really hope you have a girl


i really hope so too...

[Ashleigh<3]

Ears are perfectly healthy- If infection occurs we treat them with antibiotics?

A baby boy is born with a perfectly healthy penis- Portion of society cuts them off?

A little boy's penis becomes infected- health professionals advise amutation. Parent's decide what's best.

:thumbsup:

[xkwzit]

Well if we go ahead with it the pastibell Method sounds like the go!!! Thanks guys:hugs:
Hi Erin
This is a thread about the plastibell method and references a document from Hollister's site (the makers of the plastibell).
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=42579&highlight=hollister

They clearly state that crushing and then a cut is required to fit the plastibell. Make sure that you get all your facts straight with your doctor, because cutting is the way the makers intended it to be used.

Cheers

[Africamum]

If your DP is like my DP (and probably many others), If you leave the procedure up to them to organise, it will NEVER get done :yes: .

Families IMO can feel "under threat" when you make a decision different to what was done previously. My Inlaws were very surprised / horrified when DS was not done. But he is my child and I will bring him up as I see fit.

Goodluck

[Pippi Longstocking]

They clearly state that crushing and then a cut is required to fit the plastibell.



Good God, that made my eyes water! Poor wee bubbas, it just seems so wrong on so many levels!

IMO, both parents have an equal right and responsibility to make an informed decision together regarding cosmetic alterations tot heir child. Mummy2b, has your partner actually researched the procedure himself? Or is he doing the ol' "well, it was good enough for me and my pappy and his pappy before him....' argument? :rolleyes:
My advice would be to ask him to research it and then do your own research. Then come together and discuss the pros and cons together. If this can be done maturely, you are bound to "win" as there is far more literature suggesting that routine circumcision is unnecessary and painful then there is to suggest that it ought to be done.

[MotherNurture]

My Nephew had the plasitbell - no cutting.
http://www.russellmedical.com.au/Plastibell.htm

Sorry, but Dr. Russell has had diciplinary action taken against him relating to unethical behavior---so it's really NO surprise that he's being dishonest about the Plastibell procedure. It absolutely requires cutting! If you google, "plastibell pictures" or "plastibell video" you will see cutting is very much part of the procedure. Also, you can view drawings from the manufacturer here: http://www.kelleycom.com/images/articles/circum.jpg

Also, from experience assisting with newborn circumcisions there are several points where the foreskin is torn or cut during the plastibell method:

1. When the foreskin is forcefully stretched open---this is very traumatic and causes tears at the tip.

2. When a blunt probe or scissors is introduced between the foreskin and the glans to tear the adhered structures apart.

3. When a dorsal slit is clamped and cut to introduce the plastibell device.

4. When the foreskin is trimmed after the ligature is tied.

Those reading may also want to google "necrotizing fasciitis circumcision", a very severe, horrific complication associated with the Plastibell method specifically. Within the first few links you should be able to find reprints of the journal article, complete with photographs.

It disturbs me to no end that the Plastibell method is still presented by many as some sort of kinder, gentler procedure-it's nothing of the sort. In fact, the glans is just as raw (from forceful separation of the foreskin and glans which are adhered-literally, fused-at birth) but unlike the gomco and mogen methods, no vasoline is used so, guess what? There is no barrier ointment to keep urine from coming in direct contact with the red, raw, weepy glans during the healing period -AND- plastibell circumcisions are notoriously looser, increasing the risk of penile adhesions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10893633&dopt=Abstract

To the OP: Your husband may have *a* penis, but it's not his penis who surgery is being considered for. Did you know that you, as a woman, actually have a foreskin? It's your clitoral hood, and, like a male's foreskin it protects your glans (as a female, your glans clitoris). Without the protection of the foreskin (prepuce), the glans dries and thickens through a process called keratinization, progressively reducing sensitivity.

An adult male foreskin has 3-4 feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and tens of thousands of specialized nerve endings. It has protective, immunological, and sexual functions. It contains unique structures like the frenulum (male g-spot) and ridged band. An adult foreskin is a mobile, double-layered, tubular sheath of skin averaging 15 square inches (picture a 3x5 index card).

Please, reconsider leaving this decision soley up to your husband; it will affect your son very intimately for the rest of his life. It should be a fully informed choice, after thorough research on the anatomy & physiology of the foreskin and the effects and risks of routine infant circumcision-a surgery not recommended by any medical organization in the world.

See also: The Vulnerability of Men (http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html)

Jen

[melfunction]

Oh god I feel sick after reading that Jen :barf:

[MotherNurture]

Oh god I feel sick after reading that Jen :barf:

:crying:

Typing it out made my heart ache, but knowledge is power and parents are simply not being provided with true, informed consent with regard to this procedure and it's absolutely appalling.

I read through the thread, and several people were insisting that the foreskin isn't cut during the Plastibell method, the foreskin is 'just retracted' to place the device, as if it was no big deal, and I recalled the words of the AAP (http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZRNBDTODD&sub_cat=108) with regard to forced, premature retraction of the foreskin: "Forcing the foreskin to retract before it is ready may severely harm the penis and cause pain, bleeding and tears in the skin."

Just retracting an infant's foreskin is incredibly traumatic. Of course, if your going to amputate the foreskin, who cares how much it's damaged in the process, right?

Jen

[jkate]

Mummy2Be:-) - I have sent you a pm :)

[*My Lil Blondie*]

oh my goodness how inhumane! i would never do that to my perfect little boy!

they are born with a foreskin for a reason!

[Caitlin's Mum]

[FONT=Courier New]
Circumcision performed during infancy disrupts the bonding process between child and mother. There are indications that the innate sense of trust in intimate human contact is inhibited or lost.

[/INDENT]

Oh please - No disruption of bonding here.

[~rambox~]

Oh please - No disruption of bonding here.

Yep i agree with you there was absolutly no disruptions here either. Bub was only away from me for 30mins.

[Mister Noodle]

My grandfather lived on little more than alcohol, cigarettes, saturated fats and salt his whole life, and lived 85 years with no heart problems whatsoever.

I guess that means they're not a risk for anyone else, either.

Good to know.

[~Emmylou~]

Circumcision performed during infancy disrupts the bonding process between child and mother. There are indications that the innate sense of trust in intimate human contact is inhibited or lost.



Yep i agree with you there was absolutly no disruptions here either. Bub was only away from me for 30mins.

Um I don't think it's the separation required to do the procedure that is being put forward as the source of possible bonding problems .... it's the procedure itself :confused: :(

[belinda]

sorry i have to add my son was done by dr terry russel and there were no cuts there as i witnessed the whole thing so how about that......

[sueliz]

Um I don't think it's the separation required to do the procedure that is being put forward as the source of possible bonding problems .... it's the procedure itself :confused: :(

I am actually more confused by the suggestion the procedure would cause this break of bond.
My DS is not circumcised as we had never even thought of having it done, but I would never be so presumptuous as to suggest this would mean my chances of having a better bond with my son have increased because of this decision....

ETA - I know no one on here has actually said they would have a better bond because they chose not to circ, but that seems to be the implication of the study this has come from.

[OJandMe]

sorry i have to add my son was done by dr terry russel and there were no cuts there as i witnessed the whole thing so how about that......

The boys were done by his partner Dr. Peter Loth, they were away from us for 5 mins MAX... we could have gone in with them.... but as the boys were done one at a time I chose to stay out with the one who wasn't being done rather than have him in the room too.
I've PM'd you Mummy2Be.

[Mister Noodle]

So how do they get past the frenulum without cutting it?

'Splain.

[Lirael]

whats that Mr Noodle?

[Mister Noodle]

Frenulum. The 'banjo string' of connective tissue that connects the inner layer of the foreskin to the underside of the glans.

Like the frenum that connects the your top lip to your gums, only a bit moreso.

If you wanted to attach a clamp to someone's top lip to amputate it flush with the gum line, the frenum would get in the way - I'd assume you'd need to cut through it.

[Lirael]

Frenulum. The 'banjo string' of connective tissue that connects the inner layer of the foreskin to the underside of the glans.

Like the frenum that connects the your top lip to your gums, only a bit moreso.

If you wanted to attach a clamp to someone's top lip to amputate it flush with the gum line, the frenum would get in the way - I'd assume you'd need to cut through it.

hmm, I know what you mean now. all I can say is ouuuucccchhh!!!!!:thumbsdown:

[shed]

I read this book called As Nature Made Him about two twins.

they had a slight urinary tract infection so they were both going to get circumcised. they took the first twin in and the operation was botched and he ended up with no penis. Its so tiny that it doesn't take much for it to go wrong.

Of course this hardly ever happens...

Anyway, they raised him as a girl (weird). he went back to being a boy eventually, but then he committed suicide not long ago. I believe his twin, who was raised as a boy (and wasn't circumcised after what went wrong), is also dead, but I can't remember how he died, possibly suicide as well. The other twins urinary infection cleared up a few days later.

It put me off, thats for sure. His name was David Reimer. More info here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2101678/

[MotherNurture]

Not trimming off the foreskin means that the entire foreskin is literally rotting off...google "necrotizing fasciitis" and take a peek at one of the most serious risks associated with the plastibell method...

"Radical debridement of the infected tissues was required, including the skin and Scarpa's fascia of the lower abdominal wall, inferior to the umbilicus, both inguinal areas, the entire scrotum, and skin of the penile shaft to the corona. The glans and corpora were not affected. The dissection left the spermatic cords and testicles exposed..."

[Yes, there's pictures.]

Is non-medically indicated, primarily social/cosmetic circumcision worth that happening to your baby?

Jen

[the_queen]

:crying: :crying: I've seen a documentary about David Reimer, and it was one of the saddest true stories I've ever seen. There were interviews with David, and towards the end of the making of the documentary, he suicided.
His suffering was unecessary.

[Ashleigh<3]

Oh please - No disruption of bonding here.

What I posted was merely my attempt at 'quoting' something from a wesbite based on information about circumcising.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Caitlin's Mum http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=1112561#post1112561)
Oh please - No disruption of bonding here.

Yep i agree with you there was absolutly no disruptions here either. Bub was only away from me for 30mins.

I'm sorry If I made it sound like I made this theory up. Like I said above. :) From a website.
It doesn't mean I believe this.

[Ashleigh<3]

I read this book called As Nature Made Him about two twins.

they had a slight urinary tract infection so they were both going to get circumcised. they took the first twin in and the operation was botched and he ended up with no penis. Its so tiny that it doesn't take much for it to go wrong.

Of course this hardly ever happens...

Anyway, they raised him as a girl (weird). he went back to being a boy eventually, but then he committed suicide not long ago. I believe his twin, who was raised as a boy (and wasn't circumcised after what went wrong), is also dead, but I can't remember how he died, possibly suicide as well. The other twins urinary infection cleared up a few days later.

It put me off, thats for sure. His name was David Reimer. More info here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2101678/

I remember hearing this too.

It is very sad. Didn't they do an interview where he felt so confused and said that he can't believe his parents had the heart to lie about something for so long.

It's just horrible :(

[Billy]

:crying: Shed and Queenie- that story is so incredibly sad... I feel so much for him.

My husband is all for circumcision- while I am dead against. To the point that I am so very glad my DD came out a girl so we didn't have the arguement...

However now I am armed with so much info (thankyou mothernurture :hugs:) hubby has seen it, not sure its completely changed his mind- but I know now what is involved, and exactly how I feel about it so it will NEVER happen.

I cannot imagine the guilt I would feel if I went through with a procedure to make someone else happy, that changed my sons anatomy without his consent.

When he is old enough, if he decided he wanted it done- then so be it. HIS choice. Until then, not my or my husbands choice to make.

:)

[Billy]

Oh and I also asked him if he thought it was necessary to check my DD's va-jayjay looked the same as mine, so that if it didn't we could surgically alter it to be so.... He looked at me like I was insane.... Proved my point really :)

[Pi31]

All methods involve cutting.

For the bell to be placed over the penis, the frenulum needs to be cut. Without cutting the frenulum, the cap would not be able to be slid over the glans far enough.
That aside, the foreskin at such a young age is tight and would involve ripping & pulling in every single case, as it is connected to the glans. It only becomes seperated between the ages of 6 - 11.

[link removed by moderator]

Even though this one involves much more cutting, all of them require cutting.
The fact that certain anaesthetics may be used is no consolation, because they wear off in less than 6 hours and pain would be experienced in all cases.

[sam's mum]

how bad does it have to be for a parent to say no????

[MotherNurture]

how bad does it have to be for a parent to say no????

Exactly, Jane.

...especially to cosmetic surgery that removes standard healthy, sensitive, functional tissue from the most intimate, sacred, sexual part of a non-consenting child, risking things like hemmorhage, infection, and death---and is not recommended by any medical organization in the world?

Jen

[mum33]

the more i read the more i think this should be illegal. i dont want to start anything here but its justs so wrong and i dont think i will ever see how or why it would be a good idea. i think i better leave this thread alone now as its really making me :crying:

[*My Lil Blondie*]

I read this book called As Nature Made Him about two twins.

they had a slight urinary tract infection so they were both going to get circumcised. they took the first twin in and the operation was botched and he ended up with no penis. Its so tiny that it doesn't take much for it to go wrong.

Of course this hardly ever happens...

Anyway, they raised him as a girl (weird). he went back to being a boy eventually, but then he committed suicide not long ago. I believe his twin, who was raised as a boy (and wasn't circumcised after what went wrong), is also dead, but I can't remember how he died, possibly suicide as well. The other twins urinary infection cleared up a few days later.

It put me off, thats for sure. His name was David Reimer. More info here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2101678/


i have this book:crying: the things that doctor did :mad:

i had no idea he suicided thats so sad!

[Ashleigh<3]

the more i read the more i think this should be illegal. i dont want to start anything here but its justs so wrong and i dont think i will ever see how or why it would be a good idea. i think i better leave this thread alone now as its really making me :crying:

It makes me sad too :(
I think it should only be legal if an infection occurs.
I know infections can happen to some little boys. But to me, that's when parent's should see a medical professional.

I hope people who do choose to circumcise their kids, do it for an infection related problem, not just because it's 'fashionable'?:confused: :confused:

[MotherNurture]

It makes me sad too :(
I think it should only be legal if an infection occurs.
I know infections can happen to some little boys. But to me, that's when parent's should see a medical professional.

I believe in gender equality & genital integrity.

ALL children-boys & girls alike-have in inherent right to whole, unmolested(*1) genitals barring true, medical indications for surgical intervention.

Considering this, I weigh the reasoning for male circumcision against whether FGM/C (female genital mutilation/cutting) would be acceptable under the same circumstances.

If a female child aquired a UTI or yeast infection, how would it be treated? Antibiotics or an antifungal...or, would doctors start cutting away at her labia and clitoral hood?

Amputative surgery should be a last resort for genital ailments in either gender. There are virtually always safer, less invasive, less permanently damaging ways to treat such conditions.

Jen

*mo·lest (m?-l?st') Pronunciation Key
tr.v. mo·lest·ed, mo·lest·ing, mo·lests
1. To disturb, interfere with, or annoy.
2. To subject to unwanted or improper sexual activity.

[Note: Regardless of whether or not there's a sexual motivation, messing with a child's genitals, except with a medical indication or to assist with basic hygiene, is generally considered unacceptable/inappropriate/violating. For instance, inserting a rectal thermometer to check a baby's temperature if there's concern regarding possible fever/illness is appropriate, but inserting another similarly-sized object without a medical purpose/indication is not appropriate---even though it may not cause lasting harm. No medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumicision---which is done for social/cultural/cosmetic/religious reasons.]

[Billy]

MotherNurture- thank you for always being so clear and concise in your explanations. Everything you say makes sense, without being overrun with emotion (as I usually am on the subject :o) Thanks to you and your very helpful info, it seems hubby is coming around to the idea :yes: :)

When he is home from work next, I will be getting him to read this thread too... :hugs:

[aaacameron]

Hi, I ha my son done as all our family and my husband supported it. I really did not know. These days they tell you they will be a minority but most people I talk to have had it done. Either because of infection or just chose to. My mistake was not having it done in the first 8 weeks as at this stage they cap it and just take a nick of skin apparently. As we missed this he could not be done until 6 months and it was horrible. I say I just wanted to cry for him. It took a week to get over it and I think I cursed everybody for talking me into it. BUT all in all I am so glad I have had it done now. I suggest have it done earlier and not later like I did. Good luck.

[AquaDevil78]

I wouldn't do it for the sake of your husband, plus the fact i am of the belief that ultimately it is the child's decision ie: when older. I know with our son due soon, unless there is a medicaj reason as to why he should be circumsised, then we are not doing it.. he can choose to do this later in life should he wish.

I dont believe it is anyone's right to decide such a thing on behalf of someone. Im not trying to be nasty or anything, just my view on the subject. :yes:

[MotherNurture]

Hi, I ha my son done as all our family and my husband supported it. I really did not know. These days they tell you they will be a minority but most people I talk to have had it done. Either because of infection or just chose to. My mistake was not having it done in the first 8 weeks as at this stage they cap it and just take a nick of skin apparently. As we missed this he could not be done until 6 months and it was horrible. I say I just wanted to cry for him.

The chances of a male needing to be circumcised for medical reasons is just 1%.

If a little girl gets a UTI ora yeast infection, would a sane or ethical doctor suggest cutting normal anatomical bits, like her labia or clitoral hood off to 'cure' her, or would antibiotics or antifungals be prescribed?

The methods of circumcision for newborns and older babies are identical: gomco, mogen, or plastibell. You can google any of those words with "circumcision" or "pictures" or "video" for more information.

Jen

[Shanaynay]

But hubby wonts it done either way so i gotta respect his decision!!
No you don't :confused: If he said "hey, I'm just taking my son out the back to permanently modify him, perhaps chop off a body part..." would you respect that decision??? Because that is what he wants to pay someone else to do!


Who has the right to decide in the end the mother or the Father!!!??
Your SON has the right. So if he wants to get circumcised, let him go for it, his body :) But obviously that will be a few years ;)


Oh and I also asked him if he thought it was necessary to check my DD's va-jayjay looked the same as mine, so that if it didn't we could surgically alter it to be so.... He looked at me like I was insane.... Proved my point really
:thumbsup: Good one!

[Ashleigh<3]

I know it may sound sexist, but after giving a boy his initial right to decide wether or not to be circumcised...

I come next, as a mother, I say no.

Even if DF said yes, I'd say nope, and there would be no cutting.
Yes, that may sound a bit demanding, but I carried and nurtured my baby for 9 months + two weeks.
I'm not about to let any form of cosmetic modification begin.

[Mummaof2]

I would be looking right into the pros and cons before going ahead with it and telling your husband bout the pros and cons.

I spent almost 3mths before having DS researching all the pros and cons and what could happen if i did or didnt have it done.

And i decided against it.

[viperpt]

Okey after a long debate with hubby weather or not to Circumsise our baby if we have a boy i have given into him and we are going to get it done. I just wont to no what the actual procedure is my SIL said they just put a cap on the end there is no slicing or cutting but i cant imagine thats correct so if anyone knows how it is really done that would be great !!!




THANKS


Coming from a mother who's son has already had it done they do put a cap on it and there is no slicing with a knife. they dont just make you show up and take it off. they have a consultation with you and give you a numbing cream to rub on it and wrap it in plastic wrap before you go. It must of worked because my son was asleep through the whole process. Dont be worried,you will work yourself up over it when it really isnt a big deal. I know exacticly how you feel my son has never had any problems with it. If You wait to have your son done when he is older it will hurt alot more and also cost alot more he will have to take time of school/ work I removed this from a website.

Is it easier to care for the penis circumcised or uncircumsised?

The circumsised penis is generally easier to keep clean. An uncircumcised boy should be taught to clean his penis with care. Cleaning of the penis is done by gently, not forcibly, retracting the foreskin. The foreskin should be retracted only to the point where resistance is met. Full retraction of the foreskin may not be possible until the age of 3 or more. What is the relationship between circumcision and urinary tract infections?
The incidence of urinary tract infections in male infants appears to be lower when circumcision is done in the newborn period. It was first reported in 1982 that males predominate among infants with urinary tract infections (whereas females predominate later in life) and that about 95% of the infected infant boys had not been circumcised. Studies in US Army hospitals involving more than 200,000 infant boys confirmed greater than a tenfold increase in urinary tract infections in uncircumcised male infants compared to those who had been circumcised.
What might this relationship between circumcision and urinary tract infections mean?
Circumcision prevents the growth of bacteria under the foreskin and this, in turn, protects male infants against urinary tract infection. The high incidence of urinary tract infections in uncircumcised boys has also been found to be accompanied by an increased incidence of other significant infections such as bacteremia (bacterial infection of the bloodstream) and meningitis (infection of the covering of the brain). The protective effect of circumcision may thus extend to a number of infectious diseases.
What is the relationship between circumcision and sexually transmitted diseases?
There is a higher risk of gonorrhea and inflammation of the urethra (the tube that carries the urine from the bladder outside) in uncircumcised men. It has also been reported that other sexually transmitted diseases (such as chancroid, syphilis, human papillomavirus, and herpes simplex virus type 2 infection) are more frequent in uncircumcised men.
What might this connection between circumcision and sexually transmitted diseases mean?
Circumcision prevents the growth under the foreskin of the agents that cause sexually transmitted diseases. Removal of the foreskin may provide some measure of protection from these diseases to males and their mates.
What is the correlation between sexually transmitted diseases and cancer of the cervix?

There is a strong connection between sexually transmitted diseases and cancer of the cervix. Human papillomavirus types 16 and 18 are strongly associated with cancer of the cervix. Herpes simplex virus type 2 has also been associated with cervical cancer.
The strongest predisposing factors in cervical cancer are a history of intercourse at an early age and multiple sexual partners. Cervical cancer is virtually unknown in nuns and virgins. What might this relationship between lack of circumcision and cervical cancer mean?
Circumcision protects the mate from cancer of the cervix by removing the foreskin which harbors sexually transmitted viruses that promote this common form of female cancer.
What is the relationship between circumcision and cancer of the penis?
The predicted lifetime risk of cancer of the penis in an uncircumcised man is 1 in 600 in the US. Cancer of the penis carries a mortality rate as high as 25%. This cancer occurs almost exclusively in uncircumcised men. In five major research studies, no man who had been circumcised as a newborn developed cancer of the penis. Human papillomavirus types 16 and 18, which are sexually transmitted, are involved in cancer of the penis.

you can check out the website yourself
www.medicinenet.com/circumcision_the_medical_pros_and_cons/article.htm (http://www.medicinenet.com/circumcision_the_medical_pros_and_cons/article.htm)

but you cant argue with that

[bekkyboo]

In the interest of fairness and Erin getting the best (and complete) information.... I think she should also look up the Cons or circ - as the above post seems to be only Pros...

When you and your DP have ALL the information Erin, maybe then you can make the best decision, The best decision for your child.

[viperpt]

In the interest of fairness and Erin getting the best (and complete) information.... I think she should also look up the CONS or circ - as the above post seems to be only PROS...

When you and your DP have ALL the information Erin, maybe then you can make the best decision.

Im merely stating the pros because all that most threads seem to give are cons.even in this post if you weighed up pro vs con my post is about the only one that is actually pro I have read other threads and they all say the same thing con con con con con..... how can she base her opinion on that?

[bekkyboo]

Im merely stating the pros because all that most threads seem to give are cons.even in this post if you weighed up pro vs con my post is about the only one that is actually pro I have read other threads and they all say the same thing con con con con con..... how can she base her opinion on that?
The majority of posts in this thread are opinion based. You have used a link to a site to back up your opinion, although you have only listed the pros from that site.

In my post, i was merely saying to Erin that she should do the reaseach herself, to ensure that she gets all the information that she needs to form her own opinion for her own child. I would hate to think she would make a huge unaltering decision like this, based on incomplete information is all.

I do realise that most opnion in here is con - but Erin has to make this decision herself, as she, her DP and their child are the one that have to live with it - not us. We can help by giving opinions, but i wanted Erin to remember that all opinions on here will be biased one way or the other.

[Billy]

Well said B :thumbsup:

[viperpt]

The majority of posts in this thread are opinion based. You have used a link to a site to back up your opinion, although you have only listed the pros from that site.

In my post, i was merely saying to Erin that she should do the reaseach herself, to ensure that she gets all the information that she needs to form her own opinion for her own child. I would hate to think she would make a huge unaltering decision like this, based on incomplete information is all.

I do realise that most opnion in here is con - but Erin has to make this decision herself, as she, her DP and their child are the one that have to live with it - not us. We can help by giving opinions, but i wanted Erin to remember that all opinions on here will be biased one way or the other.

Ofcourse... I respect your opinion on this. I wasnt meaning to say your wrong I actually agree with what you were saying. I just wanted to claryify that she has only been able to read mostly cons. I absolutely agree with her getting as much reasearch into the subject and making the best decision based on her own opininons. Just as long as she knew that there were actually 2 sides to the story and didnt base her decision on opinions that she hasnt looked into on both sides. She could very well agree with it and she could very well disagree

[MotherNurture]

Coming from a mother who's son has already had it done they do put a cap on it and there is no slicing with a knife. they dont just make you show up and take it off. they have a consultation with you and give you a numbing cream to rub on it and wrap it in plastic wrap before you go. It must of worked because my son was asleep through the whole process. Dont be worried,you will work yourself up over it when it really isnt a big deal. I know exacticly how you feel my son has never had any problems with it. If You wait to have your son done when he is older it will hurt alot more and also cost alot more he will have to take time of school/ work I removed this from a website...

There is no "cap" method of circumcision. Plastibell, perhaps? There's an entire thread on that method, here:

Plastibell Circumcision: Information, Links, & Resources (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=69138)

The cream was probably EMLA, which is a local anesthetic a.) Not approved for infants or mucousal skin and, b.) Only numbs superficially, and does not eliminate pain during the most invasive steps of the procedure, like forceful separation of the glans & foreskin with a blunt probe or scissors, and clamping.

EMLA topical anaesthetic for neonatal circumcision: WARNINGS (http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/EMLA/)

Regarding the 'now or never' mentality, only 1% of intact boys will ever need to be circumcised for medical reasons.

There are many other advantages to avoiding routine infant circumcising and instead only doing it in the rare instance that it later becomes medically necessary or if he decides he prefers it for his own penis as an adult...

-Adults provide informed consent. Babies have NO choice.

-Babies are typically unwrapped, exposed, and strapped down spread-eagle to a rigid, molded plastic board.

-Circumcision may interrupt bonding and may negatively impact breastfeeding success. Babies may be very sleepy and difficult to rouse for feeding after circumcision. Tummy-to-tummy breastfeeding positions may be uncomfortable, increasing fussiness and making getting a correct latch challenging. This may in turn increase the risk of sore nipples and a cascade effect of other nursing problems.

-A baby foreskin is fused to the glans, much like your fingernail is attached to your finger. One of the first (and most painful) steps of an infant circumcision involves forcibly separating the two structures-literally, tearing them apart. An adult's foreskin is usually able to retract easily and comfortably.

-Adults can have general anesthesia, thereby experiencing a truly "pain free" operation. At best, newborns get local anesthesia...at worst, nothing at all. Studies have shown neonatal circumcision pain has long-term effects on pain tolerance.

-Adults can be provided medications to prevent erections during the healing process. Babies are not offered this.

-Adults can have "good" pain medications post-op. The most an infant gets is Tylenol.

-An adult can choose the exact 'style' of circumcision he prefers...loose, tight...high, low...frenulum/no frenulum...etc. Babies are circumcised by a random methods removing imprecise and highly variable amounts of skin.

-Adult penises are BIGGER. There is a lot more room for error with infant circumcision.

-Adults will not normally be healing in a 'diaper environment', exposing their surgical wound to urine and feces. This also means adults who are circumcised will likely have a far lower risk of Meatal Stenosis. The risk for babies is 9-10%.

-Adults normally have more developed and resistant immune systems and if an infection did occur it would be less dangerous to an adult then a newborn. MRSA-Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus-is rampant in medical facilities and is frequently fatal in neonates; circumcision creates an unnecessary wound and entry point for such an infection.

-Babies are guarenteed a lifetime of keratinization (drying, thickening, and progressive desensitization of the head of penis)

-A baby’s entire blood volume could be contained in a soda can; testing for blood disorders prior to infant circumcision is not routine. An adult would be more likely to be aware if he had a condition like hemophilia (which primarily occurs in males). An undiagnosed hemophiliac newborn may hemorrhage/bleed to death during or following a procedure like circumcision.


you can check out the website yourself
www.medicinenet.com/circumcision_the_medical_pros_and_cons/article.htm (http://www.medicinenet.com/circumcision_the_medical_pros_and_cons/article.htm)

but you cant argue with that

In addition to editing the list to only provide the pros, this article has no referrences, and hasn't been updated since 2003.

Parents should really be asking, "Do the potential benefits outweigh the known, documented risks?" The answer, according to every major medical organization in the world is a resounding, "No."

Jen

[bekkyboo]

Thanks Jen... :D Erin now has Pros and Cons!

[au01]

Thanks again Jen for your invaluable information you have provided.:thumbsup:
I am sooo glad I have 3 girls and never had to deal with this, personally I think I would have to wait until he was older and let him make the descision.

I think more people have this operation performed with the mentality being "it is the done thing" rather than to question the ethics.

I wonder how many people would consider female circumcision??
And is that legal in Australia?
I wouldn't think so.
So what is the difference, why is it legal/ok to perform male circumcision???

[MotherNurture]

Your welcome. :)

I agree, most circumcisions are done for cultural (or, familial) conformity, without consideration of the ethics of cutting part of another human being's (a minor child's) primary sex organ off.

One of the reasons so many places have criminalized FGM is because of the hype the most severe forms have received. Another reason is because female genital cutting never caught on like male circumcision did in so many places; those who practice FGM/C have always been in a very tiny minority, making it easy to ban by an overwhelming majority. KWIM?

Most people don't realize that the medical term for foreskin is "prepuce" and that the corresponding, equivalent part of the female anatomy is the clitoral hood. They also don't realize that the most common type of FGM/C is sunna circumcision, which removes the female prepuce to expose the clitoris.

Any government that professes gender equality should protect children of both genders from forced, non-medically indicated genital cutting.

Jen

[Mummy2Noah]

how bad does it have to be for a parent to say no????

Can i just reasure that this is not an attack against me????? Am i the parent your talking about..... Sorry if i have misunderstood

[MotherNurture]

Can i just reasure that this is not an attack against me????? Am i the parent your talking about..... Sorry if i have misunderstood

I could be wrong, but I think it was a valid question as opposed to a personal attack...but, I see where you're coming from because the question relates directly to the thread's title.

It seemed, in your OP, you acknowledged that circumcision is, at least to some degree, 'bad'.

I took the question to mean: How serious do the risks have to be, how intense the pain, how great the sexual loss in order for a parent to refuse it for a completely healthy, normal child?

If we sense, on some level, circumcision is painful, unnecessary, and harmful/damaging, why does it deserve our consideration?

Jen

[bekkyboo]

I would like to make this point again tho...

This is Erin and Marks decision, She should not in anyway berated into either way of thinking, or belittled for her choices. This is their decision to make, and a big one at that.

Erin, Hunny... I hope that you get the info you need to support which ever way you go. But make sure you and Mark (He has just as much right in the decision as you do) are happy with it.

[Mummy2Noah]

Thanx Bekky HUn!!!:hugs:

I just feel like this thread has gone crazy i was simply asking a question of is it that bad to the parents that have had there babies done and now i feel like ppl are Attacking me IYKWIM!!!!

If it was a Question not an Attack fair enough but i feel as if it was an Attack against me!!!
Thank you for your support babe!!:)

[Lastcenturymum]

Mummy2be, he needs to have a good reason to want it done. If he can't explain it then he shouldn't allow it. Plus he will have to have darn good reasons to give a Dr to have it done. Surely not the old 'so he'll be like his Dad argument' my mum tried to spin me:eek: Does she reckon they go around comparing?!!:laughing:

Having said all that - we HAD to have our son circumcised at 6 years old. He had such a small opening and the foreskin wouldn't retract - it was terrible to see the discomfort he was in at the time it gave him trouble and I have to say seeing a 6 year old recover wasn't pleasant but we had a brilliant Dr who tried everything else first. he treated our son like a 'grown up' in that he walked him to theater ('you are to big to need a trolley)' etc. Was a horrible week, but worth it in the long run.

My dad had to have it done at 21 and said it was hell.

It's a personal decision, but has to be made by both of you.

[MotherNurture]

Sorry you felt like it was attack. :hugs:

I wish you and your lil' bub the best with this decision.

Jen

[Mummy2Noah]

Sorry you felt like it was attack. :hugs:

I wish you and your lil' bub the best with this decision.

Jen


:hugs: Thanks Jen!!!!!
I really apprieciate the information im being given by everyone pros and cons!!! It is helping me and my hubby decide what is best!!!!

[Mummy2Noah]

Mummy2be, he needs to have a good reason to want it done. If he can't explain it then he shouldn't allow it. Plus he will have to have darn good reasons to give a Dr to have it done.

Thats the thing though in Broken Hill it is a standard thing that is done they give you a referal when your in Hospital to go to Adelaide and get it done!!! 8/10 Boys in Broken hill get it done thats why i dont understand how its so different everywere else !!!

[bekkyboo]

Thanx Bekky HUn!!!:hugs:

I just feel like this thread has gone crazy i was simply asking a question of is it that bad to the parents that have had there babies done and now i feel like ppl are Attacking me IYKWIM!!!!

If it was a Question not an Attack fair enough but i feel as if it was an Attack against me!!!
Thank you for your support babe!!:)
Not a problem sweety. I was worried about it seeming to be a personal attack to (although i know that no one ment it to be), its just such an emotive topic.

If Mark wants it done, he has every right to say so. But he should have a good reason, and so should you for not. Just talk about it alot, and clearly think through it.

Its such a hard thing being a parent, we should all support each other no matter what - and leave our prejudices at the door.

[Mister Noodle]

Dont be worried,you will work yourself up over it when it really isn't a big deal.


Says someone who still has all their body parts.


Is it easier to care for the penis circumcised or uncircumsised?

The circumsised penis is generally easier to keep clean. An uncircumcised boy should be taught to clean his penis with care. Cleaning of the penis is done by gently, not forcibly, retracting the foreskin. The foreskin should be retracted only to the point where resistance is met. Full retraction of the foreskin may not be possible until the age of 3 or more.


Translation: 2 seconds in the bath/shower, about as much effort as 'shooting your cuffs' to look at your watch.

Has anyone ever tried to prevent a boy from playing with it in the bath? Because that's all it takes.



What is the relationship between circumcision and urinary tract infections?
The incidence of urinary tract infections in male infants appears to be lower when circumcision is done in the newborn period. It was first reported in 1982 that males predominate among infants with urinary tract infections (whereas females predominate later in life) and that about 95% of the infected infant boys had not been circumcised. Studies in US Army hospitals involving more than 200,000 infant boys confirmed greater than a tenfold increase in urinary tract infections in uncircumcised male infants compared to those who had been circumcised.
What might this relationship between circumcision and urinary tract infections mean?
Circumcision prevents the growth of bacteria under the foreskin and this, in turn, protects male infants against urinary tract infection. The high incidence of urinary tract infections in uncircumcised boys has also been found to be accompanied by an increased incidence of other significant infections such as bacteremia (bacterial infection of the bloodstream) and meningitis (infection of the covering of the brain). The protective effect of circumcision may thus extend to a number of infectious diseases.


If these statistics are reliable, then the effect should correlate across entire populations. Routine circumcision is virtually unknown in most of western europe, around 50% in America, and close to ubiquitous in the middle east and northern Africa.

Where are the stats showing this correlation?



What might this connection between circumcision and sexually transmitted diseases mean?
Circumcision prevents the growth under the foreskin of the agents that cause sexually transmitted diseases. Removal of the foreskin may provide some measure of protection from these diseases to males and their mates.


And what 'agents' would they be? Viral infections don't give a damn about protected environments.



What is the correlation between sexually transmitted diseases and cancer of the cervix?

There is a strong connection between sexually transmitted diseases and cancer of the cervix. Human papillomavirus types 16 and 18 are strongly associated with cancer of the cervix. Herpes simplex virus type 2 has also been associated with cervical cancer.
The strongest predisposing factors in cervical cancer are a history of intercourse at an early age and multiple sexual partners. Cervical cancer is virtually unknown in nuns and virgins. What might this relationship between lack of circumcision and cervical cancer mean?
Circumcision protects the mate from cancer of the cervix by removing the foreskin which harbors sexually transmitted viruses that promote this common form of female cancer.


The epithelial cells that are (slightly) more prone to HPV infection are also present in the vulva, yet I don't see them advocating radical amputation of female genitalia.

The same cell type is also present in the cuticles of the fingers, and other fun locations. Are you going to cut those off, too?

There's no point removing one vulnerability if there's a dozen others that you do nothing about.

And - guess what - there's a perfectly good vaccine that renders the whole question moot.

Disingenuous scare-mongering, the lot of it.

Has anyone noticed that all these justifications are post-hoc? That is, they're there to back up an existing wish to circumcise. This should tell you a lot. It's an old cultural tradition, nothing more - and it's had its day, along with foot-binding.

[Mummy2Noah]

Mr Noodle I thank you for your advice and your information you have given me its been really helpful for me to understand and be as Educated as i can be. However this isnt a debate or an argument it is only a thread for me to get as much information on BOTH Cons and Pros.....Each person to there own opinion!!! Thank You

[au01]

By now I think you have (more than) enough information to show DH.
Maybe make an appointment with you GP and ask him/her what their opinion is.
It great to see you gathering as much info as you can prior to making a decision.
Good luck with it.:fingerscrossed:

[sam's mum]

Can i just reasure that this is not an attack against me????? Am i the parent your talking about..... Sorry if i have misunderstood

Sorry I haven't responded sooner, I have only just caught up on my reading.

I didn't mean this as an attack against anyone, the title of the thread just got me thinking, that's all. If the question is "how bad is it?" I guess another question is "how bad does it have to be before it makes a difference?"

I just wanted to give people something else to think about. To consider where they put their line in the sand to say - this much, but no more.

[mysonroger]

I did many times i told him that i would have nothing to do with it and he was just like good i dont care its my son as well and its getting done he feels so strongley about it i dont understand why!!!! He normally is very easy to talk out of things but this is just not gunna happen.. And hes got all the support from my family and his own im the only one that thinks its wrong!!!:(


sorry but your DH sounds a bit insecure about doodles. .... seen as you both can't agree, why don't you ask him for a compromise and ask him to leave it until your son can make up his own mind about it.

after all...what's the hurry???

[mysonroger]

There is no "cap" method of circumcision. Plastibell, perhaps? There's an entire thread on that method, here:

Plastibell Circumcision: Information, Links, & Resources (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=69138)

The cream was probably EMLA, which is a local anesthetic a.) Not approved for infants or mucousal skin and, b.) Only numbs superficially, and does not eliminate pain during the most invasive steps of the procedure, like forceful separation of the glans & foreskin with a blunt probe or scissors, and clamping.

EMLA topical anaesthetic for neonatal circumcision: WARNINGS (http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/EMLA/)

Regarding the 'now or never' mentality, only 1% of intact boys will ever need to be circumcised for medical reasons.

There are many other advantages to avoiding routine infant circumcising and instead only doing it in the rare instance that it later becomes medically necessary or if he decides he prefers it for his own penis as an adult...

-Adults provide informed consent. Babies have NO choice.

-Babies are typically unwrapped, exposed, and strapped down spread-eagle to a rigid, molded plastic board.

-Circumcision may interrupt bonding and may negatively impact breastfeeding success. Babies may be very sleepy and difficult to rouse for feeding after circumcision. Tummy-to-tummy breastfeeding positions may be uncomfortable, increasing fussiness and making getting a correct latch challenging. This may in turn increase the risk of sore nipples and a cascade effect of other nursing problems.

-A baby foreskin is fused to the glans, much like your fingernail is attached to your finger. One of the first (and most painful) steps of an infant circumcision involves forcibly separating the two structures-literally, tearing them apart. An adult's foreskin is usually able to retract easily and comfortably.

-Adults can have general anesthesia, thereby experiencing a truly "pain free" operation. At best, newborns get local anesthesia...at worst, nothing at all. Studies have shown neonatal circumcision pain has long-term effects on pain tolerance.

-Adults can be provided medications to prevent erections during the healing process. Babies are not offered this.

-Adults can have "good" pain medications post-op. The most an infant gets is Tylenol.

-An adult can choose the exact 'style' of circumcision he prefers...loose, tight...high, low...frenulum/no frenulum...etc. Babies are circumcised by a random methods removing imprecise and highly variable amounts of skin.

-Adult penises are BIGGER. There is a lot more room for error with infant circumcision.

-Adults will not normally be healing in a 'diaper environment', exposing their surgical wound to urine and feces. This also means adults who are circumcised will likely have a far lower risk of Meatal Stenosis. The risk for babies is 9-10%.

-Adults normally have more developed and resistant immune systems and if an infection did occur it would be less dangerous to an adult then a newborn. MRSA-Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus-is rampant in medical facilities and is frequently fatal in neonates; circumcision creates an unnecessary wound and entry point for such an infection.

-Babies are guarenteed a lifetime of keratinization (drying, thickening, and progressive desensitization of the head of penis)

-A baby’s entire blood volume could be contained in a soda can; testing for blood disorders prior to infant circumcision is not routine. An adult would be more likely to be aware if he had a condition like hemophilia (which primarily occurs in males). An undiagnosed hemophiliac newborn may hemorrhage/bleed to death during or following a procedure like circumcision.



In addition to editing the list to only provide the pros, this article has no referrences, and hasn't been updated since 2003.

Parents should really be asking, "Do the potential benefits outweigh the known, documented risks?" The answer, according to every major medical organization in the world is a resounding, "No."

Jen



i commend you on your post......