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Miaow
07-02-2007, 09:08
Just wondering what people feel about this?


Doctors ready to defy law to speed death of ill newborns


Clara Pirani, Medical reporter
February 07, 2007
ONE in three medical specialists is prepared to break the law by using painkillers or sedatives to hasten the death of a baby born with a severe life-threatening disability.

An anonymous survey of neonatologists in Australia and New Zealand also found almost half were willing to use medication to speed up death in critically ill newborns for whom further treatment was considered hopeless.


Peter Barr, a senior physician at the Children's Hospital at Westmead, Sydney, who conducted the study, said the desire to alleviate a baby's pain and suffering sometimes outweighed doctors' concerns about the law.


"This was a self-reporting questionnaire where neonatologists responded to hypothetical situations, so we don't know exactly what they do in practice, but we know what their preferences are," Dr Barr said. "They were presenting their views, knowing that they were not lawful."


While neonatologists commonly withdraw or withhold treatment in newborns with a terminal disease or severe disability, it is illegal to use medication to hasten a person's death.


However, doctors reported that they would prefer to use painkillers or sedation to hasten death, rather than withholding oxygen or nutrients.


"For example, if further medical treatment has been deemed therapeutically non-beneficial or overly burdensome, then neonatologists may consider it more compassionate and humane to purposefully hasten death unlawfully with analgesia-sedation than, for instance, to forgo gastric tube feeding, which may be lawful," the study found.


"Hence neonatologists seem to support the moral notion that it is sometimes 'better to kill than let die' - even though the former is unlawful and seems not to respect the 'sanctity of life'." Dr Barr also discovered there was a link between doctors' personal fear of death and their ethical beliefs.


"Neonatologists who said that they were prepared to hasten death when death was inevitable had a greater of fear of death than those who thought that it was unacceptable," Dr Barr said.


"Fear of the dying process and premature death may unconsciously motivate these neonatologists to do what they can to ease the baby's suffering and hasten their death, and that takes priority over the legal implications."


University of Queensland professor of medical ethics Malcolm Parker told The Australian doctors who chose to break the law were motivated by compassion.


"It's never easy for clinicians faced with that situation but I'm sure they feel compelled in very severe cases to do what they believe is the most humane thing," he said.


"In that sense, ethically they may not find it a difficult decision to make but I'm sure the idea of breaking the law would not be easy."


The study, published in the Archives of Disease in Childhood, asked doctors to respond to hypothetical scenarios and measured their responses against a "fear of death" scale.


In an accompanying editorial, Martin Ward Platt, a leading neonatology researcher from the Royal Victoria Infirmary in Newcastle, England, said the medical profession needed to acknowledge that doctors' attitudes to death could influence their treatment of patients.


"Barr's paper shows us that in relation to neonatal death and dying, doctors' fear, or lack of it, matters," Dr Ward Platt said. "It matters because it can influence clinical judgments. Recognising this influence is an important aspect of self-knowledge."


Professor Parker said the debate about assisted death, which is usually focused on terminally ill adults, would in the future examine the treatment of seriously ill babies.


"In Holland, where euthanasia is legal for adults, there is certainly a strong movement towards making active assistance to die legal in the neonatal cases, so I think we will see a gradual movement in that direction."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21184501-2702,00.html

hippee
07-02-2007, 10:08
I'm all for it..If it were my child I would want a merciful , humain death rather than suffering and confusion.:crying:

V8
07-02-2007, 10:19
Either way it's a horrible thing for anyone to have to be involved in. If it were my child i would rather that they died under sedation than have oxogen or food deprivation.

TeamAwesome
07-02-2007, 10:32
I can see why this option would be a better option as opposed to withholding nutrients from the bub. I personally don't agree with killing anyone but I can see why a family would like this choice as opposed to the long painful death...
as the article said it wasn't that the dr's are ready to defy the laws its just what they'd prefer to do as opposed to witholding nutrients...

Jinglebells
07-02-2007, 10:53
I'm actually all for the docs giving little ones sedatives over them depriving nutrients or oxygen, I can't figure out why it would be legal to make someone suffer by denying them the necessities of life and have them suffer a possible slow death rather than make them comfortable during the process, it would be less stressful for the families too knowing that their loved one would not be in any pain and suffering unnessicarily

Miaow
07-02-2007, 11:12
I agree that this option would be alot better than depriving oxygen or nutrients - A painless option is of course a lot better than a long drawn out painful death...

When my mum was dying they stopped giving her fluids/food also if i remember rightly, it took her about a week to die i think from when they stopped them :crying:

TwoBlue
07-02-2007, 11:20
I struggle with this for three reasons....

1) My own son was a NICU baby

2) I dont believe we have any right to take life at any point (but then the "keeping alive" issue comes in here a bit also iykwim?)

3) When my DS was in NICU there was another little boy there who had been there for 7 months already :(
A nurse (who we knew as a friend outside of the hospital) told me that they felt frustrated because the child WAS going to die and the mother refused any means of "helping" ie: taking him off life support.
A few months ago I asked the nurse friend what ended up happening to the little boy as he so often came to mind and you know what.. he lived ! he is now at home with his family and fine ! A miracle :yelclap:

OM
07-02-2007, 11:25
3) When my DS was in NICU there was another little boy there who had been there for 7 months already :(
A nurse (who we knew as a friend outside of the hospital) told me that they felt frustrated because the child WAS going to die and the mother refused any means of "helping" ie: taking him off life support.
A few months ago I asked the nurse friend what ended up happening to the little boy as he so often came to mind and you know what.. he lived ! he is now at home with his family and fine ! A miracle :yelclap:

Oh that is lovely to hear.:thumbsup:

TwoBlue
07-02-2007, 11:27
Isnt it ! I cried when I heard.. the mother was so faithful and was there every day even though the boy was one of twins, she breast fed one twin at home and expressed for the other, she bought the EBM in for him every day.... wow, what a woman hey :thumbsup:

Miaow
07-02-2007, 11:32
When my DS was in NICU there was another little boy there who had been there for 7 months already :(
A nurse (who we knew as a friend outside of the hospital) told me that they felt frustrated because the child WAS going to die and the mother refused any means of "helping" ie: taking him off life support.
A few months ago I asked the nurse friend what ended up happening to the little boy as he so often came to mind and you know what.. he lived ! he is now at home with his family and fine ! A miracle :yelclap:

It's great he's ok now:)

I think the docs would have to be VERY sure that there was absolutely no chance of the child living for something like this to be done - then again as that shows there are miracles :)

This worries me also - From the article..


For example, if further medical treatment has been deemed therapeutically non-beneficial or overly burdensome

I'm actually wondering how a treatment can be considered overly burdensome - If the child would survive due to it - then it isn't to them in the long run, but maybe to a hospital it is in cost factors/time - which therefore means it isnt right to then let a child die for that reason (hopefully that made sense)

Mister Noodle
07-02-2007, 11:48
I think it's the height of hypocrisy to allow a child to starve or suffocate, but not to allow its passing to be made swift and painless. What exactly is the thinking there?

I mean, if someone starved or suffocated a healthy child, they'd be morally and legally guilty of murder, just the same as if they'd actively killed it - so they're just as involved whichever route they take.

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for euthanasia. I don't want to linger in pain myself, and I'd never force that on anyone else. If I forced it on a dog, I'd be arrested for cruelty.

I just think it's horribly misguided for the law to demand that the process of euthanasia cause the maximum amount of possible suffering. If the doctors have the courage to make it quick and painless (and believe you me, it would take a lot), they shouldn't be punished for doing so.

kiah
07-02-2007, 11:57
I heard in on the radio this morning and i felt sad:gloomy:

~rambox~
07-02-2007, 11:58
I'm all for it..If it were my child I would want a merciful , humain death rather than suffering and confusion.:crying:

I totally agree. If we can do this for animals why not humans

Ana Gram
07-02-2007, 11:58
If it was my child, I would want them to go for easing her pain.

hippee
07-02-2007, 12:20
It's great he's ok now:)

I think the docs would have to be VERY sure that there was absolutely no chance of the child living for something like this to be done - then again as that shows there are miracles :)

This worries me also - From the article..


I'm actually wondering how a treatment can be considered overly burdensome - If the child would survive due to it - then it isn't to them in the long run, but maybe to a hospital it is in cost factors/time - which therefore means it isnt right to then let a child die for that reason (hopefully that made sense)

I think what they mean is if they give the child treatment that itself is very intrusive and painful etc... for the outcome to be a severely disabled child that may only live a few more months/years still in pain.

Duchessa
07-02-2007, 12:34
I find it abhorrent that drs must break the law to end the pointless suffering of a baby (or an adult for that matter). Should either myself or a child of mine (or my dh) be in a situation that was terminal, painful and inescapable, I would hope that there would be courageous people around willing to put themselves on the line to do the humane thing - end the pain and suffering.

our little treasures
07-02-2007, 15:23
I find it abhorrent that drs must break the law to end the pointless suffering of a baby (or an adult for that matter). Should either myself or a child of mine (or my dh) be in a situation that was terminal, painful and inescapable, I would hope that there would be courageous people around willing to put themselves on the line to do the humane thing - end the pain and suffering.

:thumbsup: I agree!

SassyMummy
07-02-2007, 15:52
I am in favour of any sort of euthanasia, and helping the process of death to be more comfortable... so in a sense, I can understand these doctors and agree with their methods.

The problem for me is, doctor's aren't always right. A doctor declaring that there is no hope for a child does not mean that the child WILL die soon, and it's just a question of pain relief or slow painful death. Doctors get it wrong (as TwoBlue proved with the story of a little boy). I think that's potentially where the problem lies.

An adult is a different case - they can, potentially, make the choice themselves (well, if it were legal they could)... but a baby cannot. Helping along the process of death might mean a less painful death, but it could also mean a premature death, where death wasn't imminent (despite doctors declaring it was).

I guess that's where it gets difficult...

mumofcaleb
07-02-2007, 16:02
I think it's the height of hypocrisy to allow a child to starve or suffocate, but not to allow its passing to be made swift and painless. What exactly is the thinking there?

I mean, if someone starved or suffocated a healthy child, they'd be morally and legally guilty of murder, just the same as if they'd actively killed it - so they're just as involved whichever route they take.

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for euthanasia. I don't want to linger in pain myself, and I'd never force that on anyone else. If I forced it on a dog, I'd be arrested for cruelty.

I just think it's horribly misguided for the law to demand that the process of euthanasia cause the maximum amount of possible suffering. If the doctors have the courage to make it quick and painless (and believe you me, it would take a lot), they shouldn't be punished for doing so.

I totally agree with you Mister Noodle.

Mister Noodle
07-02-2007, 16:32
SM:

But removing food/oxygen DOES mean they will die soon. Yes, all sorts of miraculous recoveries happen - but not with life support removed.

Whether or not people should make the call in the first place is a fair question. But having made that call, it ceases to be the point - all that matters is the reduction of suffering. And forcing a 'hands off' approach is pretty much the worst possible way of achieving that IMHO.

sam's mum
07-02-2007, 18:45
My aunt had bowel cancer and towards the end the doctors just stopped caring about how much morphine she was having. She was allowed to have however much it took to ease the pain that she was in. One day she just didn't wake up.

She was in sooo much pain and can tell us that. It is much harder for a baby to express their pain.

I agree with Mr Noodle, once the decision has been made, it is just a question of how easy or hard it will be for the rest of their life.

SixtiesChild
07-02-2007, 21:23
IMO there appears to be a lack of respect for the parents. :barf:
Here's something to think about; If the DR's are ready to take the law into their own hands, can the parents likewise take the law into their own hands against the DR?
A Life for a Life?

misskittyfantastico
07-02-2007, 21:32
I think AND in my experience with the situation of terminally ill people. They were taken from the hospital and were cared for at home - much pain relief-it's a complex issue...It was supremely beautful, their passing, and that is what I would want for my parent, partner or child.

Ana Gram
07-02-2007, 21:33
Errr, how bout no.

To me there is a huge difference in allowing someone who is going to die, to die without pain rather than by being deprived of oxygen or being starved to death and killing a healthy person.

misskittyfantastico
07-02-2007, 21:37
Errr, how bout no.

To me there is a huge difference in allowing someone who is going to die, to die without pain rather than by being deprived of oxygen or being starved to death and killing a healthy person.

I'm curious of what you mean - I'm prolly being oversensitive - but no one has been in pain, they have been pretty much "on the drugs"....I think I agree with you:p

Ana Gram
07-02-2007, 21:40
I'm curious of what you mean - I'm prolly being oversensitive - but no one has been in pain, they have been pretty much "on the drugs"....I think I agree with you:p

Quite obviously you type faster than me! I was answering the post above your :o

misskittyfantastico
07-02-2007, 21:41
s'cool fellow aquarium....mine is the 11th btw:p