Baby Boys - Foreskin on or off?

[mumalinz]

Hi,

MY DH wants my son Circumcised and I do not. What do I ?

:confused:

[mumalinz]

Hi,

My husband is very certain that he wants our DS circumcised... This is such a touchy topic for me and my DH as we have different views on it.

I just keep thinking that my son is the innocent one and why should he have to go through an operation to remove skin from his perfectly normal healthy penis just because his father has his done?

What do I do? DH is so for it and I am not so keen on it??

I can't even bring the topic up with him at the moment as it makes me feel sick to the stomach to think of it..

Should he respect my choice or should I respect his???

Can anyone tell me the benefits of it?
Rather than just doing it for cosmetic reasons to look like dad???

:confused:

[the_queen]

There are no benefits to genital cosmetic surgery.

Ask him to watch a video of it being done. You can find them on the net, sadly I can't post the link here :mad:

Ask him if he would insist on having his daughter circumcised? If not - why is his son any different?


If it was me, my husband would have to literally kill me before I would allow genital surgery. Literally, over my dead body. Regardless of his personal issues about penis', that baby relies on YOU his mummy to protect him. A lot of circumcised men will insist that circumcision is necessary - because if they admit that circ is bad, then they're saying their own penis is bad.

Let me know if you want a link to a circ video, I'll PM it to you.

[*Chels*]

Personally,I havent done it to my son.I never would.Its just wrong.To do it"JUST SO HE LOOKS LIKE HIS DAD" is lame.
Im not even going to get started.My advice is to do lots of research and have a in depth conversation about it.
Research all the reasons why you dont want to do it and let him find reasons why you should.
Im sure you will win the debate

[mumalinz]

I am going to have to out my foot down...I will do some research on the net and write a few things down and yes sit down and talk to DH, I knowhe will be offended and perhaps even hurt as he has told me how important it is to him that his son is circ.
I just dont agree and i feel like it is wrong in my heart.. I am going to be in the bad books for a long time maybe even the rest of my life with DH but my DS is worth that.
I was also going to say or go down the path of let our DS make that decision when he can? Like if he is 18years old and really wants to have no foreskin then he can get it removed. Its his body his life,...!!! Why should we make that choice for him now?

[borntobemummy]

To be honest, I don't see any reason (besides possibly medical) that a boy should be circumsised.

In saying that though, it is important for your marriage relationship that you can both agree or meet each other in the middle (not really possible in this case lol). Maybe it would be good to turn to a third party for support/mediation to help you come to a resolution.

In our marriage, I generally submit to my DH as head of the house (we are Christian), but if it is something I fundementally believe is wrong or harmful (especially with an innocent third party involved) it becomes tricky. I think a mediator friend or counsellor would be best in this situation.:o

[borntobemummy]

I was also going to say or go down the path of let our DS make that decision when he can? Like if he is 18years old and really wants to have no foreskin then he can get it removed. Its his body his life,...!!! Why should we make that choice for him now?

I was going to suggest that too:yes:

[Beany]

Of all the possible reasons for circumcision, to look like daddy is probably the absolute worst. What if the baby had an outty belly button and your husband had an inny - would that need to be surgically altered too? What about if one had a big nose and one had a small one? Ears? Hair colour?

If your husband responds with (understandable) scorn with any of those examples, ask him why it's okay to have those features, that are more likely to be seen and compared by other people, be different but not the penis, which is hidden.

[borntobemummy]

yeah, I think that argument kinda falls apart the more you think about it. I know I've tried to explain it to DH why some ppl do it, but I just can't get my mind around it.

[mumalinz]

I dont want to loose sleep over it anymore as I get none as it is with DS but I need to make a final stand and say NO...

I will work it out keep you updated.

My DH loves me very much and I think once he really really knows just how much I am against it he will hopefully understand...!!!!!! :fingerscrossed:

LInz
goodnight

[Pippi Longstocking]

H(i didnt circumcise him, just made him watch the video)

Glad ya cleared that up! :eek: :laughing:

Just wanted to concur with all that has been said thus far. 'Specially the part about suggesting he does the research. Perhaps you could say that you will research the negatives and present him with what you find and he could research the positives and present you with what he finds? Because that way, he is sure to discover that all the research out there suggests that there is no medical advantage to modifying the genitals and most people agree that they are best left intact.

Oh and I agree completely with what The_Queen said about why men often suggest that their sons genitals need to look like their own. If they admit that a circumcised penis is flawed, then they are admitting that their own penis is somehow inferior. As you are probably aware, most men cannot handle the thought of anything negative being said about their penises as they feel that that reflects badly on their manhood. It's his issue - let him come to terms with the fact that his parents consented to his genitals being surgically modified (with all good intentions, of course) but don't make toe same mistake. Other wise, the cycle will just perpetuate.

[Pobblebonk]

Recently, there was a socialolgist professor of some university in either UK or USA that was broadcast on TV explaining how little boys need to look like their friends, not like their fathers. Its their friends they'll be in change rooms with, and discussing things like that with. Not their fathers.

And recently there was an article about a study done in Africa on how circumcision did reduce the rate of males in Africa getting HIV. BUT, with so many people in Africa having HIV, that study is being heavily debated as being valid because at some point they'll more than likely end up getting HIV anyway, because hardly anyone uses condoms.

It is a personal choice that parents need to decide. I'm glad that my ex and I were both against it. His mother is dead set for it for cleanliness reasons, but I think that's a bit of a cop out because it can't be THAT hard teaching your sons how to keep themselves clean. Her other son has 2 sons of his own and he got them circ'd to keep his mother happy.

And she was pressuring us to have Mr Chicken circ'd even though one of her sons had a botched circ at birth and had to wait until he was 8 years old before it could be corrected.

I wouldn't even dream of surgically modifying my daughter, so why my son?

I think the best way for you to approach it is to do research of your own, especially the video the_queen is talking about where they have to STRAP THE BABY DOWN and present it to your partner.

Good luck!

[FourAngelKisses]

Just wondering what your husbands reasons are for wanting your son to have the chop?

[kiah]

Of all the possible reasons for circumcision, to look like daddy is probably the absolute worst. What if the baby had an outty belly button and your husband had an inny - would that need to be surgically altered too? What about if one had a big nose and one had a small one? Ears? Hair colour?

If your husband responds with (understandable) scorn with any of those examples, ask him why it's okay to have those features, that are more likely to be seen and compared by other people, be different but not the penis, which is hidden.

very very well said (its a nope from me too...its not my penis)

[Wish_Bear]

I left the decision up to my DH but he siad no to circ. He isn't so he said there was no way DS was going to be. I actually wanted him to be because my dad and brother are, and I just thought that was the norm but years before we had DS we were discussing kids and DH said if we have a boy then no circ. He said you don't circ a girl so why circ a boy?? There is no need for the procedure IMO!!

[kristy J]

i say do it.

my DH and i are having our son done after birth i watched a vidio of my cousins son done being done. they watched, and it was quick and easy.

ALSO my nephews have to get done now at 6 & 4 because they both have problems. i have met sooooo many people with boys who have problems later on.

i have never met a guy who cares they were done. i am sure some do but i don't know any.

because you don't want to cause them pain isn't a good enough reason not to do it. lots of things in life cause pain. make sure your decision in based on what you think is best for baby not your motherly instincts.

make what decision is right for him.

[SilverStarfish]

DH and I discussed this before we were even TTC and I'm glad we agreed that we would not be circumsizing any male children (or female!)

It wouldn't matter if we didn't though, this is one issue that I would not have cave on, regardless of what he thought or said.

I am personally dead-set against the procedure and while I respect the right of other parents to do what they think is right, no son of mine will ever be circumsized. No Way, No How.

[kiah]

it ca cause sexual problems later on for some and even desensitivity

[Milliner]

Looks like Daddy" come on what a joke that is. What is with these men, are they really going to compare oh look we are the same, is it really going to cause your son trauma later in life if he doesn't look like him. I don't think so. Sorry it just frustrates the hell out of me.

Do alot of research print it out and give it to him. Speak to a doctor and get him/her to explain to your partner the ins and outs of it all. I am sure they will tell him that it is not necessary. Just have a google search and you will find alot of info like this site
http://www.stopinfantcircumcision.org/SICspock.htm

[Milliner]

because you don't want to cause them pain isn't a good enough reason not to do it. lots of things in life cause pain. make sure your decision in based on what you think is best for baby not your motherly instincts.



Don't cause a child unnecessary pain I think that is a good enough reason.

[Beany]

because you don't want to cause them pain isn't a good enough reason not to do it. lots of things in life cause pain. make sure your decision in based on what you think is best for baby not your motherly instincts.


Unnecessary pain for an unnecessary procedure is a pretty good reason not to go through it.

If the child requires circumcision due to complications later on, then fair enough - at least he'll be able to get anaesthetic then. Besides, at that point it stops being unnecessary. I don't think the (very small) chance of there being some sort of problem later on means you should do away with the foreskin "just in case".

[Ashleigh<3]

In my opinion no part of a newborns body should be surigically altered just to put an ease at Daddy or Mummies mind.

There are completely understandable situations as to why circumcision is needed in certain situations. I believe in leaving my future son, (which I will have one day :)) very much intact.
He was born with those body parts. They were just meant to be where they were put. If the time comes when he gets older and there is a medical problem where he needs to have it done, that is when we will make the right decision for that situation.

DF is circumcised, and I know his Mother becomes offended when she hears my views and opinions on this, only because she actually feels bad for what she has done to her three sons. DF is fine, and happy with his nether regions, and when we were deciding what to do I was quite uneducated on the subject. I asked DF what he wanted to do and he said, "well, they say it's cleaner". I wasn't going to settle for that! Any boy wether he's circumcised or not should be fully informed on how to keep their 'little guy' cleansed.
Just because a boy isn't circumcised does not mean he will suffer in the cleaning department!

I looked up a lot of information on this and when i showed DF he agreed how cruel it seemed and we both realised it was not a decision that we should make. Our baby will be able to make that decision for himself one day, it is his body! Not ours. :)

[FourAngelKisses]

My ears would probably be cleaner too if I got them cut off, but I'm not going to do it, lol.

[mumofcaleb]

Leave it on unless for medical reasons!

[Ashleigh<3]

make what decision is right for him.

This is what I don't understand.

I'm aware this is your personal preference on the subject but how does one know what their baby wants, how does one know this is right for their son, when their son can't even speak at birth. "HEY YOU, CUT OFF MY FORESKIN PLEASE, I CAN'T STAND THE THING, DON'T WORRY, I'M NOT IN ANY PAIN, I'M JUST CRYING BECAUSE I CAN!"...

Sorry, I'm just a little confused...

[Mister Noodle]

A few good arguments to whack him over the head with:

Less than 5% of intact males seek circumcision as adults. Therefore, you can be 95% certain that infant circumcision goes against what your child would want, given the judgement and experience to choose for himself.

[text deleted by moderator]

[tweedledee*tweedledum]

Anyway back to the OP. I think that both of you need to be in TOTAL agreeance of what you want to do. I don't think you should be pushed into having a circumcision performed just because your partner wants it, otherwise it will cause major issues for you later on and you will always regret it. Personally, I would try and give him as much information against the procedure so he can see your point of view and go from there.

[Zada]

why cause a child pain 'just incase' they may need one later? if it turns out they need one for medical reasons later then deal with it then

[Wish_Bear]

Don't cause a child unnecessary pain I think that is a good enough reason.

:yes: :yes: I completely agree!!

[Pippi Longstocking]

i say do it.

my DH and i are having our son done after birth i watched a vidio of my cousins son done being done. they watched, and it was quick and easy.

Quick and easy for who? Most likely not for the baby....


ALSO my nephews have to get done now at 6 & 4 because they both have problems. i have met sooooo many people with boys who have problems later on. [deleted]I don't know any. I do know of one child that had one due to an entirely unrelated genital condition and the foreskin was used to rebuild his penis but I don't know anybody that has had "problems later on" that require adult circumcsions. But regardless if I know them or not, any adult male that has problems that require a circumcision can consent to one if they deem it necessary.


i have never met a guy who cares they were done. i am sure some do but i don't know any.
Read through the forums here. You will find a few stories of men that resent their parents consenting to circumcision.

[deleted by moderator]


make what decision is right for him. A point we can agree on! I concur, we all ought to try to make the decision that is right for our children. I deem invasive, amputative, unnecessary, painful surgery on their genitals as something that is not right for my boys.

[Ashleigh<3]

*bows down to Guv'nor*CHANTS! *"We're not worthy, WE'RE NOT WORTHY!!"*

Haha! Sorry, I was just very impressed with your post. :)

[Becteria]

No chop for this little smurf. No way! MY DH would never let me and would never do it.

I* second the vote, Gov for PM!

[Beany]

Yeah well Guv'nor, what would YOU know? YOU like RAINBOWS! :eek:

[Sheer Bliss]

I definately agree with getting him to do the research, he is going to find out a lot more info for himself that way. Also a mediator of some sort to help out if you really can't decide. the other thing to make sure he is aware of is the lack of drs willing to perform the op (from what i hear). Many refuse to do it as thy believe it is unecessary.

I am sooo grateful that this is one area DH and i agree 100% DS WILL NOT be getting the chop.

[shed]

We haven't had our son cut and we agreed on this before he was born.

I read in one of my psychology books that its more important for DS to look the same as his peers than his Dad. We want him to grow up physically and emotionally healthy and will do all that we can with the information we have in making this happen.

In the meantime we will keep an eye out for any problems and teach him to keep himself clean.

its not routinely done anymore so your boy will be the odd one out. thats a bit unfair.

[Gumby]

My boy is keeping his skin :D

[SairBear]

after getting quite upset about this topic when i didnt know what sex bub was gonna be.. i decided to leave it in DPs hands and let him choose if our son was to be circ or not . I gave him stuff to research etc... i saved alot of links to favourites on the comp and told him to read, then one day out of the blue he told me we wouldnt be getting bub circ ... i was amazed... he had read and seen all links and had decided no ... i must say im happy with his decision...

[mumalinz]

I had the talk with my DH about 3 hours ago...
We just got back from a walk which is always good to approach and talk about things .. So I thought I would bring it up.

Well at first he was mad & he really wanted our DS Circ'd and was not changing his mind...!! He was so sure about it. NO he is going to look like me and get it done. I want him done..thats all I ask for.

After I slowly explained my reasons for not wanting the procedure he began to listen and perhaps undertsand where I was coming from.

I said he is a little person and its an operation they have to put him to sleep with a needle and then cut off his skin and bandage him up.

Then you have to give him panadol every 4hours for two -three days and dress and clean his penis and make sure it does not get infected. If it gets infected it cause massive pain especially when he wee's. Its discomfort. He will be screaming and crying.

I said I was not prepared to put my baby through that pain. I love him to much. I started crying.

What if they mess up the operation and he is perm scared or damaged ? I was not prepared to risk it.

It was difficult and I could tell he was upset even maybe a bit hurt .

Ironically when we got home we got a phone call from his cousin as we are trying to organise a BBQ for my DH 30th, anyway his cousin is also Circ'd who has also just had a son.... so I asked him flat out if they were going to Circumcise thier son and he sad " NO" no-one does it anymore...!!!! I want my son to look like his mates and Im sure he will shower everyday to clean it so why bother put him through the pain??
My husband was shocked but I think it sunk in that it was not the everyday thing to do now.

my DH ended up saying "I guess if you really don't want him done then we want DO IT...!!!!!! " but he also added..(dont blame me if he gets an infection or he has problems with keeping it clean mmmmmm:confused:

I don't know I hope I have done the right thing..I dont want my DH to resent me or DS because he has a foreskin...!!!!!

Im a a bit sad. :crying: Sometimes its so complicated.

[Beany]

Your husband will be too busy pulling silly faces at him/chucking him in the air/rugby tackling him to even notice whether your son has a foreskin or not.

:hugs:

[mum33]

i have always been against it. i once saw pics on the internet of a baby being circ. then they showed pictures of grown males circ. penis and how gross and dry and shrivelled they looked because they had no foreskin to stop them from drying out. both made me wanna :barf:. do all circumcised penis look like that? i havent seen many so i wouldnt really know. but the whole business of it is :barf:.

soooo glad DP isnt circumcised.

some people have some really stupid reasons why they circumcise and i cant believe people still even do it these days....:confused:

[kristi001]

[deleted by moderator]

No but seriously its up to you and your husband and if you guys have any doubt about it then i woudnt get it done...
You can decide late on if you want to do it but if you do it there is no turning back...

Goodluck with your decision like most parenting decisions its a hard one :hugs:

[melfunction]

My boy is totally intact including fingers, toes, ears and foreskin.

[Tulp]

We wanted to get DS circumsised because we both felt it was cleaner and healthier. DH had to get it done at 2 because of medical reasons. His mom said it broke her hurt to see him in pain before the opp. We did not want DS, couple of years down the road, to end up with a similiar condition. After some discussion we both decided to hold off and only cross that bridge when we come to it.

Personally I do agree a circumcised penis IS much cleaner, healthier and without a doubt looks better.

[kiah]

Actually the risk is quite high. And im sure if it hurt, wouldnt he have been crying?
I do think they are hard to clean, personally for me anyway, because I know a boy whose mother accidentally pulled it back to early to clean it, hence him having problems throughout his adulthood.
Also, I wouldnt have minded being partialy circ'ed when I was born either.. so as for the arguement we dont do girls why boys, that is not correct. A lot of women now days are going for partial circ's... men just wont put themselves through the pain even though they want it done, theyre chickens when it comes to pain :laughing: .
Either way, I think both sides of the argument are valid for different reasons, and I do not believe either of them are right or wrong, its just personal opinion on your outlook of the subject.

what women are going for partial circ's...am i understanding your thread...

[kiah]

I just hav to say that a penis is not hard to clean, neither is a vagina, or a bottom....

[kiah]

Regular women... what do you mean? lol. It is becoming more popular here, is already popular over in the US (as always is first). Some women, who have more skin than others, go and have cosmetic surgeory to have it removed, thus making them more sensitive (supposedly, not sure how that all works) but ive read a fair bit about it. I didnt mean over in africa where they chop the whole things off lol. It is elective surgeory or cosmetic purposes.

i can honestly say i do not know of anyone or anyone that knows someone who has had this done (for women). And in that case wouldnt it be deemed necessary if it was causing a sexual prob....just like if u need to remove a foreskin due to a sexual or medical prob....

coz if my mum and dad had made the decision to start messing around with my genitalia wen i was a bub i and i mean me personally would be disgusted with them. If i need to hav the surgery for medical reasons later then so b it.

Can i ask who here at bubhub that is female has had this done? Just curious...am i just totally unaware of what is going on....

[Mister Noodle]

An intact penis is exactly as clean as a circumcised one. If you don't wash, you're not clean anyway.

I've yet to see how 'having bits missing' equates to 'healthier'.

And as for your personal aesthetics - that's just not what men are.

Women aren't silicone-filled, twig-waisted blow-up-dolls that look like malnourished nine-year-olds in the throes of precocious puberty.

And men aren't trimmed, pink and smooth.

If someone said that some airbrushed, waxed, augmented and tucked pornstar 'without a doubt looks better' than real women, wouldn't you say they had some serious issues?

[Milliner]

And im sure if it hurt, wouldnt he have been crying?
I do think they are hard to clean, .... men just wont put themselves through the pain even though they want it done, theyre chickens when it comes to pain :laughing: .



Ok so you are saying that it didn't hurt your son because he wasn't crying, yet a grown man wouldn't get it done because of the pain factor.

The penis is very sensitive you can't tell me that it wouldn't hurt anyone no matter what age.

As for the cleaning you don't need to pull the forskin back if you spoke to a doctor of midwife or did a little reading on the subject it would say that it is not necessary to do so, all the books say that you need to clean a girl but no need to pull the foreskin back.

Extract from circumsicion.com (http://www.circumstitions.com/Care.html)

.
Leave it alone.

(2. Leave it alone.)

(3. Leave it alone.)

(Very similar to the special care required by the ears and the eyes, really.)

Babies

A baby's penis should be washed like any other part of his body, gently. No effort should be made to retract his foreskin and wash inside. In New Zealand, nurses were once instructed to start trying to retract the foreskin from birth and ensure that it was fully retractable by the end of a week. This doubtless caused many problems, resulting in the "need" for circumcisions. This mentality persists in many places, and it may be necessary to make sure that any new person examining the baby (including nurses, nannies and grandparents) is not a "retractor".

[Mister Noodle]

There's two kinds of surgery that you could be talking about, mrsgreen.

The first is labioplasty - trimming back the labia majora for a 'neater' apperance, and sometimes reducing the diameter of the vaginal opening for a tighter fit.

The second is a hoodectomy: removing part or all of the clitoral hood, to permanently expose the clitoris to direct contact.

Doing either of these to a child would be a terrible violation, IMO.

If the idea of having the clitoris permanently exposed is making anyone cringe... now imagine that instead of its current somewhat protected location, it were right on the outside, scraping against your clothes until wear and tear reduced the sensitivity enough that you could walk... because that's what male circumcision entails.

[Milliner]

If you take a look at the website you will find alot of information.

It is not necessary to retract the foreskin for cleaning on children until the age of six. This is because the foreskin is naturally stuck to the glans penis and, in some children, remains this way until five or six years. From this age, it is important to start gently retracting the foreskin when bathing or showering to allow for proper cleaning. Retracting to early may lead to infections.

Boys
The foreskin usually detaches itself from the glans and becomes retractable during babyhood and/or boyhood. The best person to discover this and encourage it is the boy himself. Again, Leave it alone

As it becomes retractable, the boy should be encouraged to wash underneath it, using mild soap, if any (remember, smegma is Greek for "soap"). Stronger soaps are implicated in balanitis (irritation of the glans), and particular suspicion falls on bubble baths.


Men

Some men have foreskins that still do not retract, and they are happy to leave them that way. If you are not (if you want it to retract for intercourse, for example) it can be freed non-surgically using an ointment (betamethasone 0.05% applied once or twice a day to the outside of the foreskin from the tip to about mid-glans for up to eight weeks), or surgically without circumcision. If you are in the US, this means looking for a foreskin-friendly urologist. A Japanese firm, Turumaki Corp., offers a do-it-yourself foreskin stretcher, the "Glansie".

[Pippi Longstocking]

Im with you Kristy, we had my son done when he was about 4 weeks old. He was only gone from us for about 3 minutes, and he only cried for about 30 seconds (literally)
Regardless of how long he cried for, you can be sure that the pain he would have felt would be excrutiating. Babies can go into shock after a circumcision which makes them very quiet and subdued. this doesn't mean they aren't in pain, quite the opposite.

not sure about all of you, but I dont know how to clean a foreskinned penis
Take 1 boy child, 1 bar of soap and combine in bath tub. Dry. Done.


plus if you damage it by doing it wrong they are going to be in pain all their life Don't pull the foreskin back. rather easy, eh!


(no 18 year old will EVER get it done no matter how screwed up their sex life is... I know this because I know ppl with these problems),
That sentence is quite clearly incorrect. Plenty of 18yos get circed if the need arises. That is why so many people use "but I don't want him to have to go through it as an adult!" as a reason for routine infant circumcision.


and Ive also seen a 6 yr old boy with an infection, they then have to go under a GENERAL anaesthetic to have it done. A general anaesthetic is, imo, a much kinder way to go about it. Obviously it carries risks which is why circumcision should only be performed on those who genuinely medically require one.


However, I do believe it really is one of those things that doesnt matter either way, it realistically depends on whether youve seen an infection penis or know some poor young adult who still has a painful sex life... or if youve never seen these things and believe its cosmetic. I disagree. It does matter either way. It matters to the owner of the penis. It -shouldn't- matter to the mother though. It isn't her penis. Inflicting her own sexual preference on her infant son is bordering on perverted. Infections can and do occur after circumcsion. An open wound carries a far greater risk of infection than an intact penis.

I do not believe in getting it done if you purely think it is for cosmetic reasons. Mine was to avoid surgeory one day under a general if it had to happen, as the pain and risk is far great doing it before they are 6wo. So you gave him surgery to help him avoid surgery? I am seeing flawed logic here....

Just keep in mind, the whope procedure itself takes less than 1 minute, and 2 minutes to undress and redress! But the effects last a life time.


The online video gives you a false sense it lasts longer. And you dont see it anyway unless you elect to enter the room. If you cannot bare to be in the same room due to the trauma of witnessing your child in agony, perhaps if you could avoid it, maybe you ought not to do it?

And its only in Australia they have stopped circumcizing, its still popular in most of the rest of the world (not all though). You only have to check our recent porn films to realise its not a worldwide trend to stop anymore. Porn films usually involve adult males. Therefore, it is clearly not a great guide to rely on when trying to establish if most boys are left intact or circumcised.


Anyway, I would never stick any part of my body near a uncirc penis again, most men I have known with them, do not clean then properly! I find the naked penis much more attractive. As is your choice. My experience has been quite the opposite. It's a matter of being discerning - a dirty penis will be a dirty penis regardless of whether it's been circumcised.

[kiah]

There's two kinds of surgery that you could be talking about, mrsgreen.

The first is labioplasty - trimming back the labia majora for a 'neater' apperance, and sometimes reducing the diameter of the vaginal opening for a tighter fit.

The second is a hoodectomy: removing part or all of the clitoral hood, to permanently expose the clitoris to direct contact.

Doing either of these to a child would be a terrible violation, IMO.

If the idea of having the clitoris permanently exposed is making anyone cringe... now imagine that instead of its current somewhat protected location, it were right on the outside, scraping against your clothes until wear and tear reduced the sensitivity enough that you could walk... because that's what male circumcision entails.

can anybody tell me if what mrs green is saying is true....are heaps of women getting this done....

and yes...its making me cringe:barf:

[Pippi Longstocking]

There's two kinds of surgery that you could be talking about, mrsgreen.

The first is labioplasty - trimming back the labia majora for a 'neater' apperance, and sometimes reducing the diameter of the vaginal opening for a tighter fit.

The second is a hoodectomy: removing part or all of the clitoral hood, to permanently expose the clitoris to direct contact.

Doing either of these to a child would be a terrible violation, IMO.

If the idea of having the clitoris permanently exposed is making anyone cringe... now imagine that instead of its current somewhat protected location, it were right on the outside, scraping against your clothes until wear and tear reduced the sensitivity enough that you could walk... because that's what male circumcision entails.

:eek: *clamps legs shut, doubles over, wipes tears from eyes....*

[Mister Noodle]

The foreskin naturally de-adheres by itself after a few years, allowing retraction.

While it's adhered, there's no space between it and the glans, so there's nothing that needs cleaning.

Once it's free, it does need cleaning, but with no effort involved - it's almost exactly like 'shooting your cuffs' to look at your watch.

[kristi001]

My boy is totally intact including fingers, toes, ears and foreskin.


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I had to laugh when i seen that one..

[SalTheGal]

Well I am going to jump in here to give mrsgreen some support, and can I just say first and foremost that with all you lovely anti circ women circling ready to pounce it actually takes some guts to post!

I got my son circ'd when he was three weeks old, and I am so glad thats the decision I chose to make



Well at first he was mad & he really wanted our DS Circ'd and was not changing his mind...!! He was so sure about it. NO he is going to look like me and get it done. I want him done..thats all I ask for.

After I slowly explained my reasons for not wanting the procedure he began to listen and perhaps undertsand where I was coming from.

I said he is a little person and its an operation they have to put him to sleep with a needle and then cut off his skin and bandage him up.

Then you have to give him panadol every 4hours for two -three days and dress and clean his penis and make sure it does not get infected. If it gets infected it cause massive pain especially when he wee's. Its discomfort. He will be screaming and crying.

What if they mess up the operation and he is perm scared or damaged ? I was not prepared to risk it.

Ironically when we got home we got a phone call from his cousin as we are trying to organise a BBQ for my DH 30th, anyway his cousin is also Circ'd who has also just had a son.... so I asked him flat out if they were going to Circumcise thier son and he sad " NO" no-one does it anymore...!!!! I want my son to look like his mates and Im sure he will shower everyday to clean it so why bother put him through the pain??
My husband was shocked but I think it sunk in that it was not the everyday thing to do now.


OK- firstly I agree- it is a poor reason 'just to look like daddy'

The baby doesn't get put to sleep with a needle

They rub some anaesthetic gel on the area first so they don't actually feel anything

They procedure is literally a couple of minutes- my DS slept through the whole thing

We did not have to administer panadol once, and there is really no need to cleaning (in fact I didn't even touch it) and no dressings involved.

A smear of vas on the nappy is the only thing required.

He was his happy usual self after the procedure- I think I was more upset!

Have you researched the chances of infection? They are very slim, the uroligist who I went to had never had a patient get an infection, or had a patient who had complications/damaged/etc

And it is actually on the increase again, not dwindling.


i have always been against it. i once saw pics on the internet of a baby being circ. then they showed pictures of grown males circ. penis and how gross and dry and shrivelled they looked because they had no foreskin to stop them from drying out. both made me wanna :barf:. do all circumcised penis look like that? i havent seen many so i wouldnt really know. but the whole business of it is :barf:.

soooo glad DP isnt circumcised.

some people have some really stupid reasons why they circumcise and i cant believe people still even do it these days....:confused:

Ummm, my DF is circ'd and it sure ISN'T "gross and dry and shrivelled" as you put it, I actually think it is WAY more attractive than an uncirc'ed one. Personally I get freaked out by uncirc'ed ones- going there in a sexual nature justs grosses me out!


and Ive also seen a 6 yr old boy with an infection, they then have to go under a GENERAL anaesthetic to have it done.
However, I do believe it really is one of those things that doesnt matter either way, it realistically depends on whether youve seen an infection penis or know some poor young adult who still has a painful sex life... or if youve never seen these things and believe its cosmetic.
I do not believe in getting it done if you purely think it is for cosmetic reasons. Mine was to avoid surgeory one day under a general if it had to happen, as the pain and risk is far great doing it before they are 6wo.
I hope you and hubby can come to an agreement on the issue. Just keep in mind, the whope procedure itself takes less than 1 minute, and 2 minutes to undress and redress! The online video gives you a false sense it lasts longer. And you dont see it anyway unless you elect to enter the room.
SW33 no they dont all look like that at all. And its only in Australia they have stopped circumcizing, its still popular in most of the rest of the world (not all though). You only have to check our recent porn films to realise its not a worldwide trend to stop anymore. Anyway, I would never stick any part of my body near a uncirc penis again, most men I have known with them, do not clean then properly! I find the naked penis much more attractive.

As Mrsgreen said- the video definitely gives you a false sense- I think it is presented to give a biast view of the procedure.

I am another one who has known quite a few boys/men who have had to get it done later in life cause of complications- one was a previuos boyfriend of mine, and I would never wish the pain he went through on anyone!

Lastly, before I get pounced on there is a pro circ thread which can even up the argument a little bit, maybe take the time to read it to get feed back from both sides- cause there are not too many who will have to guts to post here as we all know we will get crucified pretty quickly!:D

Good luck with your decision which ever way you go!

[ziggie]

The foreskin naturally de-adheres by itself after a few years, allowing retraction.

While it's adhered, there's no space between it and the glans, so there's nothing that needs cleaning.

Once it's free, it does need cleaning, but with no effort involved - it's almost exactly like 'shooting your cuffs' to look at your watch.

Thanks Mr N :laughing: I was meaning to ask the mchn when to start doing that on my DS!


(and it's good to see you again in another circ debate ;) )

[Milliner]

Regardless of how long he cried for, you can be sure that the pain he would have felt would be excrutiating. Babies can go into shock after a circumcision which makes them very quiet and subdued. this doesn't mean they aren't in pain, quite the opposite.




I disagree. It does matter either way. It matters to the owner of the penis. It -shouldn't- matter to the mother though. It isn't her penis. Inflicting her own sexual preference on her infant son is bordering on perverted. Infections can and do occur after circumcsion. An open wound carries a far greater risk of infection than an intact penis.
So you gave him surgery to help him avoid surgery? I am seeing flawed logic here....
But the effects last a life time.

If you cannot bare to be in the same room due to the trauma of witnessing your child in agony, perhaps if you could avoid it, maybe you ought not to do it?


As is your choice. My experience has been quite the opposite. It's a matter of being discerning - a dirty penis will be a dirty penis regardless of whether it's been circumcised.

Yep Yep Yep Agree again.

[andrewJ]

However, I do believe it really is one of those things that doesnt matter either way.

I would normally not mind what you think, and clearly you are allowed to believe whatever you like, but you should not be allowed to make a decision concerning needless, harmful and permanent surgery for any other person, based on your beliefs (which are seriously misguided).


it realistically depends on whether youve seen an infection penis or know some poor young adult who still has a painful sex life... or if youve never seen these things and believe its cosmetic.

dont pretend its anything more than cosmetic surgery. I noticed your closing sentence "I find the naked penis much more attractive."

having a normal penis does not cause "painful sex life". You seem to think this is routine?!!
painful sex can however be CAUSED by circumcision.

An "infection penis" does not justify removing body parts before they become infected, why not remove all your teeth before they rot?

removing HEALTHY body parts to 'avoid surgeory' is simply not a logical thing to do. It makes no sense at all. if you disagree, what else do you suggest we amputate?

Circumcision is a victorian medical fad, akin to frontal lobotomies.


And its only in Australia they have stopped circumcizing, its still popular in most of the rest of the world

This is simply utterly untrue. In most of the world it never ever was popular, nor will it ever be. in some European countries such as Finland it is practically illegal.
Im amazed that people so ignorant on the matter are allowed to make life changing decisions for a third party.


Remember that it is the skin on the penis that contains the nerve endings. It is the skin that experiences sex, not the blood vessels underneath.
there are many different types of nerve endings, that sense different types of touch. Circumcision removes almost ALL of the fine touch receptors. It limits the owners experience of sex.

[kristi001]

Huh?
No its not, ??? did you actually do any research on this topic or are you just guessing. Its becoming less popular because its an unneccesary procedure.

BTW, good point Mr. Noodle...again


I honeslty dont think You would know how popular it really is.. specially on bubhub.

Just in experiences i have been ( and i know alot of other mums) pushed away from telling people there reasons for circumcision because we are bombarded (sp) with questions on why they did it and told why it is wrong.

It is still popular in my circle of friends and family.. I dont know alot of people theat chose not to get their child done actually.

Going by the fact that i dont know what the rest of the world have done. I cant really comment on how popular it is.. I dont think many people can.

I think the difference between people who do circumcise and people that dont..

Is that people who get it done dont look down on the people that chose not to.. :)

Ok i have had my rant.. lol

[ziggie]

They rub some anaesthetic gel on the area first so they don't actually feel anything







Ummm, my DF is circ'd and it sure ISN'T "gross and dry and shrivelled" as you put it, I actually think it is WAY more attractive than an uncirc'ed one. Personally I get freaked out by uncirc'ed ones- going there in a sexual nature justs grosses me out!






As Mrsgreen said- the video definitely gives you a false sense- I think it is presented to give a biast view of the procedure.






Did he not cry when they did the snip?

How can you be grossed out? When penis's are erect, they all look the same!

How can they be showing a bias point of view? It is just showing the proceedure being done??? How is it presented in a bias way?

[melfunction]

They rub some anaesthetic gel on the area first so they don't actually feel anything

Yes, but they don't tell you this gel is NOT recommended for children under two yrs of age.

p.s welcome back andrew :)

[Mister Noodle]

I think the difference between people who do circumcise and people that dont..

Is that people who get it done dont look down on the people that chose not to..


Isn't that the defining characteristic of actions that people know are immoral?

Replace 'circumcise' in the above sentence with anything you consider to be bad.

"Stealing your neighbour's newspaper", or "playing kitten-tennis", ferinstance. The people that do so have nothing bad to say about those that don't. Those that, don't, however, have plenty to say about those that do.

Funny, that...

[SalTheGal]

***quoted post has been deleted***


I honeslty dont think You would know how popular it really is.. specially on bubhub.

Just in experiences i have been ( and i know alot of other mums) pushed away from telling people there reasons for circumcision because we are bombarded (sp) with questions on why they did it and told why it is wrong.

It is still popular in my circle of friends and family.. I dont know alot of people theat chose not to get their child done actually.

Going by the fact that i dont know what the rest of the world have done. I cant really comment on how popular it is.. I dont think many people can.

I think the difference between people who do circumcise and people that dont..

Is that people who get it done dont look down on the people that chose not to.. :)

Ok i have had my rant.. lol

Hear Hear, and a question for the anti's purely out of curiosity: if it is so bad- why is it still allowed to be performed?


Yes, but they don't tell you this gel is NOT recommended for children under two yrs of age.

p.s welcome back andrew :)

Well from my experience from working in pharmacies/ and pharmacueticals it has been sold many times for children under two- the "reccommendation" is often just that- a reccommendation, and under the guidance of a healthcare professional it is usually fine.

Ok well I have said my piece and choose not to enter arguments over what is right or wrong. I know I am happy with my choice- and I will do it again if i have another boy, and I refuse to be made to feel guilty about the choice I made.

[Pippi Longstocking]

Hear Hear, and a question for the anti's purely out of curiosity: if it is so bad- why is it still allowed to be performed?





Because up until recently, circumcision was socially acceptable. But people are becoming more aware, and over time it has become a less socially acceptable thing to do.
[deleted by moderator]

[melfunction]

Well from my experience from working in pharmacies/ and pharmacueticals it has been sold many times for children under two- the "reccommendation" is often just that- a reccommendation, and under the guidance of a healthcare professional it is usually fine.


And well, from MY experience as a dispensary tech and a nurse, I go with the recommendation of every doctor and pharmacist I have worked with.

[kristi001]

Isn't that the defining characteristic of actions that people know are immoral?

Replace 'circumcise' in the above sentence with anything you consider to be bad.

"Stealing your neighbour's newspaper", or "playing kitten-tennis", ferinstance. The people that do so have nothing bad to say about those that don't. Those that, don't, however, have plenty to say about those that do.

Funny, that...


I think its a matter of some people respect the choices they and other parents make regarding THEIR children. Some dont.

I dont agree with some of the things other parents chose to do but that does not mean i dont respect their right to make those choices.

[Mister Noodle]

If it's harmful and unnecessary, why on earth should we respect it?

[rynosmum]

This thread was closed today as it had travelled so very way off topic from the OP's question.

Arguments and off-topic discussion are not helpful for the OP to make a decision. Thank you to all who contributed constructively to the topic.